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After 6 months of a tumultuous living situation with my father, he was moved into his new house on May 1st. He did a complete 180° by suddenly putting his place together & has no signs of dementia or inability to walk. (It's a miracle!🤣) I feel it's because he is a hoarder and is now with his "things" he is suddenly normal again. But now I am getting daily phone calls with "demands".



My dad has guns, which his doctor told us to keep from him, as he admitted he was suicidal. Dad rents storage, and we keep his lawn mower, shovels, rakes & snow blower in our shed, as his rental has no storage space for lawn equipment. The rental storage place doesn't want gas powered tools in the units.



He called yesterday & got very rude. Demanding his guns & yelling at me that these are "his property" & he is "75 years old".... Then said he will also come to get his "tools" (lawn equipment) from our shed. We have told him repeatedly that we fear those things would get stolen off his back porch. I told him we want permission from his doctor before giving him access to his guns.



Dad also interjected that he "hasn't seen a dime" of his money in months. Mind you, he gave me his banking cards to "fix his mess" & I caught him up on being 3 months behind on bills, got him a rental since his credit is ruined, moved him to this town from 3 hrs away, multiple trips with a uhaul to get his belongings, bought washer/dryer, new mattress, dvd player, phone, microwave, since his belongings were covered in filth. Plus he lived with us for free, I only had him buy some groceries 2 of the 6 months he was with us. Drove him to doctors appointments etc...



I don't feel comfortable with what he is now alluding to. So I told him today, once we get his car here, I am going to relieve myself of all bill paying & errand running, as he can do this himself.



We took his guns to the storage & will also take his lawn equipment. He doesn't have a key yet, due to doctor's order & that he has a gun safe in there that we cannot even open. I will wait to see what his doctor says. I am so tired of being treated like garbage. After all we've done for him after finding out my brother abused him. Then he says, "I miss my son." I am tired.



I told him he is going to have to get help from the agencies here. My dad has been demanding things, not even asking nicely.



Am I being too harsh? I just feel so used.

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((((((Victoria))))) I have been to therapy off and on all my adult life. I am glad you have that support now.
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Victoria , I was recently wondering how you are . And now see that you just responded to another’s post below . So sorry that it’s been difficult . Share and vent when you are ready . (((((Hugs)))))))
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Only if you wish to, but would it help to unload about how Dad's mental health was (going back)?

My experience was that nobody really talked about these things, it was all kept in the family, people just accepted someone had their 'quirks'. I still felt that stigma, that protection that I couldn't disclose anything, after being an adult for decades. Even after, I dunno.. 6 councelling sessions. Silly I suppose. I have mentioned it on the forum (our safe space) & only recently mentioned in passing to my Doctor that my Mother had always been.. pause.. "unusual". The look on his face was *interesting*. He gently probed like he wanted to get a feel of the damage under the surface... We parked that convo there as not any immediate threat to anyone's health (but probably wrote "family nuts" on my file or something LOL.
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BarbBrooklyn May 2023
Beatty (((hugs))).

I recently unloaded to my doctor about my daughter's crazy actions. Don't know what he scrawled in my chart, but we had a good conversation about parenting adult children with challenges, boundaries and the like.
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Lie... tell dad if he has his tools they will get stolen. You are keeping his money safe because people are trying to steal it. This is what I told my daddy. He wanted his money, his car and his guns. I gave his guns to his grandson, I was on his accounts at the bank and his car was in the drive - and disabled. I just told him what he needed to hear so that he knew everything was safe. Some people will tell you not to lie - but what is going to be easier? not lying and have them upset or lying and there be peace. My daddy was at peace because his car was "hidden in the garage", his money was in "his safe under his bed", and his guns were "locked" up.
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(((((Victoria))))) I understand. My mother had Borderline Personality Disorder, my father was an alcoholic, though he was nurturing. My sister has something similar to mother but colder. I was the scapegoat, the family servant. And I also was the only one who ever sought therapy. I accepted being POA to mother because I would not have wanted my worst enemy to have my sister care for them. But. I would never let my mother live with me and I limited contact with her. I did caregiving from a distance. Fortunately she was good at managing her money so I didn't have that to deal with. Nonetheless, it was very stressful. So glad you are out of it now.
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BurntCaregiver May 2023
@golden

I too was the family scapegoat and servant myself for a long time.

