Behavior I expect/need from elderly father. Am I being unfair?

He doesn't realize that you would willingly visit. At some level he knows he is being difficult just to get you to visit. And I also think there is a part of him that needs to be in control. He wants to feel important. He is just going about it the wrong way. My grandmother was the same way (the world needed to revolve around her). I am lucky my father is only a small fraction of how she was.

I have had visits with my father that went well and I think "If there were more like this I would visit more often". Then he goes back into crisis mode and I resist visiting.

Paul, I know I keep sounding incredibly harsh but actually I just want to refer you back to your original question - is it unfair of you to expect certain behaviours from your father.

Well, yeah, it's unfair. And with this latest event, I'd actually go so far as to say you set him up to fail.

Your father understands what about Asperger's Syndrome? He comes from a generation that by and large doesn't even "believe in" psychiatry.

And you hoped that he would suddenly, generously agree that your son needs you and he, your father, can best help the family by accessing services that he's consistently rejected to date?

C'mon. You are asking for things that are emotionally and intellectually way beyond him. Don't be daft.

Quite frankly I am surprised he gave you this weekend off. Everyone is right, this is all about you paying attention to him, not about him needing you there for something. To look at it that way might make it easier for you. Not so much for me. I don't really enjoy my father's company so for me to see him I NEED to be addressing a NEED for him.

My father could never understand that there were other issues besides his wants. A few years back I was out of work for 9 months. I am sure my father thought this was great as I would have more time for him. He could not see that I had no money coming in therefore could not afford to put gas in my car to drive him around. One time I drove down there because he got a last minute appointment to do the pre screening for a colonoscopy. While there I took him to the bank and shopping and lunch. The main point of the trip was the appointment though. Two days later he cancels the colonoscopy. I was fuming as he basically wasted my time and money. And I told him so. It went right over his head and he asked if I was coming down tomorrow. I totally flipped and finally told him I could not afford the gas to make the drive again. He got all offended and said if he HAD to he would give me gas money. I never asked him for that, I was just telling him one of the reasons why it was hard for me to be there. Of course he never actually gave me gas money. But he would give my kids gas money if they came down to assist him.

Before anyone starts yelling dementia, this was years before he had any cognitive issues. He is just self centered.

@lkdrymom Well to be honest I had hoped there might be some non-selfish consideration for someone else in there. Looks like not.

Got some really serious issues with my teen son lately. (Hes got Aspergers). Some really serious stuff.

Haven't told Dad the whole story but thought it might be worth telling him - he might realise there are more important things I've got to deal with.

So he says "OK then. Don't worry about coming up this weekend then if you've got stuff to sort out". "But you'll HAVE to come next weekend though".

In other words, sort the problem out and don't let it get in the way of what want.....Jeez

Paul when you say things like: I wish he'd think sometimes "paul has got to drive 30 mins to get here - it'd be easier for everyone if I did this"

this is exactly where you keep missing the point.

The job, whatever the job, is Not Real. The wish is for your time and attention. Obviously your presence is of the essence. Therefore there cannot be any time when doing something for himself is going to solve the problem. Therefore, stop wishing for it. It will save you pain.

You decide for yourself what time and attention you give your father. You trust yourself to do that fairly, and sufficient to supply his needs. Not his whims, note, his needs - but his emotional and social needs to a fair extent, not just practical ones.

Emotional blackmail is only a problem if you succumb to it. As long as you don't, it's just an unattractive personality trait - one of the warts you have take with the all.

But it isn’t about what is easier for it is about what is easier for him. My father would do the same thing. He wants to feel important to someone. That shouldn’t be your problem to solve. I feel the same way. I am willing to help with things he can’t do but not those he does feel like doing. It is the lack of consideration that your time is so upsetting. I would run to the store for him and when I get back he would say he wanted something else and expect me to run back out. I learned to say no

Paul, the shopping is an excuse. Your father wants attention from his sons. Not unreasonable in itself, but it would be helpful to recognise what he actually wants as distinct from what he says he wants.

In fact, it would be helpful to do that throughout.

You don't need excuses not to take orders from your brother. If you were doing nothing but paint your toenails and watch the rugby you would still not owe your brother back-up, and your father would still be fine. Nobody NEEDS to go to the betting shop or stock up on groceries two days running.

The trouble is that when you start thinking: I have to do a - z and you have to do nothing and it isn't fair... then you end up feeling put upon, unappreciated and hard done by AND, what's more and worse, you ruminate on your father's and your brother's failings. And there's just no need!

A simple no, or even a simple sod off, would do the trick. You don't have to show your reasoning.

