My Dad (89) desperately needs to be put in a home but my Mom won't do it. Options?

Please everyone with good sense, consider "reporting" posts that are very unhelpful and could be harmful.
Grace + Peace,
Bob

Lassie, not exactly sure where this has come from re op where mom won't put dad in nh, but know that when dad was placed on hospice after us being told he could stay in the hospital on inpatient kind then being told no, but being told he would probably only last a few more days, asked about them keeping him anyway they, too, said it would cost $3000 a day; for a long time I almost wish we'd just gone ahead and done it, then there wouldn't be any issue about that money he ended up leaving behind but now a situation's arisen that I think he would be glad we have it; anyway, when we went to the ER because I wasn't there and had to get there so for whatever reason they either thought he'd come by himself or been abandoned there, they called in social worker and the next day, after I'd gotten there, came in and asked if we were wanting him placed in a nursing home; now, we weren't at the time but later, after they'd been told there was no one to watch him at home, they said they would have to place him in one and wouldn't discharge him, until we got that worked out on a conditional temporary basis which in our case turned out to be permanent after all. But in op's case, that's definitely something she doesn't want to do, is the issue.

We did all the proper things through a lawyer about 10 years ago. Will, durable power of attorney, living will, transfer of house, etc. so we were lucky. Mom was home alone and as she declined, as difficult as that was, everything legal was in order. The time to talk about such things with parents is years before a crisis, and they will either consider their future or get furious with your 'interfering'! When Mom was in the ER, I asked they keep her for a few days till another relative could come up to help, and they said it would cost $3000 a day to keep her for no good reason, and that would probably be on a gurney in the hallway!....Later, visiting nurses said the ER will do that, trying to scare people, but all they could do would be send bills, an empty gesture as Mom had very little at that point. They told me if Mom did go to the ER again, I would have to tell them it was unsafe for Mom to come home, there was no one to watch her, and they would have to place her in a nursing home. They would not discharge her. Luckily, never had to put that to the test, but that is what nurses, social workers, and people at a church told me. That's what it came down to, leave Mom in the ER. Makes me shiver to think of that. Someday it may come to that, sadly. I wish you luck, it's a terrible situation.

to joyce125: whether you believe in spells or whatever, dementia cannot be "spelled away", its just possible that "the other woman" decided she didn't want your husband after all and not sure how your particular post had anything to do with the original posting. however I am glad you are now back happy with hubby.

oh, Private, I'm so sorry and so sorry so long in seeing this, not sure what been doing, although has been somewhat of a busy week but a similar thing happened to my cousin; his granddaughter, his only relative in his state, was appointed guardian, even though his sister wanted to be and he wanted to go to her state to live, but granddaughter's mother-in-law was the Director of Nursing for both his state and another one, so you know she had pull, and when that happened she, too, cut off contact with the rest of the family and ended up moving him closer to her into another nursing home; well, he was in one but supposed to have been only for rehab; now I thought his sister had enough money to hire a lawyer but apparently she must not have wanted it bad enough to spend the money, not really sure what that was about - money talks? finally his brother went to see him - not sure, sister didn't? - and found him practically comatose, couldn't get guardian/granddaughter to do anything, finally got nh to admit he was bad enough to be sent to the local hospital, which deemed him bad enough to be sent to the big city one, where he, yes, ended up passing away. And, yes, sister, at least thinks it was all about his money - don't think she was made executor of his estate or at least don't think she was made - well, it's not "heir" if there's a will, but anyway don't think she was to get anything after he passed - so sister thinks gd got it all beforehand as guardian - or at least, seemingly, nothing's been settled since he passed away almost 2 yrs. ago, at least according to his son who's been trying to find out what's been going on and she, gd, said she had nothing to do with it after he passed, but, wait a minute, I just realized her husband sold his house after he died; why didn't I pick up on that then? wait, I know and maybe that explains why he hasn't talked to me since, hm...at the time all I was concerned about was our genealogical stuff - he is "just" a cousin, to me, after all, but, still....they had put it all in storage - the kind you have to pay for, so you know what I was told about that, just like with my dil's grandmother, hm....so, yes, people do take advantage - something expecting to happen with dil's sister who has somebody on the other side expecting and already has come into a bunch of money from a settlement - maybe, if you're lucky, you can find a pro bono or cheap lawyer but hard to do - not sure what to say - sad situation

