After years of caring for your spouse with dementia, when he/she no longer recognizes you, when is it OK to move on, while still caring?

This question comes up from time to time and is very controversial.

Be forewarned! No preaching from me but others may.

Your ‘friend’ is the only one who can decide what he wishes to do in this situation.

Has he told you that he wants a female companion?

Some people are not the least bit interested in being with someone else. Others long for companionship.

He’s capable of figuring this out for himself.

If he hasn’t shown a need to discuss such a personal matter, I wouldn’t bring it up.

That’s just me. I am not a prude but I would feel very uncomfortable addressing a topic that is so intimate.

You are wonderful to be there to support your friend. This is really his call and I would not encourage other companionship in that way. Encourage clubs, sports other things without the female focus. Maybe a men's only support group. There are such things.

A friend's Mother met a new 'friend' after years of home care then NH visits to her early onset Alz Husband. She seemed extremely comfortable with the concept, no guilt.

But such a personal choice. If your friend wished to seek counselling to explore that topic I would certainly support that.

My Grandma who was very practical, would visits old friends with Dementia until they stopped recognising her. Then she said goodbye & let them go.

This question brings the religious moralists out in flocks. One experience I had was a work colleague whose mother had early onset dementia, non-recognition etc. His father divorced her and found another partner. Father said that he had only one life, and this was the only way he was prepared to live it. His son who I knew was totally alienated from his father over the issue. I felt sorry for all of them. It could be worthwhile for your own friend to consider how this may affect other friends and family members, and whether he will need to create a whole new circle of support – not easy to do as you get older.

Sometimes it is the person with ALZ that makes new ‘companions’ in their facilities.

Many spouses find this a difficult reality to face.

It sounds as if your friend would benefit more from this stupid wretched blasted virus getting gone as soon as it likes and the sooner the better - that's what has forced him, like so many others, into isolation and separation from the wife he cares for so loyally.

It has also denied him the companionship of all of the people at the facility, professionals and other families, who formed an important community for him. Not only can he not benefit from their insight and their care for his wife, but - much worse for him - he has not been able to contribute to their work as I'm sure he must have done. No visits, no enrichment, no guidance for them as to her habits and preferences. It's been agonising for spouses and families.

I'm not quite sure what you have in mind when you say "simple female companionship"? Unless it's someone who's in much the same boat as he is, I don't see there could be anything simple about it. What sort of special friend is going to provide him with a recreational relationship while accepting at the same time how important his commitment to his wife is to him?

One line I would stick to very firmly is that of NOT making any suggestions to him about moving on. If he initiates any changes in that direction then by all means be supportive, but don't try to start anything. He will when he's good and ready.

And, of course, you could always direct him to AgingCare! - Is he online?

I’ve just re-read the old Victorian book for girls called ‘What Katy Did’. Katy is a tomboy who has an accident that keeps her bedridden. She learns from her older friend Helen, who was engaged to be married before she became disabled herself (the disability details in these old books are a bit vague). Helen broke her engagement for her fiance’s benefit. He married someone else, he and his wife lived next door to Helen and her doctor father in their small town, both of them loved Helen dearly, and called their first child ‘Helen’.

How does that square up with what any of us would wish for our spouses if we were even more disabled – if we couldn’t recognise them? Would we want to be as self-sacrificing as Helen? Or as kind to her if we were the other survivor fiance or spouse? These old books seem a bit maudlin, but sometimes the ethics are worth thinking about.

You are a true friend indeed. Wouldn't it be great if we all had someone caring about our wellbeing as you care for your friend?

I wouldn't suggest moving on to him, whatever that may mean. There are some "sacrifices" that married couples choose to make for each other during their lifetime. If your friend is commited to being faithful don't disuade him, Disregarding one's own conscience can have unintended consequences.

Continue to support him as you have. If he's struggling with depression or even some guilt in becoming detached from her, maybe suggest he speak to his pastor if he has a church, address his problems with his doctor or even seek professional help with a counselor. A dementia support group could help him also. The Alzheimer's assn offers support groups throughout the nation for any and all types of dementia. Go to alz.org.

Answering here as a wild eyed hide bound religious Traditionalist- this is a decision that can ONLY be made by the spouse/covictim of this insidious horror.

No one CAN know besides the covictim him/her self.

And any daughter or son that criticizes a survivor parent ought to think forward to how THEY may feel if THEY become a part of the half-loss of lingering dementia.

Friends, extended family, curious onlookers? Can you FIND it in your heart to maintain loving silence and back off from any judgment at all?

I would say the depression comes from not being able to be with his wife and COVID. Some men are loyal to the end so I wouldn't even mention another woman to him.