Does he know you go down on Sundays?

Heres what I have to put up with from dear brother.....

It seems he goes to see Dad on a Saturday am to do shopping for him and go to the betting shop. Then Dad gets me to do more shopping for him on a Sunday. Not sure why the need for two lots of shopping (or why it has to be done weekly or why he can't have it delivered). Well OK I do its so he can blackmail me to visit him.

So get text from brother - "Can't do Dads shopping Saturday or go to betting shop for him. Can you do it instead?" Jeez - he takes the biscuit. My wife is working Saturday, so I've got our 5 year old. I might have to pop into the office for a few hours (if I can get babysitter!). And daughter has got gymnastics at 11am, party at 1pm (which I need to be back from office for). Yet I've got to do drive 20 miles to do his shopping on Saturday now it seems (I was planning to visit Sunday anyway).

My brothers commitments at the weekend. No kids, no work at weekends, partner doesn't work. Lives a mile away from Dad.

Not going to happen!!!!

Hi Paul. I’m glad that venting about the difficulties is helpful, but it doesn’t really get you anywhere. Perhaps the time has come for you to sit right back and make a plan that covers everything, write it down, and then stick to it for at least three months. No exceptions.

When I was jut through Uni, I worked as a Court Staff Associate to a judge with unusually blunt common sense and speech, who gave me life-time advice: ‘Never stick your a*se out to be kicked’. Think about it! Yours again, Margaret

I completely see what you are going through. I had to establish firm boundaries with my father. I took him shopping after work once every other week. Maybe call him once a week. It just got to be too much dealing with the daily drama. He had friends that he would see but he expected to have something going on every day to keep him entertained. And if we did have something planned and someone else called he would cancel on me and just expect I could easily reschedule. After a few times I learned to not reschedule. He would call me saying he needed to speak to me urgently although for some reason it could never be over the phone. I would run up after work to have him say 'never mind'. A few days later he would repeat this. This is when he got the once every other week boundary put in place. When he asked when I would come over , like you I could not plan that far out with a date because to him it was set in stone....unless he had a better offer. I basically had to tell him the day before that I was coming over so I knew it would not interfere with my responsibilities.

Just my two cents to let you know I know what you are going through.

Paul, just of curiosity - when did you last actually go and see your father? Have you been down there since Christmas?

Paul; When my mom reached the age your dad is now (late 80s), she stopped driving, managing her finances and stopped sorting her pills. She asked my SIL to take over her checkbook and for me to stop up once a week (an hour drive each way) to set up her pill box. SIL, brother and I split and doc appointments.

There was no hinting; mom just presented this as what she needed from here on in. We found out later that she was presenting with "Mild Cognitive Impairment" likely the result of a stroke that was not dxed at the time.

The thing is, my mom was very considerate about our time; she asked what worked for us in terms of making appointments and arranged them our schedules.

Later on, mom became terribly anxious about all sorts of things (weather, travelling in cabs, burned out light bulbs); we moved her to a facility where she could be around people and not be so isolated and got a geriatric psychiatrist in to see her. Her anxieties got properly medicated and her MCI got diagnosed.

Something has changed with your dad; it sounds as though he's ALWAYS been a taker, but this has gone off the charts. Something is up with him cognitively and you need to have it looked into.

My two cents....

Also. He IS a nice old man who just needs a bit of help!

That he doesn't seem so to you is a sure sign that the harness is rubbing and you need to adjust it. Wouldn't it be nice to like him again?

I don't know how I'm going to get to x next week.
Oh dear, don't you? Well, what are your options?

My boss understands that I have performance targets to meet. The targets do not include how much time I spend with my Dad. Maybe they should - roll on a better society.

Paul, it seems the worst that can happen is that your father, who is never satisfied, remains dissatisfied with your qualities as a son; and that those few remaining family members who haven't yet caught on still have something to learn.

Meanwhile he is, objectively speaking, getting older and frailer and his real needs are increasing. How are you doing with the residential care plan? Been to see any places?

Gordon Bennett! - he's not Peter Mandelson, for heaven's sake.

When he drops hints, don't ignore them. Identify and challenge them. You need to let him know which requests are reasonable and which are not. Because you have all the choices here, you also have all of the power in the dynamic. Nothing happens unless you agree to it.

And then when he says why what else are you doing, the answer is "not taking you to the optician."

I wasn't doing anything very interesting on Wednesday. Does that mean I should have popped down there to take him? No. The reason for declining to take him is not that you are not doing something more important, it is that he has better options that are more convenient for him as well as for you. You do not NEED an excuse to say no, there has to be a good reason for you to say yes.

