As my mother's POA, how do I deal with a financially dependent (adult) sibling?

You aren't there. They are. I pay at least $21/hr for a caregiver who keeps my schedule sane, takes me to appointments, manages my meds, does the housekeeping and prepares meals for me. So, I suggest that you try accounting for the time and effort that SIL and Bro are putting into the equation and be honest with them. If an expense is out of bounds, say so. Don't bottle it up and get all pruney-faced over their transgressions. It won't make you any prettier and won't solve any problems.

Take care of your mom first. That is your #1 fiduciary duty.

Next, follow your mom’s wishes. That is your #2 moral responsibility to your mom. She chose you for this job because she knew you would do both of these things.

As others have written, your mom is incredibly lucky to have family present and helping. She obviously recognized this and helped them also in a way that was meaningful to them. Their dedication is invaluable and priceless. Your brother and sister in law may not be the most fiscally responsible citizens of the world, however, they are in the top percent of compassion, dedication and devotion.

You feel that your mom “contributed” to their financial situation by helping them limp along— but maybe she has instead been a lifeline for them — the “half full” way of looking at the situation is that she raised a son who is loving and kind who chose a compassionate and emotionally generous spouse — certainly this is not the norm in our country these days. Most people outsource most familial responsibilities to strangers. Many people spend most of their time focused on their cell phones.

You are lucky to have such a brother. Cherish him.

Instead of judging his missteps, be glad that you are lucky (yes, luck is part of it) and smart enough to create and choose a better financial position for yourself. Be grateful that your mom raised a brother like him. He allows you to rest easy knowing that your mom is getting TLC with minimal disruption to your own lifestyle.

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If your SIL takes care of your mother, runs her errands, takes her to doctor's appointments and generally looks after her, I would say don't make too much of a big deal about what she gives her and your brother.
Since they do not live with her so they must be managing themselves and a home. So what if she's helped them out? That's her son and DIL. She'd do the same for you I'm sure if you were in need.
Maybe think of it in these terms. If your brother and your SIL were to stop looking after your mom, she would end up in a care facility or if she was lucky with full-time homecare help. If you think whatever money she gives your brother and SIL is outrageous, check out how much one month of private cash-pay in a nursing home, assisted living facility, or full-time homecare comes out to.
Does she give your brother or SIL $10,000 a month? That's about average cash-pay for room and board in a poor quality NH in my state.
A half way decent AL facility is about $6,000 a month here. God forbid if you ever have to hire private aides for someone in AL and many people do.
If she needs homecare, private pay will cost less than a care agency will charge. A full-time aide (40 hours a week) that's going to run at least a grand a week or better. An agency even more.
Unless your mother is handing out this kind of money to your brother and SIL for taking care of her, you shouldn't get too upset over what she's given them.

At 84, you really have to be considering how long her money will last and if there is the slightest chance she could run out and have to apply for a Medicaid nursing home bed if her care became more than could be handled at home.

Medicaid, for now, looks back 5 years for money that was given away. Total amts of money determine the penalty period where she would be self pay before Medicaid would kick in and start paying the bills. And if there's not a employer/employee relationship established for tax reporting purposes, the money she gives them is considered gifting.

Perhaps mom helped them financially because they have been good about helping her. Going forward, what you may need to do for compensation for things they do is to create an actual employer/employee relationship and start paying for things the right way. Why not explain the Medicaid penalty to them and let them know you will have to come up with some kind of monthly, hourly, or whatever pay amount. Better than paying a total stranger and can prevent some family problems later on. You are luckier than some because there is a sibling living close and he/his wife are willing to help mom. Have the discussion with them and then talk with an elder atty or CPA to help you set up legal documents that will detail payment amts/arrangements and either contract labor 1099 at end of the year, where they pay taxes on earnings if they make over $600 per year (I think that's the trigger amt) or you take taxes out per pay day so they don't have to come up with extra tax money they might not have.