Your wife's friend sounds like she is in the last stages of her life. No matter how physically healthy she is, when the desease gets to the part of her brain that controls her breathing and heart, she will die. Her brain has been dying little by little. And this isolation in NHs to keep the COVID at bay, is not helping those with a Dementia.

Maybe he should see if a Church nearby has an ALZ/Dementia ministry. Some Churches are able to keep the 6 ft, wear a mask rule. This way he will be with people with like problems. Maybe he can join members at lunch or dinner.

Why does it have to be "simple" female companionship? What's wrong with just doing more things with his male friends? There is nothing "simple" when a spouse chooses to keep company with someone of the opposite sex, to cure their loneliness. Really nothing good can come from it.

Most of us that are married or have been married(I'm newly widowed)have taken our wedding vows very seriously, especially the "in sickness and in health, till death do us part", and I commend your friend for wanting to do just that. You should be encouraging that, instead of trying to stir the pot.

My husband had a massive stroke a year and a half after we were married,(he was 48 and I was 36)which left him permanently disabled, and our lives turned completely upside down. I am proud and honored to say that I stuck with him through all the many issues he endured(and there were a lot) the entire 26 years we were married. Not once did I ever think of finding some "simple" companionship from another male. I just made sure that I did plenty of things with my female friends, children and grandchildren, to keep me from getting burned out or lonely.

So there are so many other things your friend can be doing to cure his depression and loneliness,(even with Covid going on) other than seeking "simple" female companionship, and I hope and pray that you will encourage him to find those things.

What exactly was he hopeful and enthusiastic about? Does he not know his life and his wife as he knew her are over? Perhaps he is going through a phase of realization that things are never going to be like the old normal. Humans are capable of making adjustments, but sometimes there is an in between time of turmoil before they have learned to find routine and contentment with their present lives. With the COVID, the vast majority of people are not living normal lives. There my be an extra layer of adjustment for him, but I would suggest to him that there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel as far as the isolation he is experiencing now, and that life can be good again.

Might you be the 'simple female companionship' you feel would benefit your dear friend so greatly? The special someone who could offer him a brighter side of life and perhaps lift his spirit?

Just wondering, because it seems inappropriate for you to be suggesting such a thing on behalf of this man, in my opinion.

Caring Friend, there are some things too close and intimate for friendship; if this gentleman you are about has not brought up this subject I would not yourself bring it up. It is entirely up to him how, when, and in what ways to move on. I have known a woman, friend of my Aunt, whose husband was many years in care, thought he was married to another woman there and would happily sit holding hands with her, and would introduce his visiting wife as "My good friend". She never chose to "move on". She passed through grief at her loss, to being comforted by this relationship for her dear husband.
This is individual as a thumbprint, and entirely up to your friend. I am grateful he has you and you will be ready to discuss this if he ever chooses to.

I feel your pain. Some of us are in very lonely marriages and our spouses are alive and well--just no longer interested in us or anything to do with us. It's painful, embarrassing and a problem that I personally cannot fix, for myself or anyone else.

I MISS the man I married. He changed 180 degrees 6 months after we married. Got a job in his field and has been married to his job for 45 years. Marks the anniversary of his 'job hire' and routinely forgets our anniversary and my birthday, year after year.

Whatever you choose, I personally would not judge you. We only get this one life. I have been without any physical touch or kind words for so many years I can't even count. (actually I can--it's been over 10) I am so grateful for loving sons in law who all see this and give me big hugs and tell me they love me. For grandkids who hug me so hard and long. Were it not for my seeking this love--I think I would have walked out of this marriage years ago. B/C of covid, you can't hug anyone--and it's painful, physically painful.

If you choose to have a relationship, while your wife is still alive I would not judge you one bit. I'll be there in a few years, I imagine.

The wife you knew and loved--she's gone. So sad that people 'die' often long before they spiritually leave the world.

And I am a very religious woman. So adultery is out---but do I want a friendship with a man who would treat me well? I'd adore it.

No judgment here. You sound like a lovely, loving man.

Thanks for your response to me. I appreciate knowing more about your friend’s situation.

I was unfamiliar with the Stephen Ministry. I just read about it and it appears to be a very caring ministry.

I have friends who are members of the Methodist church but I wasn’t familiar with this particular ministry. I enjoyed reading about it.

I have been to weddings in the Methodist church, Christmas concerts and so on. They were lovely.

I am quite sure that your friend has benefited from having a caring friend to listen to his feelings on this matter.

I commend you for participating in a worthwhile ministry. I appreciate how extensive the program educates others on how to interact with those in need.

It is lovely to see a person who is walking the walk and practicing their faith by providing an ear to listen and a heart to care, during the most difficult and challenging time in his life.