And whatever you do, do not fall into the trap of apologising for him or accepting responsibility for his behaviours. It is not your fault that your uncle chose to bust a gut pushing him around the town.

Assuming your father does not have psychic powers or a horse whip, whose fault was that?

Paul, just set the family a good example when it comes to boundaries. I honestly don't see what more you can do.

Found out some more info. Had a chat last night with his cousin (I call him my uncle). He told me that he'd tried to tell Dad that he might not be able to push him, actually went half way and tried to tell Dad he was struggling but Dad insisted.

Yes he should have said NO so its partly his fault. BUT, I'm so ashamed of my Dad for the way hes treating people at the moment. All of this to save probably £10 in taxi fares.

Paul. Next time you go to visit your father, take his mobility scooter and go for a little tour of the town. Negotiate the kerbs and the parked cars and the crossings and the other pedestrians and the pushchairs, pop into a couple of shops, and see for yourself how easy it is. You can check out the disabled access into the optician's while you're at it, because if it's the one on the high street it's got a standard width door and a step up. It is also against the Highway Code to allow your scooter to block pedestrian access, so where are you going to leave it?

When he runs out of willing punters, your father will have a binary choice: take a cab or don't go to the optician. Whichever he chooses it won't be a problem for anyone else.

What is it, putting your finger on it, that is so hard for you about all this? Where's the hurt? [real question, I'm not having a go.]

Reflecting on this a bit.

You're annoyed about the mobility scooter, and your conclusion is that your father can't be bothered to use it and selfishly would rather lean on other people for help.

I wouldn't call that unfair so much as potentially really unkind. He used the scooter for a bit, then wanted someone to accompany him, then gave up. You think that means he couldn't be bothered? I think it sounds like he was having problems and lost confidence in it. I.e., he got scared. There are training courses, did he go on one? Would it be something to offer?

[I just looked them up and came across this on the .gov website -

"Rule 46 These vehicles MUST NOT be used on motorways (see Rule 253)."

No kidding.] 

Meanwhile, he had an appointment to keep and needed a way to get there. He dropped hints to you, which you refused to pick up. Wouldn't it have been better to say frankly "I'm not taking you. So, how will you solve this?" But since you didn't it isn't his fault, either, that his elderly cousin hasn't the sense he was born with or the backbone to say no.

It IS frustrating, and it does feel like he's constantly imposing, and there are better options for him. But the actual problems are real enough. It's no good getting him part of the way and then just leaving him to solve the rest on his own.

So this is how you reply to your Dad's cousin's text:

"Not a chance! 😘 Thanks for taking him, but let that be a lesson to you."

Never apologise, never explain.

Mobility scooters are a mixed blessing, because they have to be operated right and they have to be left somewhere they won't be vandalised, and I know from experience that getting a call to go and retrieve one when its battery has gone flat and it's been left in an inaccessible courtyard attached to a library is your whole Saturday written off.

Dad's options:

Ask for assistance from RVS or similar services.
Take a cab.
Find a visiting optician - there are growing numbers of these, I believe SpecSavers and the usual suspects are getting involved.

Paul's Taxi Services, however, have gone permanently out of business. Alas.

Honestly he takes the biscuit sometimes. It defies belief how selfish he is sometimes and I get dragged into it. All I need with the hassle with my own family at the moment (see my thread about son).

Bought him a mobility scooter a few months ago. He used it for a bit then decided it was too hard to use, then only used when someone was with him. It became obvious that he just could not be bothered which is him to a T.

He had an optician appointment yesterday. 1/2 mile from home in local town. He must have hinted 10 times for me to take him. I said no take the scooter. Made up every excuse under the sun "they wont let me in the shop", "they dont have the facilities". Won't listen of course they do.

So I get a text from his cousin yesterday (whos 3 years younger than him only!). Can I take next time because he can't manage next time? Dad had cajoled him into pushing him around, in a manual wheelchair, to the optician then to the doctors and home over a mile and up a steep hill.

Disgusted with my Dads selfish behaviour. I know exactly how hes thinking - why bother to think about taking my scooter when I can sit there and let someone else do it all for me. Totally and utterly selfish.

I wish his cousin had said no of course because I've dragged into it now. I've seen this probably 15-20 times over the years where Dad has taken advantage of people like this.

All I could think yesterday was "You selfish old man"

Kids are adults but one lives at home. I have been “dealing” with him since my mom died in 2003 so the kids were little back then. Didn’t get bad until 2012. Down hill ever since. He forgets that I work. Mad I don’t want to come up after work. I did that when he had his own place but since he moved to assisted living it is no longer close to my work. Mad I won’t leave work in a snow storm to come and “ talk” to him. You get the idea. I jumped a lot for him back in 2012 & 2013. My schedule no longer permits that.

