Always is when I go away for the weekend with my family...
You can guarantee when I come back he's "been ill". EVERY TIME. So I phoned him - first sentence "I've been ill". Like its my fault because I went away!
STILL not taking all his medication that the GP gave him so I offer ZERO sympathy. Basically, wants me to tell him how he can feel better - "Take the meds the GP has given you Dad, if that fails then go an see you're GP but I'm not a doctor."
His words - "I desperately need you to visit the weekend." "I've got no food in the house" (Brother lives literally 5 mins drive from him - I live 35-40 mins. Brother is probably laying low). Anyway, he knows my car is in the garage so I'm struggling for transport and he knows my wife works weekends so may need our other car. So I tell him I can't promise. Anyone would have thought I'd told him I'd murdered the family next door.
Apparently, I'm "letting him down" and "need to arrange something", and "wife needs to understand". Of course the standby offer of home delivery groceries is not good enough - he doesn't want to spend the £30 minimum - they have to be hand delivered by me!
I've tried setting boundaries, I've said no can do, I've tried ignoring, I've tried just not doing. Give him his due he's relentless in his quest to get me to do what he wants!
DesertGrl53;
Good post, nice analogies, suggestions, etc.
When I got to your version of the Serenity prayed, it reminded me that I wanted to look up the alternate version that my office mate from years ago had on the cubicle wall...
Lord,
Grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those
people I had to kill because they p*ssed me off!!!
That office mate was, by the way, so Christian that she wanted to be a nun. Ohhh-kay then... ;-)
Your doing good not telling him your whereabouts, or when you will be visiting. When he asks. "We'll play it by ear". What does that mean? It means we will see when the time comes. Lol.
If he likes your grocery store. Sorry pop grocery store doesnt have it. Shelves were bare. Needs a restock. Cant control whats on the shelves. Maybe next time.
You are now harder to pin down than jello! If hes making things a command performance you go mia. Missing in action. Couldnt be reached. What happened? Phone was on charge. If he settles down then he gets your attention. If he acts up you go scarce. You need your time too. Good luck.
Keep up the good work.
Wouldn’t it be interesting to do a ‘reality television program’ on senior citizens? Your dad and my mom could in the cast of the main characters in the show! Would be hysterical!
It is hard having a parent live in our home. Was hard when I was going back and forth from my house to hers before that as well.
I think if your dad moved in with you we would see headlines in the newspaper or see a report on the news about it! One of you would kill the other one! Haha, hope you know I am kidding.
Another alternative, you’d be in a mental institution! Alone and divorced because he isn’t nice to your wife or children. You know I am joking.
I am grateful that my mom is not nasty to my husband. My husband is so calm, has a very even keel. Not much gets him rattled. He is very easy going with my mom. He has been my calming force at times. A hug from him is precious to me.
You mentioned your son’s behavior, exactly, he’s a teenager! It’s almost their rite of passage or their job to test us, haha. They wouldn’t be kids if they didn’t try! They all do. People who say they have perfect kids are lying!
My husband has always dressed very well, from the time we dated. I was the free spirit in t-shirts, halter tops, blue jeans, shorts and sundresses when we met.
I dressed up to go somewhere special but otherwise I didn’t. I was so active cycling on my bicycle or out and about with friends. He was active, he was a track runner but when not exercising he was always dressed in nice clothes. He loves dressing nicely. Of course I dressed professionally at work.
My daughters hated if my husband took them shopping. They preferred when I took them. He wanted them dressed nicely even if they were just hanging out with friends. They were like me, extremely active and wanted to be comfortable. The first time he saw the girls in the ‘ripped up jeans’ look, he looked at me and said, “We paid money for that!” Was so funny. I said, yes and if that is all we have to worry about, so what? He realized they had their own taste. He shook it off and agreed.
I remember reading about a survey of middle aged people who were asked if they would marry again and have kids again. The answer surprised me, a substantial amount said if they had to do it over again they would remain single!
Most of us learn to deal with our kids, crying babies through the teen years. That’s our kids, somehow it seems like a bigger challenge to deal with our parents!
But he's talking out of his arse, isn't he? He is in fact plain wrong.
1. No he wouldn't rather be dead than anything. Wait and see what happens when there actually is a risk of his dying. The sudden change of heart can be quite dramatic.
2. What does "put away" mean?
3. What does he mean by "a home"?
He is talking about the pathetic scenario of the poor unloved misunderstood old boy being wheeled into a common room and left to drivel in front of the t.v. in a rundown, lino-floored borstal that smells of wee and cabbage. Who wouldn't dread that? But it's nonsense.
