I think that there is another thread where this is already being discussed ad nauseum. I would like to point out that hospice care is end of life care, so almost everyone in hospice care dies. And also that ativan and morphine are meant to be administered to relieve suffering in the final days and hours, so it is logical to assume that most people who receive this "cocktail will indeed die.
A lethal dose of morphine is about 200mg. Your patient is not getting anywhere near that amount. Do the math. Plus it only lasts about 4 hours. Roxanol comes in two strengths: 10mg/5ml and 100mg/5ml. Hospice will start you with 1ml of the lower strength= 2mg. So if Grandma got one or two doses and died, it wasn 't the morphine. If she got 6 doses in one day, and died, it wasn't the morphine. Same for Ativan---the dose is not lethal.
My mom is not yet on Hospice care. she has CHF, dementia, aphasia and recurring pleural effusions. We were advised by the pulmonologist that tapping her chest again is not advisable. Do I want to get Hospice involved when they discover that her chest has filled up again? Hell, yes! I hope and pray that we can prevent my mother dying while gasping for breath, feeling as though she's drowning.
My husband had dementia for ten years. When he was clearly in the final stage I brought hospice in. Since we were at home I controlled all the meds. He was not in physical pain so I did not use the morphine. But, alas, he died anyway. He did not die from anything hospice did. He died because he had a terminal condition and it was at its end.
My mother went on hospice care in a nursing home, after her hip broke. She had a lot of pain but could not take morphine (based on past experience) and they found other combinations of drugs to help with the pain. She was 93 when that happened. She'll be 96 soon. After about 3 months she got off hospice because she no longer qualified. She had seemed to be at death's door, but she fooled us! It wasn't her time to die. She didn't.
My daughter works in an AL. A gentleman who had been there a few years was liked by staff and fellow residents alike. He was pleasant and cheerful and cooperative. He cracked jokes. He flirted a little. So my daughter was bummed when he rapidly declined. It was especially hard to see him in so much pain. She was relieved when one of the man's son asked for hospice to be brought in. But then another son, who visited less often but was also involved in his father's life, said he wasn't sure it was time, and there was a delay in giving the order. Meanwhile the father suffered great pain. Of course staff NEVER interfere with family decisions, but there was a great collective sigh of relief when hospice came in and administered sufficient morphine to get him comfortable. For many of the staff it is not just a job. They get very attached to long-term residents. My daughter comes home sad when someone dies, but she is accepting of that. You can't work in geriatrics and not deal with death. But seeing someone in excruciating pain and not having adequate means to relieve it is worse for her. We all are going to die. I think we all hope for minimal suffering as that happens.
My dad started on a half a syringe just for pain relief. He was eating and talking. Then they upped it to a full syringe every for hrs.he was so drugged up.couldnt talk no more his eyes just started at cealing.the caregiver kept kickingbus out of room not sure why but after a few hrs he was like in a coma and even then she gave him another full syringe.he died on x mas.
Yes, my loved one was on a morphine and Ativan cocktail in the last 14 hours of his life and thank goodness for that, after dealing with 14 hours of at-home hospice with NO pain relief and sitting through his screaming in both pain and terminal restlessness for hours before I could get a hospice nurse out to the house.
He was dying from cancer. The morphine didn't hasten it or cause it. Like the others have mentioned, if your loved one was on hospice service, your loved one was dying. That's how you qualify for hospice.
I will thank our hospice service each and every day for taking over and moving him to an actual hospice facility after that disastrous 14 hours of at-home hospice. He was bathed, clean and comfortable for his last 14 hours. Making it possible to speak, say goodbye and know he was without the pain and agitation from terminal restlessness. I will never call that treatment "deadly" or imply that it wasn't "care".
My mother in law is currently on at-home hospice, and she will also be allowed whatever she needs to make her comfortable, whatever it may be and whatever time that may be needed.
I hope, when my time comes, if I am lying in hospice in pain and suffering, that some kindly person helps me off into death without some rabid anti-choicer trying to get in between me and the needle.
I don't CARE what you think about your god deciding these things, you don't get to impose your religious beliefs on me.
