8 kids. Dads a hoarder. Found him on the floor- no food/watsr for four days so hes up the hospital 7days now. 6 of the kids went round and cleared all his hoard and made it into an 'acceptable house'. I feel this is wrong. I wanted to tell him straight away but my half sister told me not to. It was a danger to his health. Any advice? Hope that makes sense sorry am so angry about it all its hard to type. Thank you in advance
more info
I have tried to contact him repeatedly (he has a mobile) and am planning on telling him about the clear out. Sue told me a few days ago that I was not to tell him as he may discharge himself to come home. (I do not see that as a good enough reason as to not tell him) i feel so disloyal to my dad.
Will he be going to rehab after his hospitalization?
There has been no diagnosis of lacking mental capacity or personality disorders or dementia (a brain scan showed signs of dementia but this is not enough alone to diagnose and as I stated on a previous reply he has had dementia symptoms all his life nearly)
He has lived in his house as he does (well, until he went hosp.) for twenty years or more. (Worsening of hoarding coincides with lack of company in the house dad has always been a hoarder - as a child even)
He still runs a business, leads an extremerly active life (considering covid), all on his own. He was on the bus going shopping a few days before the event that led to him being on the floor in his bedroom for up to 4 days. He rarely has visitors (he does not permit most people entry). Hes 73.
We will have to wait and see what he needs.
I think your siblings did him a huge favor by cleaning out his unsafe house. At least now he can get in-home help, which he needs even if it's just a few days a week to make sure he's eating, bathing, taking meds, etc.
Telling him now serves no other purpose than to agitate him when he's in the hospital and may well sign himself out AMA if you tell him. When he arrives home, I suggest as many of his children as possible be there to help him accept that his house is now cleared out. He also needs mental health treatment for the hoarding.
(what does AMA mean?)
I hope we can all be there for him but 4/7 already stated they will not or may not be able to commit to doing so.
He has not accepted the help that we have sought out for him. (Going back, say 7years, we started the ball rolling, We have no power to force him as he is not lacking capacity to act as his own advocate.
No agency that has the authority to do so has declared actions be made on his behalf (as in hes capable of 'helping himself' sort of thing).
Please god he comes out 'back to normal', though, if he doesnt I will do all I ought to to ensure the best for his wellbeing.
The brain scan is not definitive and dementia has not been diagnosed. (Bear in mind the famous study of nuns that showed signs of dementia within the brain yet did not 'have' dementia).
Regardless of intent and actual deeds done the fact stands that he has not been informed.
He will have to be informed.
The earlier the better surely .
(im still trying to get though to him on the phone not wishing for it to be the first thing i talk to him about but given how he is on the call i will better gauge what his condition is and then will be able to judge whether or not his mental capacity has diminished ; dependent on his best interest I will tell him
or not - If he is "normal daddy" I will let him know:-)
The difference is that if you tell him now you will make him angry and afraid: he will learn that your evil siblings have stolen his treasures, and as you're angry about it on his behalf his reaction will be wholly, and worse than, negative.
If you wait until he gets home, he will see for himself that while some of his treasure is missing his house is now habitable. Possibly even sustainably habitable. Don't you want him to consider the advantages of what your siblings have done?
Why do you want to insert yourself into the middle of this drama by being the one to "tattle"? If you weren't on board with the clean-out and weren't on board with keeping it a secret then don't be the one who tells him and don't be the one who takes him back to his house (if that's what happens next). Your dad will be angry no matter what at everyone. You need boundaries for yourself so that you can stop being sucked into his circus. Do you live with him? Perhaps you have a co-dependent relationship. It would probably be helpful for you to see the hoarding therapist so you can know where the healthy boundaries are. I wish you much peace in your heart as you try to help your father in a productive way.
dementia diagnosis is not clear. Dad has had symptoms of dementia since he was 6 years old so this makes the diagnosis even harder. He suffered with delerium on arrival to hosp but he is not delerious anymore. My dad left me on a train when I was 7 thats how forgetful he is. Am waiting until dad is discharged for a diagnosis and care/action plan.