I'm very glad to read how clearly you respect the point that part of your duty is to act in line with your mother's wishes. It's so often overlooked!

As these are early stages, isn't the best thing to speak to your mother and brother at the same time? - find out from him what he has to say for himself, from her what support she is prepared to give him in improving matters, and make clear to both of them that the gifting needs to be brought to an orderly halt because of the Medicaid implications. Is there anything particular about your brother or his circumstances that would make it impossible to achieve any budgeting discipline (addictions, chronic underpaid employment, e.g.)? And what about the debt: how was it accrued and how can it be got rid of?

You mention that her brother shares her house - is he going to become an issue?

My first thought here is: can you put a monetary value on what you SIL does for your mother? Or has that even come into your thought process. Whether or not you mom mom enabled their inability to be financially independent it would be short-sighted to think they are purposely taking advantage. Maybe they, all three of them plus you, are “exactly where they need to be”. Life works it’s way though obstacles. You have POA so you can monitor their expenditures and look at it as a way to (help) teach them. They, not you, are with mom, toss a little gratefulness their way and maybe things will not look so bleak.
with love and light

AKKaren: This is going to be a problem wherein it is considered gifting if your mother should ever have to apply for Medicaid.

Create a plan with the goal of meeting Mom's needs with eventual move to memory care - since almost all seniors with dementia progress to needing 24/7/365 care. Let family know what this budget supports in terms of travel, groceries.... and how much you are able (willing) to reimburse for her care. A good rule of thumb is to pay for gas, her groceries, her medications, and her share of utilities (if they live with her). Tell them that with increasing costs that Mom's money just doesn't go as far as if used to and that they will need to find additional sources of income - as so many people are having to do.

Mom pays for all car repairs, vet bills, lawn care, some groceries, has replaced appliances, the list is long!
If I am reading this right, they LIVE with Mom, so would the appliances not be hers? Is the lawn not hers? Does she love the pets? And whose car, and does she get driven to and fro in it? I'm not being smart arssed .. just asking. Since you say her financials are in good shape,, I would be happy to have those things covered as they are taking great care of her.An you don;t seem to be a position to do those things that they are done. They sound pretty wonderful to me!

My first reaction is not printable. Your brother and SIL have been and continue to care for your mom while you live your life. And do a wonderful job, you say. But you’re angry that your mom’s appreciation is reciprocated by helping them financially…. because, one can only assume, you believe their efforts should be free? Or you won’t inherit as much?

You give an excellent impression of the clueless relative. Your brother and duster in law ARE being responsible caregivers. Do you have any idea of the stress, the emotions, the day to day time and energy it takes to care for an elder parent, much less one who has problems with lucidity?

Your mother has instructed you to follow her wishes. The bills aren’t frivolous. Just do it.

And for a point of reference, a caregiver I knew got $60,000/year plus employer 8% social security contributions, room, board and access to the car. Housekeeping not a part of the job description.

Good Afternoon,

Folks let me chime in...don't you love it, if I were King for a day, this is what I would do.

Bottom line: Who shows up in life and who is doing all the work? Whether it's paid or unpaid, the caregiver is busting their hump. Enough said...

Here is my take-I feel that OP wants to be generous with brother and SIL and appreciates their love and care for mom, but knows that even if she pays them legally for the care their lack of ability to handle finances well will just make the problem worse. Then it won’t just be a broken appliance or a vet bill they will need help with…The funds that were used to pay them will be squandered because of poor money management and then they will expect more. They will use the same emotional appeals they have always used that got them the handouts. Then they will go thru moms funds 2x as fast AND if she puts her foot down and says NO, we can’t pay that, we already paid you, then feelings will be hurt and relationships will be at odds. That is what makes this situation so complicated.