PEOPLE GO INTO HOSPICE CARE BECAUSE THEY ARE EXPECTED TO DIE. Some die with in days, some with in months or even years, a few graduate. Anyone who wants to can resume treatment (or their POA can order it. Why the heck are people surprised when someone dies under hospice care?
I'll have you all know that euthanasia is illegal in every state. If you and/or someone else imposes death in any way, for any reason ("to relieve suffering" "they were going to die any way"), it is an illegal, punishable crime.
I find it interesting that people can make statements here, basically admitting to imposing death on their loved one, and that's allowed, praised and accepted. But if I make a statement pointing out the obvious, that this is murder and you are a killer (because you killed someone), my comment is removed.
Prolife, please note that the comfort meds given by Hospice is NOT euthanasia. I realize that is what you want to believe, and that is your choice. Make sure your own family knows you want no part of Hospice. Put that into writing for them, have it notarized.
Prolife, I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind but I want you to understand the process from a clinical perspective. (I assume you're not a nurse.)
I was a post operative nurse for 12 years. My job was to relieve the new surgical patients' pain. I gave them Morphine 5, 10, or 15 mg. every 4 hours (depending on their weight). It relieved their pain with no untoward effects. If they were anxious before or after surgery, I was able to give them Ativan 1 or 2 mg. They felt much more calm and relaxed after receiving it. There's nothing wrong with this situation, is there? Seems pretty normal and routine.
Now, let's talk about a dying patient. They also can have pain like the surgical patient. I, as a part time hospice nurse, medicate my dying patient with the same medicines AT THE SAME DOSAGES as my surgical patient. They both have pain and anxiety and they are both medicated for it. Neither one die FROM the medication.
You must be under the false belief that huge doses are given to the dying and that's WHY they die. WRONG! They die because a disease has taken their life.
Some times people who suffer chronic pain have built up a tolerance to the dosage of their pain medication and they need a little more to ease the pain. That happens when you have taken narcotics for a prolonged amount of time. It's called tolerance.
Morphine is compatable with Ativan. One is for pain, one is for anxiety. They don't have any negative interactions when given together.
So, why can I medicate the post op patient and keep him comfortable after surgery but I can't do the same with the hospice patient receiving the same amount of drugs?
You are trying to demonstrate cause and effect (give morphine=killing patient) but you aren't taking into account that the dying person's body is in shutdown mode which will result in death, with or without medications.
Do you know that nurses in the hospitals use the same stuff when their patients are dying but nobody ever says a thing about a hospital nurse giving morphine to a dying patient. I gave the same meds in the hospital with my dying patients that I did when I cared for the post op patients, as I do with my hospice patients.
Would you want to be screaming in pain as you die? I've seen it and treated it and the family was so appreciative that their loved one didn't use their last breath screaming in pain or anxiety.
Another thing, not everyone receives Morphine and Ativan. I've done calls for extended nausea. Then we switch to an anti-emetic. NO Morphine OR Ativan given at all. We focus on why the patient is uncomfortable and try to treat it to make them more comfortable.
That's the whole point of hospice, to make them comfortable with their terminal illness.
Prolife, you are so obviously reading things that are not there in what people have written, that I am starting to worry about your lack of reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
Only ONE person in this thread said they thought their loved one was killed by medical drugs. What other people have written is that their dying loved ones were given drugs to alleviate suffering, AND that they also died while in hospice. You seem to be making this huge leap in thinking that "alleviating suffering" and "death" are the same thing. They have NOT said the drugs CAUSED their loved ones' deaths.
But you are so determined to see murder where there is none, that you are not even reading people's comments fully.
People go to hospice to die. The compassionate provision of drugs is to help them not suffer needlessly WHILE their bodies are in the process of dying naturally. The drugs treat the SYMPTOMS of dying in order to make natural death less uncomfortable.
I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.
If I take a Midol, I am not shortening or putting a stop to my natural menstrual period. Rather, I am treating the symptoms of my period. The lining of my uterus is still being shed.
