At what point do I just sell dad's house?

Hi, You have my sympathy. I went through that with my mother in Assisted Living, unable to walk but unwilling to sell. Difference was I had no living siblings and it was my mother's prime residence. I hope you aren't paying for the upkeep. I don't know about the tax consequences, so talk to someone who knows. Selling it out of the estate when he passes might be better at this point. You will not get much for the "stuff". I had an estate sale when my mother died with very nice stuff in a three story house plus garage. It included all my father's first class tools, mother's antiques, high end crystal, china plus stuff from their summer house, my late brother's house, etc. In 6 sale days about half sold. Cleared $5000. Still had to clear out the other half and paid about 2000 to do that. It helped with repair costs on an unoccupied house. Spent 15,000 on a new roof because there was no way to sell it without doing that. Original tin roof was over 100 years old! Shortly before my mother died I had finally started clearing things out and dearly wish I had started sooner. There will be more actual junk than you can even imagine.... dried up paint cans, broken things. Start there. Pack up and label all sentimental items such as photos that you can never sell. This will take so much time. Get started. You will also be able to see what needs to be repaired before selling. Good luck.

My father sent me an email in Jan 2017, 'take a leap of faith' asking for myself, my son and our 4 animals to move into my elderly parents home. My father has passed and now I am caregiver for my Alzheimers, narcissist mother and the home. In the course of being here and moving here, 4 floods (mostly dementia) and Irma taking the roof, Ive lost just about everything material as well as my own wellbeing and sanity. When I first arrived I took photos of the atrocious hoarding, snake skin in the corner of the living room, cock roaches spilling out of the dish washer etc., I sent them to the Hoarders show. They were very interested in featuring us at the time. My sister talked me out of it, "Would you really want to put our family out there like that?" I should have because she shafted me several times getting me stuck here as my parents 24/7 caregiver while she stayed remote 'sending faxes and making phone calls for our parents' believing somehow that was equal contribution to the massive responsibilities of clearing the hoarding, recuperating from catastrophes and dealing with their care, that of the house and the hateful HOA constantly on our ass about the disarray of the home and yard. Email the hoarders show or hire people to help you clear that bitch, keep track of your time and bill your siblings - the funds can come out of whatever inheritance they get from sale of the house. It isnt as easy to pawn off stuff to thrift shops as your brothers and sisters might believe. Plus there are the emotions involved you will be dealing with while emptying the house. Bring your dad momentos from the home from time to time, if you make those moments joyful its YOU who will receive the small rewards of joy you might get with your father. It should be a law that the sibling that gets stuck doing all the work is compensated.

Getting rid of the house to your dad is not only getting rid of memories...but the elderly, many who have undiagnosed dementia, refuse to part with their stuff thinking in their minds, they are going to get better and "go back there". So... YOU SELL THE HOUSE. YOU are the one dealing with reality. Your father is not. I am sorry about you siblings. Yeah.. they have all these thoughts but they are NOT The ones dealing with your father and the reality of it all. You are. YOU go do what you have to and need to. SELL THAT HOUSE.. As someone stated before, get the stuff organized and then call an organization to come out and take it AWAY !! I did just that myself. What a load off your mind when THAT gets done. GOD bless you...

It’s obvious your dad is not thinking straight, and that’s reason enough to go ahead and sell. I would fly there and rent a car or truck and charge it to dad. I would not stay any longer than 3-4 weeks to get the job done and get out of there as quickly as possible. But I would hire local people to help out. Garage sales are never worth the effort I would contact a non-profit company that will come out and pick up all large items, furniture, tables, chairs etc. towards the end of your stay. Donate, donate, donate and if someone will come out and pick up all these items that’s even better!! Two out of the last five years to avoid capital gains seems to me that it needs to be sold by the end of this year, not sometime next year!! Good luck! Get going!!