In reference to my PS...I would care for my husband of 40 yrs at the age of 84 but I would not marry an 84 yr old man I had to care for. How old is this woman? Is she looking for some security? Does she think she will get something in the end, like the house?

Been reading some of your comments. One problem you have is no consistency. Brother and u have to be on the same page. Brother is making this monster, as my daughter, an RN, would say. So he is making it, so he will pay the consiquences. You just keep with your boundries. Make sure he is aware of the services in his community. Tell him he needs to use them because...you cannot be at his beck and call. You have an job that takes up a lot of that time. That when you aren't there you have responsibility to your family. Your children will not be small forever and you owe them ur time. Make brother aware that he is creating this monster and as such he will be dealing with the fallout.

Not sure what you have in the UK when it comes to care homes but u may want to tell Dad he may end up in one if he doesn't do for himself. That you are not in the position to care for him in your home.

Keep sticking by your guns.

PS, who in their right mind would want to marry an 84 yr old man who you have to care for. Not how I would want to live my life.

It is true, they do amplify as they get older. My father has always been a big man-child. He is not mean or nasty but he is needy.

He lives a 30 minute drive from me. Not real far but still not around the corner. I ended up going to his place on Saturday but I did it because I thought he had been readmitted to the hospital and son would not have been able to get in and get his bills as he does not have a key. I was certainly surprised to find him sitting in his apartment.

I have had plenty of nurses at the ER look at me like I am evil for not falling all over my father while he is there. I guess no one looks at his file and sees that this is the 15th trip so far this year. One time he called me to take him tot he ER for a non emergency because he waited until the weekend when his doctor was not open. I am sure he did that because he thought it would be easier to get me to take him. I told him I would drop him off there but he had to get a cab home. I get there and he insists I come in with him which was not in the plan. I end up sitting there for 2 hours with him waiting to be seen. That was not in the plan. I told him I had to leave and he got all pissy. Finally he was taken back and I told him I was going. Nurse looked at me like I was abandoning him in the woods. I just walked out. I had been through this so many times I lost count. Whatever they had to do for him would only take a few minutes but it would take another 2 hours to process his release. I had already been there 2 hours, I just couldn't give up any more time to just sit there. No one understood that I had done these sit in the ER for 6 hours over nothing stints many many times and I was just done.

I was thinking what someone on here said the other day about behaviour being amplified when you get older. Also, found out a few things about when we were all younger.

By the looks, Dad has always been a bit selfish. The stand out thing though seems to be hes always been very very small-minded and very very stubborn. Hes also seemed to very keen to take the easy safe option all the time especially if he doesnt have to make an effort.

When I was younger, he was left as single parent. Fair play to him for taking that on of course but some of the decisions he made seem a little strange.

- Got someone he knew at local council to get us council house (social housing) because he didn't want to get into debt and have a mortgage. Ended up for years living on a really bad council estate. (Could have ended up in a life of crime).

- Miles from other family but Dad refused to learn to drive. No need. (more like he didn't want to put the effort in).

- Refused (as he does now) to get a washing machine. Dragged suitcases of clothes miles to his mothers. Apparently, washing clothes is womens work.

Like I said as hes got older, this has all been amplified. His main problem is he won't help himself, or let anyone help him. He likes it as it is even if he has to struggle.

Have to admit I thought of you this morning. Last night my father went to the ER with a fever as he had a procedure yesterday. I don't even get involved with any of his ER trips anymore as they happen so often. This morning at 5am the phone rings. I don't even answer as I know it has to be about him. It rings again so I answer and it is my father. Now this is a man that can't seem to do anything for himself anymore but he knew how to call my home from a hospital bed. Apparently they were releasing him but the transport company was delayed in picking him up and he needed me to come and take him back to assisted living. I tried explaining to him that they would be taking him back but he was having none of that. After 20 minutes he finally got in that I was not running up there I got the ever famous "well keep in touch". (Just like Paul's dad) He insisted I needed to come up and get his bills to be paid. I told him my son would be stopping by to pick those up for me. Again not happy because it is not ME that is doing it. I will go up soon but it will be totally on my terms.

Paul, you're the successful one who has sought his fortune and has a thriving young family. Why do you expect your Dad and your brother - who, shall we say, have not quite kept up with the times on your terms - to understand your lifestyle, or working patterns in IT services?

It doesn't *matter* what they think. It only matters what you do. You are going to have grasp this important point.

Does future SIL have children?