If I take an Advil because my back is out, it does not put my spinal column back into place. It just stops my back from hurting for a little while. But my back is still out, regardless of whether it hurts or not.
Prolife, the Catholic church advocates hospice care to include any medications to keep the patient comfortable and pain free. Please take your ignorant philosophies to a website that welcomes ignoramus prolifers.
I watched my brother die from a long battle with cancer and wished there was something I could have done to end his pain. I watched my father lie in the hospital in pain telling everyone "He was going home soon" which he meant that he was going to heaven. The hospital said they needed the bed and put him out and nothing for the pain, and he passed in the hallway of a nursing home. I am caregiver for my mother and when it comes time when my mother has inconsolable pain, I pray that someone will see her need and take away her pain, and if I am condemned to hell for taking away her pain; so be it. If my mother passed as a result, I would thank them for letting her go in peace; and I will sleep at night knowing I did the right thing.
Has anyone on here heard of the insane "Macdonalds triple cheeseburger and double fries cocktail" that has contributed to high cholesterol and killed numerous loved ones? Shall we start a conspiracy thread about that?
Then there's the" Burger King Double Whopper with fries" cocktail.
Scary stuff people! The subliminal messages in the ads "buy us", "eat us"........." stuff your face with us." Scary. Close your eyes, plug your ears boys and girls.
Yeah it takes pain away except my dad wzs told its for pain only not death.and when they uped it to 1 mg. After .05 witch he could function on.he was out of it.his care giver was a drunk and gave him his doses early and also when he was allready asleep also she forced fed him he choked.then she stole his cash and he died.i told senior dervices my conserns.nothing done.
Yeah it takes pain away except my dad wzs told its for pain only not death.and when they uped it to 1 mg. After .05 witch he could function on.he was out of it.his care giver was a drunk and gave him his doses early and also when he was allready asleep also she forced fed him he choked.then she stole his cash and he died.i told senior dervices my conserns.nothing done.
And where were you Mary, while all this was taking place? A drunk caregiver that robbed his cash, gave meds early, force fed a sleeping patient....wow. Was no one observing what was going on with him?
FYI, 1 mg. of Morphine wouldn't be enough to even be felt, let alone kill anyone. I normally give between 5-15 mg. every 4 hours with my hospice patients.
My 31 yr old daughter was on Hospice they were giving her morphine 300 mg every 4 hr for pain, Refused to give antibiotics or tylenol for 103 fever. We threatened to call an attorney because she was showing signs of morphine overdose. within 15 min antibiotics was given tylenol brought the fever down. 3yrs later she's still alive and Hospice is no longer allowed around her...
Mamacat, oh dear, if your daughter was given 300mg every 4 hours, she would have died right after the first 300mg was given. No doctor nor a nurse would EVER give that deadly high dosage. Morphine is highly regulated, thus that amount of morphine used would have raised many red flags.
Curious, why did you place your daughter on Hospice, you mentioned she was in pain? It is not unusual for a patient to graduated from Hospice to continue to live more months or even years.
Chances are the dosage was more like 5mg to 15 mg. The amount is no different than what is given to hospital patients who have had surgery. I have had 2 major surgeries where I was given a morphine pump for the pain.
Make sure your daughter has a legal document stating that she refuses to have Hospice, and refuses to have Morphine should she need surgery. Make sure it is signed, dated, and Notarized. And have one drawn up for yourself.
Mamacat, I'm sorry your daughter was sick. You say she is alive 3 YEARS later? Sounds like her doctor misdiagnosed her having a terminal illness and the length of time she had left to live. (In order to enter hospice, the patient is terminal and has around 6 months to live.)
I believe you have your mg. strength wrong on the Morphine. There is no way someone could be alive after receiving a 300 mg. dose. Maybe she was on 30mg.? Even that is a very large dose UNLESS she had been taking Morphine for a long time and had built up a tolerance to it.
Usually antibiotics would not be given because it would be considered a "lifesaving" measure (hospice is for the dying) but Tylenol definitely could be given for the patients comfort.