Countrymouse: I'm saying the CG file for DPOA, not the ill person with dementia! Certainly not!

debdaughter,

I don't know how dad is doing now because the lawyer guardian won't let me see him and I have no money to be able to hire my own lawyer. When the Guardian took over, she basically severed the relationship when I was told that I could no longer see dad at this time. The Guardian is avoiding me and won't return my phone calls and all I know is dad is declining according to her. I don't know what she's up to but in the end it seemed very suspicious to me. The lawyer guardian happens to be a daughter of our local prosecutor. Yes, prosecutors daughter! There's no way to fight in this particular case I was told even if they happen to be wrong. In other words, they can do whatever they want with dad, my surrogate dad, and there's not a thing I can do about it which is why many people in high positions take advantage because they don't expect people to be able to fight because most people (around here) have no money for lawyers. Again, people can take advantage and be totally in the wrong, and there's not a thing you can do unless you I have some serious money and hire a lawyer, and lawyers are very expensive as we all know. I may not know how dad is doing, but if the lawyer isn't going to return my calls and she's avoiding me, then apparently she's up to no good

private, they may have gotten law enforcement involved; they can do that if the situation warrants; that's what happened with a friend of mine's husband's aunt; the only person who would go that far was her daughter who lived out of state; she called the APS, who went out to her house, which was in about the same condition as your dad's apt. because she was in no condition to take of her place anymore, and when they saw it and her, brought law in and forcibly removed her; that may have even been how they were able to see in the first place, because she would have been like your dad and probably not just let them in voluntarily; hope your dad is doing well now

debdaughter,

From my own experience with dad, he was also very rigid against going into a nursing home. I did not know he was actually developing dementia but very slowly and gradually. He was also renting from a slumlord who was taking advantage of the tenants. When dad was the only one left, the slumlord really started taking advantage of dad but there was nothing I could do. This went on for quite a while until I started talking to dad about his future. I do know that dad was very much against going into a nursing home, and I don't why am I am because he was wanting to stay independent. I also know that at some point things got so bad to the point of having to turn to someone. At the time I never knew of the existence of APS or I would've turned to them much sooner. It wasn't until later that I started hearing a little bit about them during my desperate efforts to try to find some help. I just knew that I couldn't handle dad on my own. I knew there had to be help and resources out there, but I just couldn't find them. It seems to be endless circle I was going around in. Finally, I wandered into our local human services and told them about the situation and what I was facing but that I couldn't find any help. I told them about the Council on aging or karma but there didn't seem to be any help there because the problems kept reoccurring. The lady at the window directed me up the elevator and to the office of the APS, which is where I was finally able to talk through what I thought were the right people. I wondered why it seemed like they were really doing anything as the problems around dad continued. I finally got them to open up when they finally told me they couldn't do anything as long as dad was able to make decisions despite developing dementia among other bad situations. It was quite a while afterward that APS came to my door one day and told me they just moved my dad early that morning. I was given enough information to be able to help him at his new location. Yes, APS finally stepped in and moved dad to a better place. They had the resources and equipment that I lacked, because there was no way I was going to possibly get dad physically out of the slum he was living in and into the new place all by myself. The slumlord had been wanting to shut down the building for quite some time but he couldn't with dad living there, which is why he kept not paying the utility bills to his big apartment building and allowing other things to go wrong to hopefully drive dad out of the building. However, this did not happen as a slumlord was hoping. Not only was dad very rigid against going into a nursing home, but he was so rigid that he would not even move even if the house would've fell down around him, that's how bad that house was getting. The building was getting wild animals in the walls and even in the apartments. All but one apartment was empty. Dad was the only one still living in a nine apartment building. I don't know how the APS got the rest of the information from two other people, but somehow they did, and I'm glad they did because they were finally able to get dad out of there though I don't know how they did it. I do know that dad was not very open to strangers or letting people in. I'm sure that before I came around he wouldn't even answer the door, (and I'm pretty much the same way). It's sad that my surrogate dad had no family left and I was the closest one family that he had. Not being a blood relative really tied my hands because there was really not much I could do. I just couldn't stand to see dad in such a bad living condition on top of his declining health and developing dementia. Dad was put into a new place, but he was quickly taken to a nursing home after he was re-hospitalized for a second time. Dad used to smoke a long time ago, but the price of cigarettes made him give it up, which worked out for the better. Anyway, when dad was put into a nursing home, I'm surprised that they put him into one so close to the old house where he used to live because he could've easily walked off and went home. What I didn't know is that very nursing home happened to be equipped with an Alzheimer's wing that I never knew existed for many years. This is how they could put dad so close to home without him walking off. This is what transpired with dad. I don't know how the APS got through the fact dad was so rigid, but I can tell you they got him into proper housing that was much safer than where he was. Furthermore, they got him the help he needed whereas I could not.