I sought out help and went to therapy and highly recommend going to anyone who grew up in a family like mine.
No shame in my game.

I truly believe that people who grew up in abusive homes like we did should not be caregivers to their abusers when they become needy.
Many of us make this mistake because there had been years of abusive conditioning.
It's always a mistake though and the abused child/caregiver is always the one who suffers the most.
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Read up on Lewy Body dementia. My mom was first diagnosed with mental illness …but later the doctor diagnosed LB. Huge behavior swings occur. Can be hard to diagnose early on. NO GUNS!
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
My father has had mental health issues since the 1970s
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Victoria,

I don’t know what your back story is on your relationship with your dad and brother. Every family has their own unique story.

Sometimes, we feel obligated to them just because they are are parents or siblings.

I know that I couldn’t see things clearly for a very long time. I kept thinking that I could somehow change my situation to create harmony within my family. I was wrong. None of us have that kind of power.

I am so happy to see that you are able to emotionally distance yourself from your dad, so that you are able to protect yourself from his abuse. It sounds like you have a great support system with your husband.

It’s a shame that your dad didn’t appreciate all of your efforts. Whether this is due to his being incapable of it, due to mental illness or if he is just plain evil, I couldn’t say because I am not his therapist. Regardless, it’s still hurtful to you. I’m so sorry.

Just know that you are doing the right thing by stepping away to protect yourself.

A long time ago, I said to a friend of mine that I wish I could help my brother see what his behavior was doing to our family. She said to me. “I know that you do. It doesn’t have to be you. Step back and let someone else do it. You’re his sister and he will lash out at you. He is more likely to receive help or respond better to someone else.”

My friend gave me good advice. Sadly, my brother lived his life on a roller coaster of tumultuous ups and downs and didn’t want to listen to anyone else because he thought that he was smarter than everyone else. Some people are like that. It’s sad because they never grow as individuals.

You are growing. We aren’t always stronger because we hold on. It takes a lot of strength to let go. I’m proud of you for surrendering and allowing yourself to live in peace. Good for you!
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
I was "no contact" with my dad for over 5 years. My father has an extensive history of mental illness treatment, but not enough to take away his rights.. I only got involved because my much younger brother (I was 18 when he was born) was physically abusing him. My father went into the hospital & we picked up his dog. When he came to my home (3 hrs from his old house) he faked being lethargic, twice. Then I found out he hadn't paid bills for months. I pondered an addition, as he showed signs of needing help,, but really never agreed with him to actually do it, just told him I would research the legalities, as this was brought up amongst many other possibilities. Early on, I realized I needed him out of my home, as he slyly manipulated both my husband and I. I do not ever want him stepping a foot into my home again. He turned my safe haven into an awful situation.
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Victoria, it seems as though your dad may be suffering from mental illness. Try not to think of this as "dad is getting what he deserves for call me a b**** (which may lead to remorse and rollback down the road).