Thank you for being a wonderful caring person in his life and in society.

An old guy, 20+ years older than me, hit on me repeatedly two years ago. He said he is 75, but I suspect he's older. We have never met in person - this was all by Zoom and work-related phone calls. His wife was in the same state as your friend's wife. I was unable to get out of a project we were both on, but it was hugely uncomfortable for me to politely turn down his frequent and sometimes explicit requests for intercourse(!!!) He enjoyed telling me he'd cheated on his wife many times in their life together. NOT like your friend at all!

I know that men who were the overlords of females in the 1950s-70s sometimes have no clue how unwelcome their advances are to women, especially women who are just trying to be professional, nice and polite.

Morally, I have no problem with their needs in his situation, although I do wonder if they'd be able to fulfill their fondly-recalled, likely mythical, physical prowess of younger days. I can imagine it's just a mask for wanting companionship, which is so incredibly sad. That's why I didn't go all #MeToo on the old gent who was so inappropriate with me.

You did NOT mention anything like this in your friend's behaviours, so perhaps he's not "that type", at least as far as you know. But if you are capable of gently encouraging him to just start by socializing with other men, and ladies his own age, and pointing out that this need not lead to...anything more...then maybe he could find comfort and not make someone else uncomfortable.

You say that "your friend" is "very active in his church and leads a Bible study", and sounds like you are involved quite a bit in your church as well, and that "he has been firm in his belief that he must remain faithful to her until she passes." And yet you say that he's the one who brings it up and not you, and that you are just there "to support and encourage him in whatever choices he makes." You both should know what the Bible teaches on marriage and adultery, and if you were a true "Christian" friend, you certainly wouldn't be encouraging him to sin, if that were the choice he makes. It always concerns me when someone tries to present a situation that is fishy at best, and then try to use God and religion, as a guise. There is nothing Godly about a married man spending time with a woman that's not his wife. Regardless of the circumstances. You either believe the Bible or you don't.

CaringFriend2, I'm sorry you have had to justify yourself so many times over. Your letter was perfectly clear to begin with. You have been very kind in your responses.

Your post could be describing my husband. The descriptions fit very well. I opted for caring for my husband at home because he gets 1 on 1 care for less. Memory cares are too expensive, especially good ones like the one you described in your post. It is a personal decision and it seems your friend has made one that suited him the best.

Dementia in a loved one becomes a grieving process in slow motion. It is very difficult for those who knew the person when they were in their prime. Everyone is different about how they handle it and what would make them feel better. Let him take the lead. He has been a very good husband, but it's also OK for him to do things that will make him feel better. For me, with my mother, it helped when I accepted that her state of advanced dementia is a human condition that I have to accept. I had to lower my expectations about what I could get from her, and focus instead on what remains of the relationship, as it is right now, and what kind of a daughter I want to be. I want to 'have her back' and to continue to love her. Encourage him to get grief counseling from his religious advisers or from a grief counselor, and maybe even join a support group, and also to be active in activities that involve other people (during the pandemic, everything social is more difficult and the pandemic itself is a cause for grieving).

This is such an interesting thread and I thank you for presenting it.

It sounds like your friend is good at making his own choices and is finding his way through a difficult situation. I do not think it would be helpful, in fact it may be insulting, for you to suggest that he find a woman to hang out with. And as a woman, I would not welcome any advances from an older married gentleman.

I guess what I am suggesting here is to mind your own business. Continue to be a good, supportive and caring friend, as you have been. Many people would be envious of having such a kind friend as you.

Do sad for both.
I would suggest thst your friend check with meetings with same type people.

They have gathers fir everything now days, just like for people thst their spouse passed so I'm sure they have groups that meet to talk that are spouses with Alzheimers. Dementia, ect.

That would be a good place to start where he could meet and talk to people in the same boat as he is and make friends and see how they deal with things.

Always nice to have people to talk to, male and female that are going thru the same things you are.

Or, he could have her move back home and hire Caregivers or hire a Live In Caregiver.

Prayers

This is COMPLETELY up to him.
It sounds more like you are asking if he should seek "friends with benefits" since you expressly mentioned "... he would benefit from some simple female companionship..."
You can express you opinion and once you do that drop the subject unless he brings it up again.
I cared for my Husband for 12 years after a diagnosis of dementia and it never would have crossed my mind to seek male companionship. I went out with friends, most happen to be women that have spouses that have dementia. I hosted gatherings at my house and have had single men come to dinner but as friends.
You are correct that this is a deeply personal issue..
No matter what he does he will have people on both sides of the fence on this. There are 2 lines of thought.
You are married for better or worse, in sickness and in health. These are the vows you took.
and
I understand, he(or she) has a void to fill, has needs, still has years ahead of him (or her) and they want/need companionship.
In my opinion both lines of thought are valid and I understand them.