It sounds to me like a mutually beneficial relationship. The family living with her isn’t getting paid to take care of her daily needs, and is helping her out so you don’t have to. If you are against the arrangement they’ve decided on, then perhaps you need to move her in with you or use her money to buy an in home care taker and kick out the family that’s doing her caretaking at this time. I apologize if I sound harsh but I’m in the same situation as your SIL and the out of state sibling who manages her money isn’t doing anything else to help with her daily needs which is exhausting and makes working full time almost impossible. She doesn’t think her mother needs the help but that’s because we are doing it all and she lives out of state and doesn’t see what we put up with. My MIL refuses to hire anyone else to help her and never asked us to be her caretakers, it was assumed it was our job because we reside in the home and in the past year her health has declined terribly. We have tried to pull back so she realizes she needs hired help but it’s not working. On top of her mental decline she is a hoarding narcissist so of course no one wants to get involved in the family, skirt’s responsibility, and is in denial about her growing needs. We plan to leave because it’s become terrible for our relationship, but had hoped she would get the care she needs before we leave. Everyone in the family says if you don’t like it, leave, but they don’t seem to care that when we do, she is likely to get hurt and could die. She leaves stove burners on, reuses dirty toilet paper when she uses the toilet, she hoards and doesn’t take care of anyones sanitary needs. No one is supporting our efforts in getting hired help. If I were you, I’d be grateful someone is there and willing to take care of her, at no pay. Now if they are stealing from her or abusing her in anyway that’s different. If they help out and in exchange the mother helps them out with financial struggles, I don’t see how this is different than paying them for their services.

I have the opposite problem/issue. I, besides my dad who does not talk to me for various reasons, am the only financially responsible person in our family. Which consists of me, my mom, my sister...that is not much of a family. I am POA of both finances and medical and recently became trustee when the neurologist wrote a letter saying she is cognitively impaired. (and she won't walk again, this was the most heartbreaking appointment) but it has allowed me to go to the bank and the lawyer to become a trustee. My sister is sooooo irresponsible with money and my mom has given her thousands over the years and has never been paid back. I am 55 and she is 58, we live a block from each other and are 20 minutes from my mom (who My mom and I are paying 2170.00 a week for 24/7 caretaking because she is bed bound and in diapers after her stroke.) I am sobbing as I write this. My sister NEVER calls my mom and sees her for 2 hours a week to give Rose, our angel/caretaker time to get her mail. selfishly, my sister deserves NOTHING after taking my mom's money and love for 58 years and ignoring her during a time when she is suffering, and can't move. I am honest that my sister deserves nothing, my mom has IRA'S in our names and she split her Co-op between my sister and me 50/50 if we ever have TO SELL IT., but I am in charge, my sister and I don't talk, so if my mom leaves this earth, am i fully responsible for her belongings? I love my mother so much, she is my best friend, I see her almost every day, do the grocery shopping, have spent hours on the phone and emailing with doctors, and do it all for her comfort and because it kills me that her simple desires, walk to Whole Foods and walk to the lake and read a book have all been taken away in the snap of a finger. I call her 3 times a day and just want the rest of her life to have some joy, and I know my company helps that. But watching how selfish my sister brings out my ego and anger and makes me want revenge. I don't like that part of myself, but I have no one else and I have been doing everything since December 20, 2021, by myself. My cousin in Boston and my sister said I am too emotional and can't deal with myself...so I want to be just as hurtful and have them feel the pain I am going through emotionally, but they will only feel it financially. What are my obligations?

I'm not an attorney, but have a lot of personal experience in a similar situation. Here is what I have learned.

If there are no medical records stating mom lacks capacity, then as her POA, you are not only responsible for paying her bills, but also for spending her money as she directs. This has consequences, because if she has to go to an Assisted Living, the cost will be about 10,000 per month. That is not sustainable for extended periods of time for most people, even if they have hundreds of thousands of dollars saved. Once her money runs out, she will need to apply for medicaid, and be transferred to a facility that accepts medicaid. Medicaid will review all her spending for the last 2-5 years, and will not allow for unaccounted spending to count towards her financial criteria. Which leaves not only you, but your sibling, in a bind.