I think you have the right idea in spending time now sorting, shedding, organizing. Using tubs to store memories/items relevant to siblings as suggested a good idea. His inevitable passing will only make the process of getting home ready for sale more stressful and primarily on you as trustee and likely will little help from sibs and also likely bickering. I think if you put down on paper pluses and minuses of tackling getting house to salable condition now versus waiting your discernment will become clear. I had to move my mum from Europe to States for her remaining months when she had a health crisis that landed her in hospital then rehab. Only child. Had to go through her belongings, residence contents, organize, sell, donate, on my own. By the time I was done I was an emotional wreck and exhausted. Don't wait.....

Hello. I had the same situation with my mom. She lives in a Memory Care facility and owns two homes. I am POA and now because of her diagnosed dementia and Alzheimer’s, I am her Successor Trustee. I now have the authority to sell her home or anything else as long as it is for her care.
Check with your attorney, or banker, or real estate agent to see if you have the correct documents in place. If all is good, then do what you think is best. Remember, you were made POA and trustee when he was thinking clearly.
After you sell, I would suggest you don’t tell him. It will just upset him and you don’t want that. I’ve become a creative storyteller!
Just know you are not alone! Take care, you can do this!

If no one has been in the house for two years and if the water wasn't shut off, you may find considerable water damage since the house is in Michigan. Best to go and check its condition and make decisions once you are there.

I would start sifting through what is in the house, since you have the time. Throw out what is junk, rusted scratched, dirty stained clothes etc. Leave alone anything of value. This is what I am doing at my parents. I an amazed what I am finding in cupboards that is not wearable or useable. Once this is done and everything is organized, once the time comes. Your end task will be easier for family to determine what they want and to sell the house once dads dementia is at a point he won’t every go back.

Go, start getting rid of the obvious garbage and junk. Make a few bins for family. You know the time is right. Take pictures of anything of value if you happen to sell things. If its that old it qill take you 2 years to pare things down to get it in condition to sell..

One poster said it very well: "a lifetime of memories that he is desperately holding onto." Dad does not really "want" the house, its maintenance, or its responsibility. The house represents the "memories."

My father had several strokes. When he was in the nursing home for a round of rehab, he believed that once he got back in his own house, that he would be "better." I knew otherwise. Once he got back into his house, he realized that the place was a booby trap for him - and he was having trouble functioning in it. (Meanwhile, I had hired his young grandnephew to help him with personal care at home.) His realization enabled me to have a heart-to-heart talk about how the house needed to be sold, because he would not be able to live in it safely ever again.

You really do need to start sorting things and having repairs done, so that when the house needs to go on the market, it can do so easily.

If your dad is not mentally competent to deal with the house, then you can invoke your POA and handle the house sale without his permission.

After doing some checking I want to tell you that you can not sell dads house if he is saying no and he is considered competent.

Doesn't matter if you have POA or are Trustee, he is still capable of making decisions if he is competent and you could be prosecuted for violating the fudiciary responsibilities of both positions.

I would leave it alone and when the time comes if your siblings don't step in and help, then hire a company to deal with it out of the estate funds.

I think that I would go sort out the items that I would want personally so that I could remove them without hassle later. But I only want family photos and items that were special to my grandma, so no one is going to grouch about the value.

When you speak with the certified elder law attorney in MI they will direct you to keep it all legal.

I would go ahead and start cleaning it out. I had to do this. My mom thought she would go back to her house in the country in a different state. She can’t drive. And she has dementia and she has stability issues. But after I cleaned it out I let her know I had stuff in storage for her near where she lives now. She hasn’t asked to see it tho. She did agree to sell the house finally. She waffled back and forth for a bit but it’s under contract now. It’s hard for them realizing that it’s to hard physically for them to go back so it’s a end to a chapter they’re not ready to close. I get that it. But you have to do what’s best.

If your Dad is 92, I'm guessing that you're not 40? Do you feel safe driving to Michigan and sifting through a whole lot of junk during this pandemic? My two brothers and I are in our 50s and it's taking us forever to throw away/donate/sell/keep stuff. Of course, we've had to stop donating until the places we were donating opened again, and we're still waiting for that. I would say, if you feel safe, start clearing out the house, but try to get your father's OK on selling it. Before you leave, make sure the charities, auction houses, used book stores, etc. near your father's house have reopened.