I truly think it depends on the strength of your marriage and how fulfilled in your marriage you are

So, express YOUR opinion and then drop the subject.

Lewy Body Dementia sufferers usually hang on for about 7 years, but some people have lived for 20 years with the disease. She is following the usual path of the disease.

It is heart-breaking to see a once vibrant person reduced to mere existence. It is so hard on those close to the sufferer - especially the spouse. During COVID, the hardest part is isolation. Your friend, the husband really needs friends right now. He needs interactions with others on a regular basis: socially distanced, outdoors, online... Helping him to connect, or reconnect, with family and friends (make more friends) is most likely his biggest need.

Starting new romantic relationships is very difficult during COVID, especially since he is already married and has strong beliefs about marital fidelity. When he has grieved the loss of relationship he has with his wife, he will move on, or not. per his choice.

Years ago, Sandra Day O'Connor's husband was in a memory care facility with Alzheimer's. He was at the stage of no longer knowing who she was in relation to himself. She shared the story of going to visit him one day and he was sitting next to another female resident and they were holding hands and smiling at each other. People always think that they have the right to judge and criticized her for being ok about it. She said that the disease had robbed her of her of the husband she knew and loved. With the class she always displayed, she said as he no longer knew her, she was pleased he was finding calming companionship with another.
Continue to be the supporting friend, with no judgements.

I took care of my mom right to the end to the point I had a feeding tube put in. Despite how incredibly advanced her Alzheimer's disease got she had her very rare moments of lucidity. Mom was on hospice for 2 years and never did she have to get any kind of psychotropics or narcotics, and she died peacefully--really peacefully--at age 90 after battling Alzheimer's for 15 years. Ironically Alzheimer's disease did not kill her--her feeding tube kept her needs. She had chronic kidney disease as a complication of her insulin-dependent diabetes. She had other chronic health issues. God killed my mom a little over a year ago, but I had nothing to do with it. It comes with some comfort mom would have died ANYWAY even if she were a walkie-talkie alert and oriented person from her other diseases. Diabetes is horrible, and that really did a number with her kidneys after years and years and years of it, and her hypertension was also a challenge to control. I kept mom's sugars very stable. Her A1C averaged 6.1 representing excellent control. Yes I used hospice like a home clinic for routine labs and to keep her routine medication reorded. She was only on insulin, Lopressor and multivitamin. Also lactulose for her bowel movements, and Periodex to swab her mouth after her oral care. Feeding tubes require strict oral care so they would not get aspiration pnemonia and her feeding tube required A LOT of care she never had any problem with it.

I kept mom walking as long as I could -- I took her to the park daily for five years to the point she needed a special walker which cost me $800 but it kept her walking for another year. She walked a quarter of a mile in the park and that made her happy. I took her to the mall when I could and wheeled her around. She would do better after that. That had to stop when she forgot how to get in and out of the car, which was very difficult. Mom was only bedridden for 2-1/2 months but even then I hoyer lifted her daily at least twice a day to her favorite chair in the living room. The only time she moaned was when I had to clean her and change her diapers. That was at least 5 times a day. Mom's skin was in perfect condition when she died.

It's been over a year and I still am trying to recover from her loss. However, mom is at a better place. I was her total life support for years and years.
GRIEF is the PRICE of love. You learn to adapt to death, but you NEVER get over it.

The hospice nurse figured she was so peaceful because of her familiar surroundings and she felt secure with around the clock love. I managed her behavior by walking her daily..it took the crazies out of her system. I kept her awake during the day and she slept all night, so I never had a problem with "sun downing". Exercise was the best medication ever.

Especially since the husband values marital fidelity, encouraging "dating" or a special female friend is not a great idea.

Other social contacts, hobbies, and volunteering would be better involvements. With social contact restrictions doe to the Pandemic, it will take more creativity to find opportunities for involvement, but it can be done. If he needs your help in finding contacts, you can do that.

Look online for church or community service projects, classes, support groups, DIY projects for donations and so on. Feeling useful and involved is a big part of a ppsitive mental attitude.

This is a deeply personal issue as you said . The one thing I’ve learned in my 73 years is none of us knows what we will do until we are in the actual place the one we are judging is in. And then the main lesson is not to judge or even opine but to just be there for them .

I don't mean to sound insensitive but "til death do us part" means just that, no loopholes, with the exception of adultery (Matthew 19:9). Personally I have found empathy talking to widowers. My wife is still living but the grieving process is very similar to what they have been through.