Rather, the ONLY way you can get this kind of stubborn, unself-aware person the help they need is by allowing them their independence and letting them fail of they aren't up to the task. Propping them up denies them assistance.
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
My dad has been mentally ill since before I was born. I come from 2 really screwed up people, who also came from screwed up families. I am the family scapegoat. I was the only person, on both sides of my family, to ever go to therapy. I ended up being a family counselor, largely due to my upbringing. So, I am the "black sheep" and mocked for being supposedly "always perfect". 🙄 The only reason I got involved was there was physical abuse happening to my father. No one deserves that.
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I just read your response to Sendhelp when she suggested an allowance. Just curious...are you still handling his money? I so hope you are not using your own to support him. And surprised if you are handling his money, that you are. By handling his money it makes it hard to break away all together. But I understand why u would be doing it. Please, just stay in the background. If no Dementia is involved, he is a big boy and can care for himself, good or bad.
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
I gave him back his cards and everything yesterday after he called me a b*tch
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Good for you walking away. Don't do anything for him. He treats you like garbage so stop putting out his fires and cleaning up his financial messes.

There is such a thing as the 'right to rot'. People can live in filthy hoards and basically rot if they want to.

As for the guns. Don't give them back. Bring them to the police department with a letter from his doctor saying he has mental illness and is suicidal and can't have guns.
Do not put other people's lives in danger by giving him back the guns.
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Way2tired May 2023
That’s right burnt ,

We don’t have to “ honor parents” that treat us poorly or put us in danger . We are not servants . We don’t do or give them what they demand . Dementia or no dementia , his actions have consequences that will eventually determine his fate . We can try to get our LO help from a distance . But sometimes we can’t control what happens.
Stay safe Victoria (((Hugs)))
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Such a very difficult time, Victoria ((((((hugs))))). Glad you are stepping away from the abuse. Eventually your father will prove to others, if not himself, that he is not independent and needs help. You have more than done the extra mile.
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Voctoria; (((hugs))) and hang tight.

So many posters here end up with mentally unstable/demented elders living in their homes, destroying families and marriages.

The ONLY way to prove that your father isn't capable of caring for himself is to let him have a trial of true independence.

You might consider letting his doctor know that you're cutting the cord and that dad is on his own. Giving the suicidal ideation, the doctor is almost certain to report dad to APS to get him on their radar as a vulnerable adult.

At some point, dad will end up in the hospital and will get placed. Do not take him into your home again.
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Way2tired May 2023
Yep,
Step way back. Let him fail . As the social worker told me to do about my mother .
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Are you ok Victoria ? How’s it going ?
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
Dad signed his lease today. Minutes after my dear friend left, my father called me a b*tch. I ended up giving him all of his mail, previous bills, medical cards,, etc. back. My husband was present & no longer wants my father around me. "No good deed goes unpunished" is my lesson for this past year.
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Cheers for you! And you're right to keep guns away from him.

The last thing you want is for him to hurt someone else. You could even have some liability for his actions with guns, since you know that he shouldn't have them. Be really careful about this.

I have, in the past, hidden a relative's guns in my attic for a long time after his doctor ordered them to be kept from him. There was no way the relative could get into the attic, so they were safe there until we could make other arrangements. You could secure the guns away from your dad in a similar way.

Good luck, and again, cheers for the way you've handled this sad situation.
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Dad needs a cash allowance.
Enough to hand someone a $20 or more for helping him get his house arranged without telling you he may have had help.

Replenish on a regular basis.

And ask Dad, do you need some cash?

You are not being too harsh Victoria.
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
I plan on $100 a week starting next month. The costs of everything has made the budget tight this month.
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Victoria, you are in a tough position. Basically, you have (rightly, in my view) given your dad a chance to sink or swim.

1. No guns "the doctor said no guns, dad. Call the doctor. Here's the number".

2. Is dad paying for the storage unit? If yes, give him the key. Let him figure out how to get the stuff.

3. Call Adult Protective Services and get him on their radar as a vulnerable adult.

4. Get him an appointment with a geriatric psychiatrist.

5. If dad calls in a lather, ranting, hang up and call 911. Tell them you fear your dad is having a stroke. Do this EVERY time he acts out, threatens suicide, violence, that you've stolen stuff.
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Slow things down.
Put delays on things that Dad does not need to live with. You are busy, you have a life, tell him you will need to do this later.