Your father’s clear position is he doesn’t want the house sold or his personal possessions touched. That’s his wish for you to implement. If you can’t do that hand over the responsibility to your siblings - you said they support his wishes. The costs of the responsibility of the home can accrue to his estate. The financial impacts are irrelevant as this is his decision, he is not mentally impaired and they won’t effect him anyway as he has limited years left to need financial independence. These wishes are obviously very important to him as he has chosen this option for the last 12 years even though not living there permanently. I’m sure thinking about his home, his belongings, his life, brings him great joy and will sustain him through the next few remaining years of his life. What greater gift can a child give to their father in their end?

Dont tell anyone and sell it making sure to keep a few things for each sibling

It sounds like you would do yourself a big favor if you sold it now.

You have excellent reasons to take this opportunity to get your father's house ready for sale and to sell it. Put those reasons to him. If he says no, that is his choice and you don't do it; and then, when the time comes, you put the house clearance and sale in the hands of a company who will do it for you.

If the upkeep of the house meanwhile is becoming too troublesome, tell him that, too. You do have the option of resigning your responsibilities, should it come to it.

He is entitled to keep his property, even if his ever benefiting from it directly again is just a fantasy. He isn't entitled to make you do work you don't want to do, though; but there are people who can be paid (by him) to do it instead.

This is great advice and suggestions. I like the idea of putting things in tubs for each sibling. This is a thankless job and a lot of work and just for "grins" she should keep track of the hours involved. As a POA, you don’t charge for hours like an executor does, but it would be worthwhile to tell your sibs what it took. Why won’t any of them help?
When my dad moved from his home to IL, we arranged for an estate sale, but for all 4 of us girls came from 4 different states and stayed in dad's home for several days to sort through his papers, shred, store, and divide up anything the 4 of us wanted to keep. Things we thought he might want were put into a couple of tubs into his storage locker. Furniture went into a storage unit when he moved again from IL to AL until we knew he was no longer asking for them. I finally donated all that to Salvation Army. Yes it’s a lot of work!! But as the POA, this is your responsibility even if you have lazy siblings. Do it now even though it’s easy to be resentful. It has to be done sooner or later and this is as good a time as any. Think of it as performing sacred work. Good luck.

Do what is best in this case. If Dad is not going back and you know the drill here, Do as you need to do now.

Very sad, a lifetime of memories that he is desperately holding onto. Not to mention the expense, property taxes, lawn care. I would definitely start cleaning out stuff, a little at a time. That will be easier for you in the long run. It will be hard for you, but it has to be done.

You’ll get plenty of answers so here’s a short one: siblings put up or shut up. Either they participate or they have no vote. Do what you need to do!

Bring all documents to a real estate attorney. Verify your authority to sale. If you are legally allowed, start the clean up/sale process ASAP with or without siblings.
Remind siblings they will have a place to sleep as they go through stuff and maybe cart away a few treasures. When extending the invitation to visit, make sure they understand you will have the refrigerator well stocked so they won't go hungry.

If they care about their father and their own sanity, they will recognize it's best not to discuss the sale of something he can't leg go of. Their resistance is maybe denial of what's unfolding. Since you are tasked with this nightmare, you haven't a choice but to accept what needs to be done.

Insurance. Tell the agent you are going to clear the house and put it up for sale. All's the agent needs to hear from you is "he is unable to live there anymore" or "my brother is taking care of him in CA now" and/or "he thinks he is returning home but he can not." I would not utter the word "vacant." The agent will realize the place is in fact vacant so you and he/she can discuss the proper insurance policy needed for the property between now and the time you sale.

The insurance company will likely convert to a plan for unoccupied/vacant properties. It's a higher premium, but a cost of business - i.e. selling the house and settling the estate. Insurance deals with these situations routinely.

