POA’s aren’t financially responsible/liable. What matters here is if and what you signed and how you signed it. As long as you signed as POA on your moms behalf, you aren’t responsible. Why are you having trouble getting her on medi-cal?
The family/children can be responsible depends on the state you live in. My state, oh yes they can. Nursing home bill wasn't paid. 2yrs later no probate. Sibling doesn't care. Lawyer for nursing home wants their money. So yes they can. Just dont ignore and tell them. They might have suggestions on how to help. Or maybe the social worker. They are good people. They might know a thing or two of what to do.
I am assuming that your mother is on Medicare. If that is the case you may want to call them and run this pass them. In general, Medicare does not pay for room and board (which in NJ runs about 275-300 per day) if you are on hospice and reside in a NH. There could be extenuating circumstances for short term hospice which is why I suggest you call them first. As you know, Medicare pays for skilled nursing and/or rehabilitation - hospice is neither so the room and board in this case would be the resident's obligation as a private pay if she is not yet on Medicaid. If you signed as PoA, you are not responsible to pay out of your personal funds but should Mom pass on, the payment would have to come out of her estate. Please let us know what information you get about this as it can be quite confusing. Hugs and prayers to you
Probably. I am in the sort of the same boat. It is nursing home for me, not hospice. Depends on your state. Try paying something on it monthly, so they see that you are trying. Call them up and tell them the situation. Dont ignore it. Maybe they have suggestions. I'm sure your not the first person this has happened to. Get someone to help you with the Medicaid paperwork or call the #numbers too see if there is anything they can do. Tell them your situation. Can you get her out of hospice if she is in the wing of the hospital? They have hospice folk come out to you, or a efficiency somewhere that would be cheaper than a hospital room. Those costs are outrageous. Good luck.
Youre right....they should bring them home if monthly money is being used to maintain the home but youll still be responsible for what is owed. Im really surprised that the hospice NH or whatever let the bill accumulate this high without sending the patient home.
Gorgenous, the bill is for the nursing home, not Hospice.
The nursing home needs monthly payments either by your Mom out-of-pocket, or from Medicaid [which is different from Medicare]. Did Medicaid tell you why your Mom is having trouble being accepted by Medicare?
The nursing home automatically will send out rent-due notices. Just curious is the nursing home a Hospice Nursing Home? Did anyone explain how the expenses work? That your Mom is responsible for the monthly rent?
I know, all of this can be complex at a time when it hard to think straight when a love one needs such care.
Youre exactly correct. NH usually take the monthly SS check pension or whatever patient receives.If that is being used simewhete else this is why tbey are asking for payment. Its that simple. Your love one was receiving some type of income where is it being used? If it doesnt cover the monthly bill I believe that is where medicaid will kick in if the person doesnt have any assets....ijs
You responsibility as the POA is to pay her bills out of her funds. If there is no money, then you are not responsible. Who applied for Medicaid you or the Nursing Home? If you, call Medicaid and ask what the problem is. Maybe they don't have all Moms info to complete the application. Were they given 5 years of bank statements? Did u get a drs. letter saying Mom needed 24/7 care? I was given a list of things I needed to present. I had 90 days from the time I applied to get the info to them and set Mom up in LTC and spend down her assets. If this isn't done in 90 days, you have to start over.
If the NH is helping you, then you need to find out what they have been doing. The bill is sent to you because ur the person of record. You need to sit down with the finance person and explain the situation. Moms SS and any pension should at least go to offset the cost. They will have to once she is on Medicaid.
Medicare pays for Hospice care. The Nurse, aide, Depends, wipes, medicine and other supplies. It does not pay for the facility.
Really need more info on how you applied for Medicaid. There is an income cap. In NJ it has to be under 2300. If Mom is over the cap then you need to find a way to put the xtra money into something like a Miller Trust. (Its called something different in different states)
You need to keep on top of the Medicaid caseworker. I did everything by email requesting he verify receipt of the info. When I did what needed to be done, I contacted him by phone. Told him money was spent down, Mom was in LTC under private pay and he had all the paperwork needed. I started the application in May and Medicaid started July 1. Mom was able to pay 2 months up front.