If you do have medical records stating that mom is cognitively diminished, or lacks capacity (ie, dementia or mild dementia), then your role as POA changes drastically. At that point, legally, you can only spend money on things that benefit mom. You can pay for things she wants, but only if they directly benefit her. Any spending which does not benefit her is considered financial exploitation of a vulnerable adult, which is a criminal charge. However, your sister in law is providing a legitimate service for your mom, and it seems your mom, in lieu of paying her directly, is gifting her things she needs. For legal and insurance reasons, this needs to change.

Meet with your brother and sil. Explain that mom may need to go to assisted living and apply for medicaid in the future. Because of this, you need to change the way they are reimbursed for their care of her. Explore stay at home caregiving costs, and pay them accordingly. (It sounds to me like mom is getting about $5,000 per month worth of care from sister in law (the going rate in my area for daily caregiving).) Do not overinflate the salary, because you must be careful not to exploit mom to benefit your family members, either. However, the level of care they are providing definately has value.

As poa your responsible for paying for care she receives, since you already stated SIL does a tremendous amount you can either continue to allow the current arrangement or start paying sil a hefty paycheck for all she does, you state you live across the country so you aren’t involved in helping at all, the help SIL gives you won’t find from a random non related caregiver. Any caregiver you hire would not do all the extras sounds like the sister does without an expectation of being paid for every minute of it. I would leave it as it is sounds like you were able ti see her finances are in good order so there isn’t anything to fix unless like some others said you begin immediately paying the sister a generous paycheck

Suggestion is to give you the good news, there isn’t a need to fix something that’s not broken
What was the reason you decided to get poa for your moms money as you said she’s of overall sound mind in her early 80’s and able to live on her own ? Younger sibling and wife are extremely helpful to her you report, and her finances appear in excellent standings. Curious under those circumstances why you would have a desire for poa, you mentioned you live across the country as well

I have a different point of view about money from many people.

But OP, the bottom line is, I think you must follow your conscience and do what you feel is right: only you know your family members, and all the reasons that led to your brother being financially dependent.

Here is my view on money:
1. If the world valued the right things, your brother and SIL might actually be millionaires (lovingly caring for your mother).
2. Other people who have so-called "jobs" might be penniless, because in my view, some "jobs" aren't really jobs. Just the fact that you get paid, in my opinion, doesn't mean you're actually doing a job.
3. Just because our laws say, this is a "job" doesn't make it a job.
4. Just because our laws say, this isn't a "job" doesn't mean it's not a job. For example, all the thousands of hours our mothers, through all generations in the history of humankind, have helped their families, raised their children, unpaid.

Regarding you OP:
1. If your brother borrowed money from his mother, I see nothing wrong with it.
2. Many families help each other financially. I see nothing wrong with it.
3. The one who helps the most the mother, loses many hours, which they could have used to earn money, get a well-paid job.
4. Many adult children who care (for example for their mother) end up in this vicious circle: they're kind, they help, they lose time, they get poorer, they need some way to earn money, but the mother needs more help and needs more of their time, they lose job opportunities.

I look forward to the day the world values (financially) the right things, and rewards - financially - the right people.

I'd like to see, who is poor then.

Is your POA immediate or Springing. Springing meaning you need one or two Doctors making a formal diagnosis of Dementia. If its immediate you may be able to do something. You may want to talk to a lawyer to get a good meaning of what your POA allows you to do. Make it an elder lawyer.

For me, Mom was found incompetent. So her finances were now in my hands. I knew exactly how much money she had. Which was not a lot. If she had been supporting a sibling, that person would be told they were no longing getting anything from her. Actually, my disabled nephew was living with her and out of the money he was receiving, he paid her room and board.