Dad needs it handled due to his failing health and possible future need for nursing home care. Having the house sold prior to nursing home admission will save a lot of headaches and heartaches in your family. Do your siblings realize he may need sales proceeds to pay for future nursing home care? It's good your brother can take him in short term, but he may not be able to stay with your brother permanently.

Check with the state of Michigan and find out if they have a specific POA for a real estate transaction.

This would be the best way to get this done.

I had to do it in Nevada, even though I have DPOA and it specifically states that I can transact any and all business, including sales of real estate.

I would tell dad that you are learning the forms required to protect him and this is one that you really need to ensure that you can take care of his business.

If this is in a trust and you are the sole Trustee right now, you can sell the house. Read the trust, they usually are very clear what the trustee can do.

My FIL agreed to sell their house. They had moved to independent living and he knew they were not ever returning. By then, I had letter from neuropsych to say she was not competent. He still was; it was questionable but I did not have a doctor saying otherwise. We got to the point of signing sale paperwork. The house was part of a trust with each of them agreeing to be each other’s trustee and my husband as the trustee if they could not. The house trust listed her first which had been done in 1957 as a sweet gesture on FIL’s part. Now it meant they wanted her to sign a document to say she no longer wanted to be trustee for FIL. And he had to sign a similar one. No lawyer cared that she was totally mentally incompetent and had no idea what she was signing. And that we had testing and a letter to document that. She did sign it for us even tho it was not legal.

So even as POA for out of state father, he may have to sign. So get house ready to sell and talk to local attorney. It was not our attorney who wanted this, it was the lender for the seller. If it were me, I would get it ready to list and tell him we are selling the house. So what if he has a fit. He knows he is never going back. And it needs to be done and over with for all the reasons.

you could also try to ask him questions about how he sees the future, what does he expect to happen, why is he keeping house. Similar questions to those asked in the wonderful book, Being Mortal by Atul Gawande. That might jar him loose from the position he is stuck in and get him to agree.

Mardys, a comment on estate liquidation companies. My experience is limited, but I share it since it may affect whatever your father has in his house. I wanted an assessment of wordworking tools (radial arm and circular saws, planers, measuring tools, sanders, drills, and more), considering whether to donate (and get a 501(c)(3) donation) or to sell, but I didn't want to hold the sale myself as I knew some men would try to jerk me around and get bottom line prices for quality equipment. And I wasn't that familiar with the saws or capable of evaluating their serviceability.

So I contacted a few estate sale companies; they admitted they had no experience in shop tools, but did want to come out, inventory and price household goods, which I didn't need.

I did find an industrial estate sale company with someone who knew the difference between saws and other tools. He said their company typically doesn't handle any kind of industrial tool or similar estate sale unless the value of the contents was about $15K.

Eventually I found 2 very qualified wood and metal working schools to which I planned to donate the tools.

The problem title companies have with POAs is a "normal" POA acts on or executes the direction of the principal, so if they accept a POA and the principal later says he/she did not authorize the sale, then the title company may end up eating the sale price on the title they guaranteed. A "springing" POA does not even have any authority until the "springing" conditions named in the POA have been met. Documents documenting the "springing" conditions have been met (usually one or more letters from the principal's doctors) are usually enough to satisfy the title company and/or lending company.

Many banks want a POA completed on their own form, which is often impossible when the principal has cognitive issues. Once I had to get a court order for a bank to accept the 14 year old POA signed prior to any cognitive declines. Somehow state judges don't like multi-state businesses to refuse documents properly executed in the form required by the resident's state laws.

The home insurance payments are most likely money down the drain as the insurance company can decline to pay any claim as soon as they find out the house has been empty.