As mentioned in one prior response, some states have "filial responsibility" laws that require family members to foot bills for parents. This does not require the person named as POA for any reason to pay the bill.
Many people have their lawyers or bankers or trustee as POA. Those parties pay bills and make decisions on behalf of the elder, but they are not PERSONALLY liable for the bills. Bills are paid from the elder's resources. On the contrary, if you live in a "filial responsibility" state, children of the elder can be held personally responsible for things like nursing home bills, even if they don't hold POA. These laws exist since those states with filial responsibility laws feel that the state taxpayers should not food bills for individual elder care. Google if your state is a "filial responsibility" state to see what your obligations are.
As I said below, Filial laws are totally irrelevant here. Very few states actually enforce filial and the OP is NOT in one of those states! She is not responsible under filial law!
I am confused. Did she receive hospice care in the nursing home setting? If she had Medicare and it was authorized to be be provided in that setting. In Oklahoma, there are venues for problem resolution with nursing homes, etc. perhaps I missed the specifics, but i do know your documentation of events, bills, conversations, discharge paperwork, eligibility paperwork, and dates with associated names is extremely helpful. It’s such a complex process that it helps to share definitive timeline with the problem solvers.
Hospice is covered by Medicare (also covered by Medicaid) If they are billing for services she received while on Hospice (services covered by Hospice) they are double billing. Ask the Hospice for a breakdown of what they did on what days and what supplies and equipment they covered. Deduct any of that from the facility bill. (You could even ask the Social Worker from Hospice to help you out with this, it would be very easy with the EMR (electronic medical record) that they have to cross reference each day that you are being billed for. And This is your mothers bill to pay not yours.
I'm going to assume that when OP asked if they had to pay the bill, they were talking about paying from their own funds, not as a POA/fiduciary from the elder's funds. Two different things.
POAs are not responsible for using their own funds to pay bills.
It's alarming that you are getting any bill at all for hospice care; Medicare pays all hospice care. If she is in a SNF as a private-pay resident she might still be responsible for that, but she might not even be responsible for that bill. If she has her own funds she would have to pay these down before Medicaid kicks in. Check with your state agency and with Medicare re any hospice bill.
Misunderstanding: Medicare pays for Hospice Services, but if patient is in a facility then room and board are considered separate from hospice services and aren't covered. Lots of potential for confusion here.
strongly suggest you connect with a certified elder law attorney if you can afford it, one who charges by the task and have them assure you of correct info in your state as well help with the medicaid process. It can be complicated and messy and you want to make sure you do it right the first time so there are no delays...
Dont waste money on a lawyer. You don’t need one to help with the MEDI-CAL process. There are people employee by the DSS who are trained to get you through the process, it’s literally their job.
In California, our elder attorney told me no you cannot be held liable unless the account is a joint account. If you are only an authorized user and not a joint owner of the account you cannot be held liable either. When the Irrevocable Trust was drawn up, he told me to always sign my parents name (I’m POA) by your name as his/her attorney in fact. Example: (Parents name) by (Person who is signing) as his/her attorney in fact. By signing this way you are signing an authorization but you cannot be held financially liable for what you are signing. Also a debt collection employee who called regarding my late in-laws told me to write this on any paperwork, envelopes, letters and send back to the sender. Write: The estate is insolvent. Cease and desist all contact. This means that there is no money to pay the creditors and not to contact the parent etc. The creditors will try to convince you that you are responsible for your parents debt. Turn it around and ask if you are on the account as a joint owner and if they say no then they should not even be speaking with you about the bill.
I thought that there were POA's and durable POA's. I heard that with the durable poa, you aren't responsible for any bills at all. Someone correct me if I am mistaken.