this is also the case with hub's aunt and uncle - except, in their case, the expenses are credit card debt that I don't think should or would have to be paid, anyway, but that's that "old school" thinking as well; they made 'em; gotta pay 'em
also, reverseroles, agree; my dad also got out - don't even want to think about what happened - we had just talked about getting alarms but just hadn't gotten them - op might really want to consider that - we almost did run into issues with dad having gotten out - and winding up in the hospital - over that - and had things gone differently feel we most definitely would have had to have gotten them at that point - which would have been fine - but as part of that we discussed the locking situation - maybe I'm not sure what a deadbolt is - we did have two locks but neither required a key to get out but they definitely told us the same thing - you could not do that - we're still not sure whether they were both locked but having said that the regular lock - if it was locked - we wouldn't have thought he could unlock with his arthritic fingers it was so small so not exactly sure what happened; we were also right at the point of trying to get some more help because even with live-in 24 hr. care, with him having reached the point of being up and down all hours, that help just wasn't being able to get the rest they needed so we think that's what had happened; they just got so exhausted they fell asleep after having been up with him the night before, with dad having gone ahead and gotten up at his usual - or what had used to have been, he'd been sleeping later - time to do his "morning ablutions" but had normally been going back to bed - but this time - just about around a hour later when they woke up - he hadn't gone back to bed - doesn't take long, I realize - but also thankful at least the one doctor realized we had been trying to keep - no, allow - him to stay at home and have his freedom -
private1 - I'm not sure what you're saying did transpire with your surrogate dad and APS

Llamalover, not to split hairs but a person who cannot make valid decisions cannot, either, create a legal DPOA. If only this were simple.