You would probably get more traction with his doctor if you provide a copy of the POA for his files and then request a statement verifying incompetency or inability to travel across country so you can sell the house and continue to fund your father's care. Sometimes it helps to have the letter written by an attorney in the doctor's jurisdiction. If the doctor will not respond, then try to get him on the line for a brief conversation where you state this is a final attempt to get what you need before petitioning a judge to order the doctor to provide a statement. If your father has a separate/different healthcare POA, then there's some question whether a DPOA can access medical records.

Good luck!

Wow, I hadn't considered that I couldn't sell the house (which is in trust and I'm trustee) and also have POA on other stuff. I guess I'll have to ask an attorney about it. Once it's done I sincerely don't think my sibs would make a fuss about me doing it without authority because they THINK I have authority. But whether the title company would recognize that I do is something I didn't know about. I unfortunately know no one in this town as I was grown up elsewhere so I'm on my own as far as helpers. The one doctor that said he couldn't move back won't put it in writing (CA legal reasons I guess) and only says...well if he gets better he can! I'll try again to get that in writing but I don't know if I can. For one thing I don't live in CA (I live 5 hours from them) and it's up to my brother and sister in law to do that for me and they don't lift a finger at my request. As far as the capital gains... you must live in the home for 2 out of 5 years in order to not have a gain on your principal residence. 2019 was the first full year he was in CA so that's the first year, 2020 will be the second year so by end of 2021 it needs to be sold... OR wait until he dies and then we all get step up value. The problem is, he may need that money at some point and houses in Southwestern Michigan take a while to sell. I TOTALLY resent that I now get to spend my summer (summers?) dealing with this as I've offered every year for 12 years and he procrastinated on it and I got zero support from sibs in convincing him.. and now zero support from sibs in doing the work. I will charge mileage for the long drive there... I wish I could charge my damn time! But I can charge for help to do this I guess so maybe I will hire an estate liquidation company to help. The empty house insurance is something that I'm going to have to fess up to with the insurance company I guess. They were very used to his 6 months here and 6 months in CA routine but now I probably should tell the truth... just in case. Frozen pipes have never been an issue in all these 12 years of being gone for the winter so whatever he has set up does seem to be working. I am so dreading this... and feeling very resentful... and guilty too.. I mean, he COULD get better and start asking more about his "stuff". Thanks for all the advice.

I would get a real estate attorney who is local to the area in Michigan on board now with the first question being do you as POA have authority to sign the papers at closing of a sale or not. If you do have authority, hire a realtor who knows the area well and start cleaning out the house while you have the time. Be prepared to get a big dumpster as donations will be hard to make because of the pandemic.

I agree with Igloo. Make it financially unfeasible to keep.

One addition, if the home is empty your homeowners insurance will not cover a loss. It is really expensive to get insurance for an empty property. However, as we all know insurance is cheaper than a loss, but you are looking at 3 or 4k annually for empty house coverage and it doesn't cover a lot of issues.

Have fun getting it cleared out and ready for sale.

I agree with everyone who says you should start NOW getting his home ready to sell but before you take that step to sell it please check with an attorney. When I sold my dad's home I had power of attorney, and luckily he had grudgingly agreed to the need to sell. I signed the paperwork with the realtor, etc and we got all the way to settlement when suddenly they wanted HIS signature on the final paperwork. I was again lucky that he was willing to sign. I can't imagine the issues had he suddenly changed his mind (which was always a concern.) I don't know why they wanted him to sign, or if it was just one of the whims of the settlement attorney, but in your situation, where you would be selling the house without his consent I'd be concerned. You can be in legal trouble if someone declared that you were not acting in your father's best interest i.e., his stated desire to NOT sell his house. Unless you could show that you HAD to sell the house for financial reasons. In that situation, it would be hard to make the case that it was in your father's best interests just because he wouldn't be using it anymore.

To get my dad to agree to sell the house I had to use the idea that he was being unfair to a new family who could enjoy the house and that since he wasn't living in it it would deteriorate and would be eventually bought by people who would have to tear it down and build a new house on his lot. He loved his house and the idea that it would be torn down unless he sold NOW was very compelling to him. Luckily the buyer was a young couple that he knew.