A Power of Attorney is not responsible for that bill. I suggest using worriedinCali's excellent advice about going through the MEDI-CAL process. Thank you, worriedinCali!
As POA, You are Inded responsible if you are Rightly Entitled to do these Checks and Affairs for Mom. I woul dimagine with he rbeing in Hospice, You have all of theses POA Rights. Check into it. This bill is Part of her Financial Affairs.
Gor, can you come back and answer the questions that have been asked of you?
No one can really tell you yes or no based on the information that you have provided .
If you signed your name only as the responsible party, then you may be responsible. Regardless of what anyone says, because you accepted responsibility. So you can see how more information will get you better guidance.
Bill collectors are doing their job. But a POA doesn't pay with their own money. They will lie to get you to pay. Don't be intimidated, you're going through enough. Don't answer their questions everything you say is put into a data base. They are trying to establish her worth. Does she have a car? a house? annuities, etc. I repeat don't answer any questions. If you tell them not to call you they should oblige as every call is recorded...remind them of that. If you get letters, if you need to do something, kindly call them and explain you are working on the Medicaid. Remember they think she can't get the Medicaid because she has too much money. Remind them it's not the case. Stay strong, be with your Mom. Happy New Year
"Trouble getting Medicaid" = meaning? How has your mother been paying, thus far? Hospice bills are separate from Nursing home charges, usually, meaning for WHAT exactly are you being billed and from whom are you getting billed $25,000? Technically your mother is legally liable for services billed in her name.
No. Not unless you signed a guarantee for the payment. Children -- or anyone else -- are NOT responsible for parents' debts -- and visa versa for adult children.
The basic answer is no, as POA you are only able to carry out mom's business on her behalf and you aren't even duty bound to pay her bills with her money you are simply able to do this (use her funds to pay her bills). You are simply an extension of mom. Are the bills coming to you in your name or billed to mom with you listed as agent or something and to your address because it's the one you give for important communication?
The one caveat to this would be if when mom was admitted to her care facility you accepted personal responsibility for the bill but this should have been made very clear to you. Signing on mom's behalf as her POA and accepting a personal responsibility, making the bill your debt are two different things.
Familial laws and estate debts don't come into play even as a possibility until she has passed as far as I know and it doesn't sound like that's the case. I would be very careful though that they don't get you to accept personal responsibility, attempting to make payments, with mom's money and on her behalf and explaining her situation is more than fine but don't start doing it out of your account or telling them "you" will make payments. Think about it as responding as your mother, she can't speak so you are translating for her, use the term "we" or "she" not "me" whenever talking or acting for your mom.
Filial laws are not like MERP. They come into play when the person is alive. Person goes to NH with the anticipation of medicaid. Medicaid is pending for a long time or denied. NH is owed a lot of money that the patient can't pay. NH goes after the kids.
As POA, you are only responsible to pay your mothers bills from her available funds. My mother is on Medi-cal/Medi-caid, I don’t know the difference lol. The local office knows I’m POA so whenever a notice goes out they send one in my mother’s name and one in mine to my address. She receives Social Security and a very small pension. In California it’s called share of cost and it’s all paid to the nursing home except for $35 that she’s allowed to keep. The NH sends me a bill every month by email and they also know that I am POA. When I signed all of her paperwork I signed her name by my name as her attorney in fact. Per our elder attorney by signing this way I am not held liable for the debts. As for my in-laws who passed several years ago, they had added my husband and I onto their credit card as authorized users only although we never charged anything. Well unbeknownst to us, the credit card company ran our credit and it was listed as a joint acct and our debt even though we were only authorized users. They had NO social security numbers, dates of birth etc but there it was on our credit report looking as if we took on $10,000 more debt. I called the company and the jackass supervisor wasn’t going to remove my husband and I unless we paid for the funeral expenses of my mother in law which were actually charged by my father in law. I threatened etc but never paid a dime and disputed it with the credit bureau and it was removed. Don’t agree to pay anything.