I would like to point out that hospice care is end of life care, so almost everyone in hospice care dies. And also that ativan and morphine are meant to be administered to relieve suffering in the final days and hours, so it is logical to assume that most people who receive this "cocktail will indeed die.
With or without the "cocktail" my lived ones were going to die.
The "cocktail" helped to make the end more manageable..
Roxanol comes in two strengths: 10mg/5ml and 100mg/5ml. Hospice will start you with 1ml of the lower strength= 2mg.
So if Grandma got one or two doses and died, it wasn 't the morphine.
If she got 6 doses in one day, and died, it wasn't the morphine.
Same for Ativan---the dose is not lethal.
My mother went on hospice care in a nursing home, after her hip broke. She had a lot of pain but could not take morphine (based on past experience) and they found other combinations of drugs to help with the pain. She was 93 when that happened. She'll be 96 soon. After about 3 months she got off hospice because she no longer qualified. She had seemed to be at death's door, but she fooled us! It wasn't her time to die. She didn't.
My daughter works in an AL. A gentleman who had been there a few years was liked by staff and fellow residents alike. He was pleasant and cheerful and cooperative. He cracked jokes. He flirted a little. So my daughter was bummed when he rapidly declined. It was especially hard to see him in so much pain. She was relieved when one of the man's son asked for hospice to be brought in. But then another son, who visited less often but was also involved in his father's life, said he wasn't sure it was time, and there was a delay in giving the order. Meanwhile the father suffered great pain. Of course staff NEVER interfere with family decisions, but there was a great collective sigh of relief when hospice came in and administered sufficient morphine to get him comfortable. For many of the staff it is not just a job. They get very attached to long-term residents. My daughter comes home sad when someone dies, but she is accepting of that. You can't work in geriatrics and not deal with death. But seeing someone in excruciating pain and not having adequate means to relieve it is worse for her. We all are going to die. I think we all hope for minimal suffering as that happens.
He was dying from cancer. The morphine didn't hasten it or cause it. Like the others have mentioned, if your loved one was on hospice service, your loved one was dying. That's how you qualify for hospice.
I will thank our hospice service each and every day for taking over and moving him to an actual hospice facility after that disastrous 14 hours of at-home hospice. He was bathed, clean and comfortable for his last 14 hours. Making it possible to speak, say goodbye and know he was without the pain and agitation from terminal restlessness. I will never call that treatment "deadly" or imply that it wasn't "care".
My mother in law is currently on at-home hospice, and she will also be allowed whatever she needs to make her comfortable, whatever it may be and whatever time that may be needed.
Let those of us who think our parents, spouses, siblings and children deserve a peaceful and fear-free death have hospice services if we want them.
I don't CARE what you think about your god deciding these things, you don't get to impose your religious beliefs on me.
I find it interesting that people can make statements here, basically admitting to imposing death on their loved one, and that's allowed, praised and accepted. But if I make a statement pointing out the obvious, that this is murder and you are a killer (because you killed someone), my comment is removed.
I'm sure I'm not going to change your mind but I want you to understand the process from a clinical perspective. (I assume you're not a nurse.)
I was a post operative nurse for 12 years. My job was to relieve the new surgical patients' pain. I gave them Morphine 5, 10, or 15 mg. every 4 hours (depending on their weight). It relieved their pain with no untoward effects. If they were anxious before or after surgery, I was able to give them Ativan 1 or 2 mg. They felt much more calm and relaxed after receiving it. There's nothing wrong with this situation, is there? Seems pretty normal and routine.
Now, let's talk about a dying patient. They also can have pain like the surgical patient. I, as a part time hospice nurse, medicate my dying patient with the same medicines AT THE SAME DOSAGES as my surgical patient. They both have pain and anxiety and they are both medicated for it. Neither one die FROM the medication.
You must be under the false belief that huge doses are given to the dying and that's WHY they die. WRONG! They die because a disease has taken their life.
Some times people who suffer chronic pain have built up a tolerance to the dosage of their pain medication and they need a little more to ease the pain. That happens when you have taken narcotics for a prolonged amount of time. It's called tolerance.