I would look at it this way, she paid them to care for her. It would have cost her to hire someone to do what your brother and SIL did. Your Mom has cognitive problems with this comes not being able to reason. Moms really not in the place to make informed decisions. Thats were the POA comes in. You need to sit down with brother and SIL and thank them for all they have done and will do for Mom. If Mom gets worse cognitive wise, she may need care in a NH. You all need to understand what that means. It means at least 10k a month in the NH private pay. It means when the money starts running out, Mom will need to apply to Medicaid. Most states have a 5 yr look back. Within that time Medicaid looks at bank statements and may question any large purchases. Buying a refrigerator for DB is a gift, it can cause a penalty and Mom cannot receive Medicaid until the penalty period is done. Have figures showing that Moms money needs to be conserved or it won't last.

As POA you are there to protect Moms money not carry on what she did before. As POA, you can pay your SIL for what she does. Have a contract written up by a lawyer, explaining the duties she is being paid to do and how much she will be paid. Medicaid will except this as part of her care. This contract may change as Moms needs become more. I think this can be done without accusing anyone or telling them to learn to budget their money. You may want to say that you noticed Mom has been helping them out and your hoping by paying SIL this will help them out because you can no longer pay out for the things Mom has been. The money she has is for her bills and any future care she needs. And maybe some day she will need care in a NH with Medicaid paying. If so, her SS and any pension will go towards her care.

Really, brother has to realize Mom will not always be there. She could pass tomorrow. What a shock that would be. Mom no longer there to hand out money. Now we have to mow our own lawn and get rid if the animal we can't afford.

One solution would be to pay your sister in law from Mum's funds for all the care giving work she is doing.

Explain to your bother and sister in law, that Mum's finances must be used to cover her costs, which include all the help SIL is providing. Pay her a proper wage , legally.

As the poa, you are legally responsible to spend moms money on her own care.

Request an accounting of hours and duties from SIL. The SIL should be paid for her services at a competitive rate for the services she provides. Other than that, there should be no subsidies to them from your mom.

My suggestion is that with a Mom who is doing this despite all it means to her (and at minimum, given she is failing, she will have no access to medicaid with the "gifting she has done" for from 2 1/2 years (California) to 5 years (nearly everywhere else), and you out of state, removed from all this, is that you are in a dreadful and quite helpless position in total.
Unless you have control over all mom's finances (and this will be difficult removed as you are) she remains prey to those living with her. Once there is no money they will be gone. And where does that leave Mom? And what can you do about it?
I was POA and Trustee of Trust for a brother across the state from me. It was excurciating getting everything together for sale of his last home, move to ALF and getting payment for all bills transferred to me as POA still keeping his mail coming to him. An absolute nightmare and were I to have a penny for every hour waiting on the phone I would be rolling in money.
What can you imagine yourself can be done here. Short of moving Mom near you in a controlled environment (and what money is there left to do that) I cannot imagine a single thing you can do her other than to frustrate yourself into an anxious mess over it all.
You are legally bound to let Mom do what she pleases with her money as long as she has no diagnosis of dementia at all. After that you are legally bound to PROTECT her money. That means she has control of nothing but a small spending account. However, at that point the leeches will leave the bloodless farm to richer pastures. Mom will be broke and unable to get medicaid.
You need to see an attorney ASAP and lay all this out. You are in a dreadful position. This is difficult enough with a wonderful, organized, careful and rational person (which was my bro.) But in this case, it is imho impossible, and I would not myself attempt it.

Ugh, this is tough. You want/need to step in and make some serious changes.

Can you call for an 'all hands meeting' where the whole family meets and discusses what can be done? If it's just you and SIL--tread lightly.

Perhaps SIL is simply exhausted form the caregiving and feels completely correct in taking money for life's daily needs from MIL. In any regard, that has to stop.

The financial mess WILL eventually catch up with them. With possible horrendous outcomes.

How long have you had POA?

Tread gently, this is family, and these people are taking on an onerous job.

IF mom's wishes are to support B & SIL, then it should be in writing and re-visited from time to time to make sure it's all aboveboard.