I've suggested before that you GO to a handful of retirement homes in his area and see for yourself. I've also pointed out that if you do that, and you find a good one that you like the look of, the people who run it will be much better than you are about handling admissions for stubborn old men. (Except I wouldn't say stubborn. I'd say fearful, and needlessly fearful at that).
You can leave him happy being miserable, or you can do something about it. But don't say it wouldn't work when the actual truth is that you haven't the time or the inclination to make it work.
He said the other week that he'd rather be dead than be "put away in a home". Obviously, its not factual and some of them are nice - he would be happier.
Nothing is going to change his mind ever. As I've said before, he does like to know everyone is running around for him, and I'm pretty sure hes not happy unless things are difficult for him too. Something to moan about.
I have made some changes but know it needs to be more. I've averted the crisis I think but hes pushing back massively at the moment. I lay something down, he escalates it.
Some of the things I've done I've followed his lead and manipulated him the way he does me. He always manages to get his way by lying and witholding information. So I do the same now.
I've got a teenage son who's the same. Give an inch take a mile. Dad is way worse at the moment I must say.
Last few weeks I've totally cut him out from whats going on in my life. I don't tell him. He doesn't care anyway - anything I say in mitigation is not as important as him. All it does is give him info to use to come up a scam as to why I can and should visit anyway. (e.g. I've got no car, wife is working - his answer walk to supermarket, then drive over later).
I'm realising its pointless making excuses either. He asks now EVERY time. Are you visiting saturday or sunday? I always say "I'll let you know" even if I probably will. Otherwise it gets "set in stone". Then I'll ring him sunday evening when its too late for him to badger me.
He tries to get me to ring saturday am - but I know that means he wants to hear why I can't visit which gives him a chance to decide if its valid (never is) and then plan another scam to get me there. I always forget to ring saturday am now ;-)
Hes even tried to scam that - I need to phone saturday am because brother might visit and if I can't get his shopping sunday then he might be able to ask brother (but it wont be ideal because the one supermarket he likes is near my house!) to get some shopping. on the saturday.
I know damn well brother gets shopping for him on saturday anyway then he expects me to do same on sunday.
Of course, my brothers GF makes things worse. She visits 2/3 times a week sometimes then decides hes annoying her (I can see that) then lays low and doesnt visit for weeks. Then hes got used to it and wants someone else to fill in.
You suggested in a recent post, that nobody likes to argue with their parents.... as kind of an explanation for why it is so hard to say no to him... but there's really a lot more to it than that, I suspect. Your dad has been training you, grooming you, shaping you, to comply with his wishes for a lifetime. You have been "shaped" to behave in certain ways, almost to the point where you CAN'T behave otherwise without severe mental and emotional anguish, almost like an addiction. Doing what your dad wants, making him happy, makes YOU happy. Making him unhappy makes you really unhappy - internally, because it's how the "game" has always been played, and you're familiar with the "rules" - but also externally, because he pushes all the buttons and knows how to make you miserable! Double whammy, can't win!
I learned that an abused spouse who wants out typically makes at least seven attempts to leave their abuser before finally breaking free. But you're working on it! Good for you, for making baby steps to do things in a different way, to work toward liberty. It won't happen in a day; don't expect it to. Most people who quit smoking do it gradually, as do people who lose weight. It's an addiction, expect it to take time, don't get discouraged. Keep coming here to vent, and incorporate some of the strategies or exercises suggested here.
Set yourself some reasonable, manageable goals and celebrate them. Determine to say NO one time this week - and don't back down! Then try it maybe twice the following week and every week for a month. Then try saying no three times a week for a month. Celebrate little victories; take your wife out to dinner or a movie. Or a burger and a shake, whatever feels like victory to you!
Rome wasn't built in a day and you can't tear it down in a day either. But you can eat an elephant one bite at a time, right? Baby steps. As long as they're steps in the right direction you should get to where you want to go.
Disclaimer: i am not a psychologist. Just an old woman with some suggestions. I've trained dogs. This method of behavior modification is called successive approximation with positive reinforcement. You could train a cat to ride a horse this way, so it stands to reason it could help you if you try it.
Guten lucken! 👍
*If you don't change things, nothing will change.
*What you've got is what you get.
*God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change (another person's behavior/ beliefs/ attitudes/ habits, etc); the courage to change the things I can (my own behavior, beliefs, attitudes, habits, etc.), and the wisdom to know the difference!