As P.O.A., you are not “RESPONSIBLE” for anything, except acting in your mom’s best interest. You are NOT personally responsible for any debt that she may have incurred. You should let the nursing home know that you are aware of this. They are probably writing you as POA, only if SHE would have funds to pay them, not you.
THE ONLY WAY YOU WOULD BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY OF YOUR MOTHER'S BILLS IS IF YOU SIGNED ANY DOCUMENTS AGREEING TO BE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM.
Some Assisted Living, Long-Term Care Facilities (Nursing Homes) will attempt to get you to sign such documents. I know this from personal experience. The facility slipped the document into a stack of what they called "routine" papers they needed me to sign. But my folks didn't raise no dummy - they taught me to READ EVERY DOCUMENT BEFORE I SIGNED THEM & TO ASK (DEMAND IF NECESSARY) FOR COPIES.
I found it astounding what these facilities will try to get family members to agree to/sign for. The above was just one example.
I was my mom's legal guardian for the last 15 months of her life. In the Michigan Legal Guardianship Handbook, it specifically states -- never sign as "responsible party". Cross out the word "responsible" at the signature line. Replace that word with "legal guardian" (as in my case), or "representative".
"Responsible" means, responsible.
My mom's NH bill past due accumulated to some $3k while waiting for Medicaid approval. They reported me to Adult Protective Services during that time for misappropriation of my mom's funds. APS found no misappropriation of funds, as I was paying my mom's Blue Cross during that time, with her funds.
Read the nursing home contract, line by line with a ruler if necessary, and read it again. If the word responsible comes up, cross it out wherever it appears.
Please let us know what information you get about this as it can be quite confusing. Hugs and prayers to you
Get someone to help you with the Medicaid paperwork or call the #numbers too see if there is anything they can do. Tell them your situation.
Can you get her out of hospice if she is in the wing of the hospital? They have hospice folk come out to you, or a efficiency somewhere that would be cheaper than a hospital room. Those costs are outrageous. Good luck.
The nursing home needs monthly payments either by your Mom out-of-pocket, or from Medicaid [which is different from Medicare]. Did Medicaid tell you why your Mom is having trouble being accepted by Medicare?
The nursing home automatically will send out rent-due notices. Just curious is the nursing home a Hospice Nursing Home? Did anyone explain how the expenses work? That your Mom is responsible for the monthly rent?
I know, all of this can be complex at a time when it hard to think straight when a love one needs such care.
If the NH is helping you, then you need to find out what they have been doing. The bill is sent to you because ur the person of record. You need to sit down with the finance person and explain the situation. Moms SS and any pension should at least go to offset the cost. They will have to once she is on Medicaid.
Medicare pays for Hospice care. The Nurse, aide, Depends, wipes, medicine and other supplies. It does not pay for the facility.
Really need more info on how you applied for Medicaid. There is an income cap. In NJ it has to be under 2300. If Mom is over the cap then you need to find a way to put the xtra money into something like a Miller Trust. (Its called something different in different states)
You need to keep on top of the Medicaid caseworker. I did everything by email requesting he verify receipt of the info. When I did what needed to be done, I contacted him by phone. Told him money was spent down, Mom was in LTC under private pay and he had all the paperwork needed. I started the application in May and Medicaid started July 1. Mom was able to pay 2 months up front.
Many people have their lawyers or bankers or trustee as POA. Those parties pay bills and make decisions on behalf of the elder, but they are not PERSONALLY liable for the bills. Bills are paid from the elder's resources. On the contrary, if you live in a "filial responsibility" state, children of the elder can be held personally responsible for things like nursing home bills, even if they don't hold POA. These laws exist since those states with filial responsibility laws feel that the state taxpayers should not food bills for individual elder care. Google if your state is a "filial responsibility" state to see what your obligations are.