I'm agreeing that your mom probably needs some kind of help caring for your dad. Have you looked into home health care? The only downfall is not having that kind of care at night. My elderly friend who died on January 3 had in home care but it was not available at night when he had the most trouble. I think this had something to do with why he frequented the ER because he was always calling the squad more and more over time. It seems like the last few weeks he was on his own, there were times he called the squad twice daily. There's got to be a pretty big hassle with the paramedics who could've easily been dealing with bigger issues than his. He was well able to take care of himself and to work through his issues but he just didn't want to. We were fortunate enough for him to be able to sleep in bed rather than a recliner. I don't agree with slipping in little white lies just to get the person to do what you want them to do and then to take something from them. There are some people who just won't fall for that trick, my surrogate dad was one of them as well as my friend who just died on January 3. They were way too smart to fall for such a trick as that because both of them were in the military during their younger years. I must admit but my elderly friend was much sharper to catch a lie, you just couldn't slip nothing past him, he was just too smart for that. This particular person was just that kind of person that required you to be constantly on your toes and doing the right thing. He may have been in his 90s, but he sure was sharp as a tack for that age.
I'm just sorry that these two elders ended up having to go to a nursing home. It was even said that my elderly friend could not go into a nursing home because he would die if he was placed there. It just seems like he hasn't been there that long and the person's statement turned out to be right. Being in a nursing home actually takes away a person's freedom because there are serious restrictions to observe. Your life just isn't your own anymore. If you've ever noticed that any time you walk into a nursing home to visit someone that you feel like turning tail and leaving because you feel the presence of a loss of freedom as well as death. It's an awfully depressing existence even for an outsider to pick up on. Imagine having to live in such a place, no fun. This is why there are programs to keep the elders at home longer, one of those programs is home healthcare and case management. They don't stay there all the time, just for the times they are needed to do their work and then they're gone. Afterwords the person is free to go and do their own thing. It may very well be that your mom may very well need some help taking care of your dad. I would also alert your local APS as mentioned here. The only thing you're going to have to be very aware of is that they may not help right away. I faced this with my surrogate dad when I knew there was no more I could do and I was reaching my limits end. I knew at some point I would need help from someone with more authority than me and also someone who has far more resources than me. That came with my surrogate dad when the APS came to my door and let me know what just transpired. In fact, I'm actually surprised dad even answered the door or was even home because he usually left early in the morning. There are some people who just don't want to answer the door for no one but there were times dad started answering the door just because I was around. However, some people just won't answer the door at all, especially when they live alone or they're taking care of children. You may face some challenges when approaching the local APS about this particular matter. Another place you may want to alert is the local health department because of the soiling that may not be cleaned up in a timely matter after it's done. This is definitely a health hazard. If you don't have success with the local APS, perhaps the health department can get them involved especially if you have pictures to back up your claim about the soiling. My elderly friend actually started soiling himself at some point, but I just don't know how long it went on before it became obvious when he soiled all over the bathroom. I guess he made a mess in his pants and somehow it got all over the bathroom floor around the toilet and even all over the toilet. I'm wondering if he actually didn't do it on purpose to keep others from using the bathroom. Some people are very sharp in their old age and it would definitely surprise you.

From what you described, it sounds like your mom also took her vows very seriously. She also may not have the money to put your dad into an NH. There may be two incomes coming in to help pay all expenses, and the loss of one income could spiral her into serious debt if she can't pay the bills on one income. It may very well be that they're already barely making it financially and they may actually be struggling financially to stay afloat, and even one unexpected medical expense would be enough to drain what little money they may have. This may actually be why your mom won't take your dad to the doctor or even the hospital. It may be that maybe they don't even have a coverage because perhaps I can't afford it along with financial struggles. They may be in just the right spot where they're actually stuck between poverty and riches. When you're stuck in such a spot, you can't get the needed help but you can't afford to pay expensive out-of-pocket expenses either. Things like this is what many people face every day. Sometimes it's food or medicine but not both. It may be that after all the bills are paid there's just no room for medical expenses or even insurance let alone nursing home costs. This is something to consider if your mom is totally refusing to your dad into a home on top of taking her marriage vows seriously. "In sickness and in health" apparently means something to her. However, you may actually have no other choice but to go over her head and get her help your dad so desperately needs. What you may want to get is a case manager who can help you through all of this. A case manager is just that, a case manager who handles cases. Definitely look into this because having a case manager can actually be very beneficial to those who need it.

Get DPOA NOW! They cannot make valid decisions!

Key

Willows. ..any fire chief will tell you thats against the law and a fire hazard to need a ney to get out. Putting a chain up high on the doors is okay. Be safe please!

It is the hardest decision that any one can make for another person. Both your mom and dad would benefit from putting dad in a home. I put my mother in a nursing home and to this day I still deal with the guilt that I did it. However it was a good decision for her health and well being. My mom passes in July she was only in the home for a year and a half but it felt like forever. Best of luck to you !!