If your Dad went without water and food for 4 days there is a problem. He may have Dementia. He has been in the hospital for 7 days, I am pretty sure rehab will be suggested, if to only get his strength back.
While Dad is in rehab have him evaluated. If they say he now needs 24/7 care then your family has a decision to make. If he can afford it, may want to place him in an Assisted Living. If no money, Long term care on Medicaid or someone cares for him in his home or their home.
dementia diagnosis is not clear. Dad has had symptoms of dementia since he was 6 years old so this makes the diagnosis even harder. He suffered with delerium on arrival to hosp but he is not delerious anymore. My dad left me on a train when I was 7 thats how forgetful he is. Am waiting until dad is discharged for a diagnosis and care/action plan.
Having a mom who is a hoarder and not a terrible one--no major vermin infestation or rotting food--but she's sliding into that. YB had removed a piece of the dropped ceiling and I did see some evidence of mice.
She ASKED me, about 6 years ago, to please come clean and organize her apartment to be 'like your (my) house'.
The 'joy' ended within an hour when she realized that in order to create organized empty spaces out of piles of books, puzzles, newspapers and 4 curio cabinets jammed with 'stuff' there would have to be about a 50% reduction in her 'stuff'. She could not part with anything. Things of great value are snugged up against rotting plastic frogs bought at the dollar store. EVERYTHING is of value to her.
I lasted almost 2 days and went home, sobbing, with a massive migraine. She actually went out to the trash with her 'grabby stick' to try to retrieve the rotted plastic frog, which to this day is still in a place of honor. It's my reminder that there is no point in cleaning for her.
HOWEVER--as soon as she falls again, Sis and I have already planned an
'unasked for' cleaning. For safety safe, mostly, and to give her some room to move around. I'm embarassed for people to come visit her, the place reeks and is so messy. BUT it's HER stuff and dam&ed be the rest of us who don't 'like it'.
So--my guess is your dad is going to be furious and not the least bit grateful. Same as I expect of mom when this happens.
Hoarding is a disease that can be mild or severe. Mom's is mid-range, I'd guess. She does allow trash to go out, but only the night before trash day. And as she is incontinent, and won't let her soggy depends go out until Sunday night, it gets really ripe in her place. She cannot smell anything any more.
Unless a person WANTS to change, they won't. My DH saw me de junking (the Marie Kondo method) and he did his clothes and drawers and has kept them up for 7+ years. There's hope!
I know it is pointless, its so true dad has to be the one to help himself. As i said in other post like an addict.
Thing is dad doesnt meet the 'norm' (who does) but really never has done.so for his house to have old food etc not so unusual considering how he is.
He will eat anything. I really mean that. He eats Red meat that has gone green. (He was a post war baby and deprived of food - im not a psychologist but obvs. Had impact on him.( He has never had food poisoning) his constitution is A class.
Things he eats would kill most people.
Dad's done similar things. Nothing is to be wasted with dad. But he really does have everything. Classic motors out the front (6 motors I think all together). All tech stuff. He does'nt have newspapers and the like but loads of paperwork. About 100 phones and tablets that he cant hear ringing to find in piles of clothes. Thousands of clothes.
It is a large three bedroom house with front parkimg garden and back middle size garden.
He still runs a business though, For all his faults. I always say I could not manage doing everything my dad does (not just being dads little girl here) he is as strong as a bull. Has been and still is a sucessfull business owner. And few people Ive heard of let alone know have his constitution.
This is a good example of how "strong" (i dont have the vocabulary) and how independent my dad IS (hope its not 'was' just yet):
About 5 year ago he had a serious collision; he broke his back, leg, pelvis and other bones. When the doctor came in to tell dad what the diagnosis was he said "youve got the wrong person" he could not believe he had those ailments he felt fine. He was eating an indian takeaway along with an egg sandwich - at the same time- teo hours after admission. He was knocked out cold of course from all of this. Two hours later!