Get an assessment (a social worker) to determine if Dad can live alone.
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
A social worker is supposed to be calling me this week.
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I didn't read all the posts so this may have been suggested. Call the police. Ask them what you should do. Maybe they will confiscate them if doctor says he should not have them. ThenBhaiits out of ur hands.

Otherwise, give him what he wants, a list of resources in your area and stop answering his calls. Tell him you have had enough. You are no longer jumping at his demands. You are his adult daughter, not his slave. You will answer one call a day and he better be nice or you are hanging up. Give back what he gives. Respect goes both ways. He hasn't earned urs.

Your father is only 75 and very capable of caring for himself. My husband is 76 and needs no help from me.
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
I did just what you suggested yesterday. My father called me a b*tch, right in front of my husband. A huge mistake for him. My husband says my father is an absolute lunatic.
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Victoria
What you are doing is very hard. Your dad has been abused, is elderly and demented, he is in need of oversight, just not by you.
Call APS to check on him and make sure the local police know his story. He will probably be blaming you for everything that goes wrong, so knowing the resources available could make a difference in the days ahead when it falls apart.
Read the book Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend.
Wishing you lots of luck.
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Way2tired May 2023
Agree. This is too much for Victoria to handle . Need professionals that Dad can not lash out at , harm , or manipulate .
It is sad that he was abused too .
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All you have to do is watch the news , regarding guns…
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Way2tired May 2023
I know . So scary . I’m afraid for you Victoria.
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DO NOT return the guns to your father. Get rid of the guns.
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Your father’s behavior will NEVER be normal, and IT WILL ONLY GET WORSE. I believe that your father is a narcissist. He is going to blame you for everything wrong that HE is doing. Instead of placing him in a rental house, you should have placed him in an assisted-living apartment where he would have received the help and care that he needs and it would have freed you of having to personally care for him. If your father has Medicare Advantage, they will pay for home care aides to come in and help him with shopping, laundry, running errands, taking him to doctors’ visits, etc.

Give him his lawnmower and his tools, but make sure you document this by video or having a third party present when you deliver his equipment. If you don’t document this, he will blame you later down the road for stealing his stuff when his equipment gets stolen. Your father is at the point where he wants a scapegoat to shift HIS screwups on, and you are his scapegoat.

DO NOT allow him to emotionally and psychologically abuse you and blame you for HIS mistakes. Give him two choices of him paying his bills on his own or you can help to set up electronic bill payments for him. If he chooses to pay his bills on his own and he misses payments then so be it. He will be evicted from his house and it will be a learning lesson for him. You need to do this ASAP before you end up having a mental breakdown and before the situation gets out of hand and he reports you to the police for theft.

You need to put your father in an assisted-living apartment when his lease on the house expires in one year and visit him once in a while. Try your best to avoid the toxicity that he emits.

Praying that you find a solution to this problem soon.
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
He was clinically diagnosed as a narcissist. The only reason I got involved was my father was being physically abused by my whack job younger brother.
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So sorry you’re being treated poorly after doing so much to help your dad. Since he doesn’t have the ability for whatever reason to thank you for your help, I’ll say thank you for being a great daughter. He’s blessed to have you even if he can never see it. You can certainly decide how much or how little you want to continue to be involved. Please get rid of all the guns and the gun safe (a locksmith can help you access whatever is inside) You can sell it all and hang onto the money for dad’s future needs. Provide no explanation at all about guns. When dad asks, don’t reply. It’s like when my children were little and I’d get rid of something of theirs. I’d just look at them blank when they asked about it and go do something else. In the case of guns you could be preventing a tragedy to someone by making them permanently unavailable to an unreasonable man. I wish you peace in a hard time
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He needs a geriatric Psychiatrist and an evaluation - sounds destructive and a mess . Get Rid of the guns . Please get a therapist or social worker involved that can help you before you go crazy or die of a heart attack . The Hoarding , Demands , being Unreasonable sounds Like dementia . Go with him to his primary care Doctor and tell them your concerns . They can find you a social worker That can help you or a VNA Nurse to come In and evaluate him . You Need to get others involved because this situation has already spun Out of control .
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Next time he threatens suicide or threatens you call the police get him taken to the hospital for psych eval , and possibly dementia . Explain the hoarding , wanting his guns , he can’t manage his finances etc. Let the hospital determine if it’s a psych issue , dementia or both and maybe they will find enough reasons to place him somewhere . But do not ever take him to live with you. I wouldn’t want him living next door either .
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
He is NEVER COMING back to my home ~ it was the worst experience I've ever dealt with
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Sounds like a nightmare. What is his diagnosis? Does the doctor have any suggestions on how to deal with his anger, irritation and abuse? Maybe he needs some meds to balance out his erratic behavior.