I think we need to keep in mind that every situation, every family is different. While those of you that advocate to keep the senior at home, it is not always physically, financially or emotionally possible. But for some, it is. This poster needs to evaluate their own situation. Is there family support? Is there place in the home for a 24/7 caregiver? Are there funds to support it? If so, you could give it a try. If not, look into the other alternatives we have suggested to get the ball rolling before someone gets hurt.

xo
-SS

I need to remind caregivers that your loved one with dementia need not go outside. You are the only one who can prevent this. It's very simple. You simply call a locksmith and have him install a dead bolt on every door in your home that leads to the outdoors. That's what I did a year and a half ago. The only way my hubby can sneak outdoors is if he has a key, and he does not have a key.

You may want to approach it as a "temporary" measure -- perhaps so that she can go visit a friend or family (who will be prompted by you to invite her!) You can even call it Respite so it sounds different. When she comes home maybe it would be a good time to give the house a thorough cleaning before he comes back....etc. Meanwhile all the assessing etc can be done and professional recommendations made. She'll probably see through it, but you never know. Maybe all she needs is a good "excuse" to get the ball rolling. Another approach might be push her harder to take action but help keep her in control by going with her to several facilities so she can be in charge of picking the one she wants - let her interview them more than the other way around......what is her driving situation by the way? Would she be able to visit every day?

what's INR?
wolflover: thank you so much, something never really thought of, at least directly, was concerned there could be issues; she really probably should have had stitches but she never even went to the ER; it's probably been at least that long and nothing's happened yet; she's like reverseroles, it's really that she's terrified if she went anywhere they would take him away and she would die; I really don't think any longer it's about what's best for him; she says she wants help but instead she gives the money to their grandson, who's not helping - so what do you do? my dad also had a fall like that and did get stitches, did scans and stuff and nothing said about anything like that happening but there were other things that did; we did get him some inhome help then and then later after that is when he got grandson (an older one) to move in with him to take care of him - at least better than the other situation

You have posed several questions. First, on the surface you are concerned about your Mom's health and the pressure put on her by caring for your Dad. Your concerns are valid. It is proven that care giving is very taxing. Without proper care of the caregiver; that person will suffer health crisis, unless they take proper care.

You have also presented 'why won't Mom consider or accept help caring for Dad.' Mom does not take the idea of moving Dad as a good alternative to him being at home and her doing the caregiving.

Let's take these two questions, as the other questions will be answered as these are. And let's start with the second question. You indicated that your Dad was 89 years old. This generation when married said those vows of marriage very seriously. It is in many cases for the couple to separate for health care due to the part of those vows saying 'in sickness and health'. My answer for this question is to pursue alternatives to your Mom facilitating his care. Look into their moving to an assisted living/nursing home together (many times there is an assisted living on the same land as a nursing home). Many of these facilities do exist for just the reason you are looking at for your Mom. Many times you can help this by having your Mom and Dad sleep in separate rooms, then during the day reside in a common place. You can also look into in home help, however, many of this generation will not accept this as an alternative. See below

The first question was in regard to your Mom's health. You should be concerned as several research elements have proven that a when the caregiver is a sole caregiver, their health is dramatically affected in a negative manner. As I had said the above answer to living apart could be the answer for this concern. If that is not an answer in your circumstance, begin looking for in-home help. Do not let money be the deciding factor for this solution. There are multiple ways to put this to use with little or no impact on the financial status of your parents. I do not know your particular financial situation, however I have facilitated many couples living only on Social Security (which is bear bones financial status).

You will want to do some research into this way of answering these questions. These solutions will allow for your Mom and Dad to maintain their marital union and yet get help for your Mom.

Or, you may want to look into low cost answers for this situation by looking into home health. (Let's be clear, this will not accomplish your Mom's good nights sleep.) However, if she has help during the day this will begin to answer the question.

You can look into family members helping out with solutions to some of the care needs. Perhaps a friend of the family, someone from the church (if there is a community in their lives) or seek help from your local Office of Aging. This last mentioned is funded by Old Soldier's Act and can be found in the County section of your phonebook. They're almost always governed by DSHS.