Morphine is compatable with Ativan. One is for pain, one is for anxiety. They don't have any negative interactions when given together.
So, why can I medicate the post op patient and keep him comfortable after surgery but I can't do the same with the hospice patient receiving the same amount of drugs?
You are trying to demonstrate cause and effect (give morphine=killing patient) but you aren't taking into account that the dying person's body is in shutdown mode which will result in death, with or without medications.
Do you know that nurses in the hospitals use the same stuff when their patients are dying but nobody ever says a thing about a hospital nurse giving morphine to a dying patient. I gave the same meds in the hospital with my dying patients that I did when I cared for the post op patients, as I do with my hospice patients.
Would you want to be screaming in pain as you die? I've seen it and treated it and the family was so appreciative that their loved one didn't use their last breath screaming in pain or anxiety.
Another thing, not everyone receives Morphine and Ativan. I've done calls for extended nausea. Then we switch to an anti-emetic. NO Morphine OR Ativan given at all. We focus on why the patient is uncomfortable and try to treat it to make them more comfortable.
That's the whole point of hospice, to make them comfortable with their terminal illness.
Only ONE person in this thread said they thought their loved one was killed by medical drugs. What other people have written is that their dying loved ones were given drugs to alleviate suffering, AND that they also died while in hospice. You seem to be making this huge leap in thinking that "alleviating suffering" and "death" are the same thing. They have NOT said the drugs CAUSED their loved ones' deaths.
But you are so determined to see murder where there is none, that you are not even reading people's comments fully.
People go to hospice to die. The compassionate provision of drugs is to help them not suffer needlessly WHILE their bodies are in the process of dying naturally. The drugs treat the SYMPTOMS of dying in order to make natural death less uncomfortable.
I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.
If I take a Midol, I am not shortening or putting a stop to my natural menstrual period. Rather, I am treating the symptoms of my period. The lining of my uterus is still being shed.
If I take an Advil because my back is out, it does not put my spinal column back into place. It just stops my back from hurting for a little while. But my back is still out, regardless of whether it hurts or not.
That's how symptom-treating drugs work.
Science is useful. May I suggest learning some?
You clearly had a bad hospice team. It is NOT the norm to ask family membets to leave. I hope you reported this. If not, DO IT NOW!!!
I doubt that this poster really wanted answers-only to stir up **it,
just like the other insane anti-hospice thread.
Some have called them trolls.
Then there's the" Burger King Double Whopper with fries" cocktail.
Scary stuff people! The subliminal messages in the ads "buy us", "eat us"........." stuff your face with us." Scary. Close your eyes, plug your ears boys and girls.
Sorry,............couldn't resist.
A drunk caregiver that robbed his cash, gave meds early, force fed a sleeping patient....wow. Was no one observing what was going on with him?
FYI,
1 mg. of Morphine wouldn't be enough to even be felt, let alone kill anyone. I normally give between 5-15 mg. every 4 hours with my hospice patients.
Curious, why did you place your daughter on Hospice, you mentioned she was in pain? It is not unusual for a patient to graduated from Hospice to continue to live more months or even years.
Chances are the dosage was more like 5mg to 15 mg. The amount is no different than what is given to hospital patients who have had surgery. I have had 2 major surgeries where I was given a morphine pump for the pain.
Make sure your daughter has a legal document stating that she refuses to have Hospice, and refuses to have Morphine should she need surgery. Make sure it is signed, dated, and Notarized. And have one drawn up for yourself.
I'm sorry your daughter was sick. You say she is alive 3 YEARS later? Sounds like her doctor misdiagnosed her having a terminal illness and the length of time she had left to live. (In order to enter hospice, the patient is terminal and has around 6 months to live.)
I believe you have your mg. strength wrong on the Morphine. There is no way someone could be alive after receiving a 300 mg. dose. Maybe she was on 30mg.? Even that is a very large dose UNLESS she had been taking
Morphine for a long time and had built up a tolerance to it.
Usually antibiotics would not be given because it would be considered a "lifesaving" measure (hospice is for the dying) but Tylenol definitely could be given for the patients comfort.
I'm glad that she survived.