I would never let him move back in with you ever! Get a notebook and itemize where his $$ went in the event he is calm enough to talk to.

Leave him alone and let him miss you. Do not take his calls. He can leave a msg in case of an emergency. Most likely @ 75 & unwell he is not going to change. Getting guns back is an absolute no due to his unstable behavior.

You can pay his bills electronically and set up auto pay. Set up an email for him for you to access and have all bills changed to paperless otherwise he will end up in the same mess with his $$.

Maybe groceries can be delivered?

Why is he 3 hours away? Just curious but you deserve some peace even if its small bits at a time. Care from a distance.
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NightHeron May 2023
Re: the 3 hours—the way I read it, he *was* 3 hours away and she moved him to an apartment in her town. Possibly after a 6 month interim stay in her house. Good comment, though.
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Is his new arrangement going to be safe?

Not if he has suicidal ideation, either now or in the past.

Not if he resumes or continues driving, if (as your comments seem to indicate) he experiences swings in mood, activity level, and cognitive management.

Not if he has access of any kind to firearms.

Not if he is currently unable to accept rational, factual comments and suggestions from people who love him, and act on them in his own best interests.

These are painful and uncomfortable truths that many of us experience(d) early in “the journey”.

For yourself and for him, please don’t allow yourself to accept his “normal” without questioning it as objectively as you possibly can.

I hate the fact that you “feel used”, mostly because I remember that feeling all too well.

If you believe that this trial of independence is in his best interests, stay watchful in spite of your “walk away”, and be prepared with alternatives when, not if, he falters again.

Hard stuff for all of us, and not ever easy. We’re here for you.
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Are you really going to walk away though?

If you give dad free reign to screw things up again, which you know he will. Are you really prepared to be done and not bail him out again?

If you are then yes turn everything back over to him with the exception of his guns.

If you know you will be his safety net again then dig in and don't give him free reign in his money etc.

If he lives in a rental that does all the yard care there is no reason for him to have those tools and equipment at his place.

He will be evicted if he starts hoarding this place. What will you do then? Will you let him move back in with you or be strong and tell him he needs to go to a facility?

Your dad will never change so it is up to you to change. He doesn't get to make the rules anymore. He lost that privilege when he destroyed his home and you had to bail him out.

When he calls demanding this or that and his guns you can and should hang up the phone.

I hope you really are done and will stop being manipulated by him. Good luck.
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
He cannot ever move back in. He will be placed.
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No, you are not being too harsh. Time to draw a line in the sand! You have done so much for him.

Is there a chance he is developing dementia? It's not mentioned in your profile but much of this behaviour is similar to the early stages of dementia. It often first shows with an inability to manage money properly, Is him being demanding new behaviour or has he always been like that?

By all means keep his guns away from him. ((((((hugs)))) to you,
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
He has had money issues his entire life.
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Victoria,
Suggest you take at least 3 days without any contact, even phone.

Try that.

For you, and for your Dad to regain his composure.
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VictoriaMcD May 2023
I have to meet up with my friend Tuesday to give him a check to sign the lease.
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