Most of all take care of yourself as you may be caring for your Dad, as well as your Mom.

to debdaughter: any older person falling and hitting head could be fatal later. they could develop a brain bleed which could lead to death. my mother fell 2 years ago and hit her head and required 3 stitches. the er doctor said that elders, just like infants, their brains are smaller because in elders they shrink over time, which can cause the brain to bounce back and forth inside against the skull causing damage/brain bleed. my friends father had this happen and did nothing until about 1 week later.......end result he died within 1 month of fall.

Kimber I agree with you, my furst gut reaction reading this question post was TEARS! True love at work here, just true love. My opinion is your mom would die if you took her husband away. She also may very well die if she takes care of him. You need to step in and help asap! He, and she needs at home care! This way she can be with her love and not do the work. She cant be running to a nursing home everyday, nir can she stay home without his presence. Ive been married 40 years, dated him 6 years before that and in no way could i put my husband in a home either. Look at me, i cant even put my mom in a home, shes been living with us 8 years. I have 4 hours of help i pay for each morning out of moms ss, va, pension, to save my life. Weekends kill me, i need more money for help. Go to care.com if you cannot help them, and get them help, please.

tjivey5, another thing you can tell your Mom is that 40% of caregivers pass away leaving behind their loved one. What if that happened to her? Who would take care of Dad? Caregivers get to a point where they are so burnt out, can't sleep, they either have a serious fall or major health issues that end their life.

My mother finally went to the NH, from the hospital. There was no one available to take care of her. But, it would be almost impossible to admit someone to the NH, that doesn't want to be there. And if the wife doesn't want him to be there. They are not prisoners, the wife could go get him.

If you have tried everything, I would have a plan in place, if an emergency arises, but there is not a whole lot you can do.

This is a hard one..Explain to your mother that if she falls and breaks a hip or worse then she will no longer be able to give your father the care that he needs. Also explain to her how much you hate seeing her go thru this and that she needs to love your dad n herself enough to put him where he can get round the clock care, something she is not able to do. I do wish you the best. Good luck.

The guilt issue is huge when it comes to wanting to keep a loved on at home. Especially a spouse who loves them deeply. I finally had to convince myself that putting my mom in the nursing home was the better thing FOR HER. It's about her, and not me... she needed the care a nursing home would provide which I could not do at home. When you frame it that way, it helps. Any resistance to this could be interpreted as selfishness on the part of the spouse who will not cooperate... even though it doesn't appear to be that way. I've had to tell myself... Jocelyne, this is not about you. This is about your mom and what she needs, etc. I think the ER route is the way to go... and a little white lie can solve a great amount of unnecessary bickering.

I'm so sorry this is happening. My advice would be to call 911 today. If he's not getting his INR checked, and if the levels are off, or he's not taking his coumadin at all, that alone could kill him by either a clot or a bleed, or he could have another stroke. For that reason alone, this is an emergency. Once he's in the hospital, tell the social worker the truth so that at the very least, she can arrange for a nurse to come and do his INR, or she can arrange for a little home care help for your mom. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, you just need to relieve some of the pressure...right now.

same thing with hub's aunt and uncle and she even just fell and gashed her head but still won't get help, although she was supposed to go with him to the doctor this past Friday to try to insist she do something but after the fall - and possibly concussion - not sure if she did, not sure she's even capable of letting me know anything anymore; she normally would have called by now, but she hasn't - issues with grandson being there now, too, not sure what's going on except wondering about possibly exploitation starting up again but not quite sure have enough info re that yet - when that's going on, don't hear from him or her; get it 2nd hand and they don't want anything done for somewhat fear of reprisal, so not sure what to do now

You need to find a very nice place first then take your mother there and convince her your father's care will be far superior! My mother received much better care in assist living than we could give her in her home. They are trained specialists, they have nurses around everyday and the doctors visits them at the facility. They have physical fitness and entertainment. I went through this with my siblings. My mother improved once she had the proper care!