He had been on a motorbike with only a helmet on and gone head first through the front window of a transit van. He was out two days later being dad like nothing had happened.
While he was up the hosp. We cleared his house (nowhere near to how we've done it this time) so it was wheelchair suitaable (he was supposed to be using one but he didnt). we informed him we were doing it. We did'nt get rid of anything. He moaned a bit about not being able to find things after. But no biggie at all. He was informed though I think it makes such a difference.
wishing you all the best
Don't tell dad, he may not notice and actually be secretly grateful. What a wonderful task your siblings did for him.
Do you have a hoarding disorder yourself?
No I do not meet the dsm criteria for being a hoarder. The life buoy rings are my brothers he is a hoarder theyve been there ten years.he wont get rid of them. Like father like son lol.
Please do not make this a negative thing. Be happy about it, even if you have to fake it.
I would be telling him how wonderful that items that just took up space and created confusion have been dealt with and how lovely that he can be in an environment that will help him focus on getting better and having more fun.
I think that you can help him see the good in this.
I do not agree with going behind our parents back and doing things but, I have tried to help my mom and it was a waste of 6 weeks of my life and now she lives in a house that is dangerous and it is embarrassing for her, meaning it impacts her social life. I promise you that I would be there clearing crap out the moment she gets hospitalized, because I know that it is beyond her ability to even see where to start. I think it is that way in many hording cases.
Just organizing the stuff would make a HUGE difference but, you can not even touch garbage without drama.
Maybe how they did it was not okay but, it was meant for good. Direct dad to see the benefits of having stuff gone. Don't make a big issue out of it and maybe he won't either.
Im not certain on dads diagnosis so will have to wait and see whether or not he is safe on his own I will definatley know upon his leaving hosp. Until then its a waiting game. :-)
Your father's children were trying to do a good thing for him, whether you agree with their decision and methodology or not. If you agitate him on purpose right now, you're trying to do a bad thing for him and it won't help him in any way, shape or form.
When he gets home from the hospital, I suggest you celebrate the nice condition of his home and commend the family for working so hard to help him restore safety and order to his life. Come to terms with and accept the fact that he does have dementia, whether the diagnosis or lack of one meets your specifications or not, and realize he should no longer be living alone. THAT is the main issue to focus on moving forward, not whether his children insulted him by cleaning up his hoarded home. He was clearly not safe living in those conditions, let's face it, and is lucky to be alive.
I wrote as I thought (in my question) So Shoot me.
There are no good guys. I do not think the deed horrible. It is his property we have no right to have cleared it (it was not legally* necessary)(nor was it recommended by his care team / they said it would need a "bit of de cluttering" so no excuse as to not telling him apart from "it may distress him". If it may, then it will, and he has to eventually find out.
He should know of matters directly concerning him is my main premise here.
He is not lacking capacity even if he does have dementia (please god hes best as can be)
He is master of his own ship, regardless of who wants to take the wheel and steer in a 'better' way.
We have no idea how dad will react.
Please refrain from diagnosing.No doctor has confirmed dementia. (Though this is not even confirmed as doctors words come to me second hand so amount to hearsay)
Fairs fair. To accept he has dementia is to accept he is a hoarder. And therefor to act accordingly so as not to endanger his wellbeing (the deed is potentially hazardous to his wellbeing as stated by hoarding specialists.)
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(AMA (thanks) by the very premise they have not discharged him he is evidently not fit for discharge (but this could also be due to the fact that necessary parties required for his diagnosis/treatment plan are not available (ie. he could be 'physically' fit for discharge but not tick all the boxes required to meet discharge criteria. Ive experienced this with mum. I am not certain as no contact with hosp.)
Ive no idea how dad will take it. It may not agitate him at all. I assume how he would react based on my understanding of him; that alone is not enough to be certain of how he will react. He must be told about it before he can react. He must be told 'whatever the weather'. If its going to rain better he has an umbrella. If hes going to have a bad turn when informed its better hes in a place designed to help him with that. None of us kids are qualified in any matters relating to welfare or healthcare (if theyre not one and the same ...?)