In Oklahoma, there are venues for problem resolution with nursing homes, etc. perhaps I missed the specifics, but i do know your documentation of events, bills, conversations, discharge paperwork, eligibility paperwork, and dates with associated names is extremely helpful. It’s such a complex process that it helps to share definitive timeline with the problem solvers.
If they are billing for services she received while on Hospice (services covered by Hospice) they are double billing.
Ask the Hospice for a breakdown of what they did on what days and what supplies and equipment they covered.
Deduct any of that from the facility bill.
(You could even ask the Social Worker from Hospice to help you out with this, it would be very easy with the EMR (electronic medical record) that they have to cross reference each day that you are being billed for.
And
This is your mothers bill to pay not yours.
Bill collectors use scare tactics. The minute you pay, you become responsible and they use that knowledge against you.
It is not your bill. It is not your responsibility.
It's alarming that you are getting any bill at all for hospice care; Medicare pays all hospice care. If she is in a SNF as a private-pay resident she might still be responsible for that, but she might not even be responsible for that bill. If she has her own funds she would have to pay these down before Medicaid kicks in. Check with your state agency and with Medicare re any hospice bill.
Example: (Parents name) by (Person who is signing) as his/her attorney in fact.
By signing this way you are signing an authorization but you cannot be held financially liable for what you are signing.
Also a debt collection employee who called regarding my late in-laws told me to write this on any paperwork, envelopes, letters and send back to the sender. Write: The estate is insolvent. Cease and desist all contact. This means that there is no money to pay the creditors and not to contact the parent etc.
The creditors will try to convince you that you are responsible for your parents debt. Turn it around and ask if you are on the account as a joint owner and if they say no then they should not even be speaking with you about the bill.
Did you receive her social security check or pension check?
Did you use her assets to pay for her care until she was broke?
Was she in a nursing home and went on hospice or was she in a hospice facility?
This is important information that will get you some guidance, I think there is a lot of unknowns to really help guide you.
No one can really tell you yes or no based on the information that you have provided .
If you signed your name only as the responsible party, then you may be responsible. Regardless of what anyone says, because you accepted responsibility. So you can see how more information will get you better guidance.
The one caveat to this would be if when mom was admitted to her care facility you accepted personal responsibility for the bill but this should have been made very clear to you. Signing on mom's behalf as her POA and accepting a personal responsibility, making the bill your debt are two different things.
Familial laws and estate debts don't come into play even as a possibility until she has passed as far as I know and it doesn't sound like that's the case. I would be very careful though that they don't get you to accept personal responsibility, attempting to make payments, with mom's money and on her behalf and explaining her situation is more than fine but don't start doing it out of your account or telling them "you" will make payments. Think about it as responding as your mother, she can't speak so you are translating for her, use the term "we" or "she" not "me" whenever talking or acting for your mom.
Here's a famous case.
https://www.elderlawanswers.com/son-liable-for-moms-93000-nursing-home-bill-under-filial-responsibility-law-9873
You should let the nursing home know that you are aware of this. They are probably writing you as POA, only if SHE would have funds to pay them, not you.
Some Assisted Living, Long-Term Care Facilities (Nursing Homes) will attempt to get you to sign such documents. I know this from personal experience. The facility slipped the document into a stack of what they called "routine" papers they needed me to sign. But my folks didn't raise no dummy - they taught me to READ EVERY DOCUMENT BEFORE I SIGNED THEM & TO ASK (DEMAND IF NECESSARY) FOR COPIES.
I found it astounding what these facilities will try to get family members to agree to/sign for. The above was just one example.
"Responsible" means, responsible.
My mom's NH bill past due accumulated to some $3k while waiting for Medicaid approval. They reported me to Adult Protective Services during that time for misappropriation of my mom's funds. APS found no misappropriation of funds, as I was paying my mom's Blue Cross during that time, with her funds.
Read the nursing home contract, line by line with a ruler if necessary, and read it again. If the word responsible comes up, cross it out wherever it appears.