* Lord, help me to remember that I did not break this person and I can't fix him. He is in Your hands, as am I. I can do nothing without You, dear God. Guide me and give me good judgment in my relationship and dealings with my Dad. Help me to honor him as my father; to cherish and protect my wife; to respect myself and my family; and to do all in a way to bring You glory, dear Lord I pray. Amen.
They set traps for us and we foolishly have allowed ourselves to fall in, then we excuse our behavior. It’s true. You know it and I know it.
I see a lot of my emotions in you. You just said that no one likes to argue with their parents, did you not? Oh my gosh, I have used that excuse too! Because I get stuck in thinking that I am being disrespectful or thinking she will make it harder on me if I don’t give her what she wants. Do you know what my therapist said to me once, after I pulled that excuse on him, he said, “So, have the argument and resolve things! It’s not the argument that is bad, it is not resolving a situation.” He put it on me. At first I was upset hearing that but he is absolutely right!
He was right about lots of things, but he was also fair and did show compassion. He was an older man, mid 60’s, a father and grandfather as well. He had served in the military and had lots of life experiences of which he shared that were similar to mine, one being that he and his wife cared for his wife’s mom. I was definitely with the right therapist for me. He preached boundaries very much like Barb, which is why I respect Barb’s insight. He said to me, “Your homework for the weekend is to take a break.” Just like what Barb told you.
He would tell me that I could question or debate what he said. Every once in awhile he would hear something I said and would respond with, “You get a free pass for that situation.” It was rare when he said that but I appreciated it.
It’s a cycle. We have to break the cycle. We can’t even see clearly because we are still in the middle of the cycle. It takes stepping outside of the circle that we have created to see how destructive it is.
Sort of like ex boyfriend that wasn’t so great! He tried to convince me I was wrong whenever I confronted him about his behavior.
I even started to question myself or try to ‘fix’ them. I couldn’t fix him. No one has the power to fix someone else! We can suggest things but if they are not willing to compromise then it’s time for us to consider alternative solutions.
Geeeeez, this guy was a jerk and I wouldn’t admit that. Once I finally ended the relationship and looked back, I was so glad I wasn’t with him anymore. By ending that relationship I was free to open the door up for new, healthy relationships and I met the great guy that I am married to.
Things don’t happen overnight but we are long overdue in handling our dilemma.
I am still feeling that Barb had the absolute best advice on this forum awhile back when she said to take a break from your dad. I know you take trips and you and family certainly deserve them. That’s great. But I am talking about to take a break when you are not on your trip. Just forcing yourself to say no to him. Kind of like ripping a bandage off or even small steps if that’s all you can do. Let’s you and I set a challenge for each other. Maybe others can set up a healthy competition for us to follow! Haha. I will cheer you on and you do the same for me. Deal?
If I could take a two week vacation from my mom I certainly would. You don’t have your dad living with you. I am not so lucky. My mom lives with us. Still trying to sort my own stuff out, I admit that, so maybe I am not as qualified to speak with you about some things. I need to sweep my own front porch before I can tell you to sweep yours. But I can speak my my perspective which is that I am struggling with releasing myself from burdens as well. So I get all of the emotions involved.
Anyway, you have more freedom than I do. You and your wife have a truce but let’s be honest, your wife and my husband are getting the short end of the stick! Not fair to them. We have to find a way to show our commitment to our spouses more than our parents. Do you agree?
https://www.agingcare.com/discussions/my-whine-moment-today-168013.htm?orderby=recent
https://www.agingcare.com/discussions/the-caregiver-dysfunctional-families-149068.htm?orderby=recent
And there's even a joke thread to keep us sane with a few chuckles a day.
https://www.agingcare.com/discussions/caregiver-jokes-152323.htm?orderby=recent
He was always "adamant" that he wouldn't do x, pay for y. Not doing it! No! Shan't! He would then complain for days or weeks about being under pressure to do same, and the cruelty and wickedness and unreason of those applying the pressure - "this is doing my head in!" He would then yield, and be in a vile temper about it for the rest of the year, and treasure the grudge for all time; but would he ever state his reasons and say a simple no? No. It drove me POTTY!
Also, to underline the key point: the people applying the pressure believed CORRECTLY that if they continued to whine they would get the desired result. And whose fault was that?
https://greatist.com/live/divorcing-parent
Yes, he's your dad. But he is toxic, bad for your mental health and behaves like a jerk to the faces of the people you love best, and more importantly, to whom you owe support-- your wife and kids.
Frankly I wouldn't let this guy around my children for fear of the damage he'd do. He's not a nice person. He's mentally "off".
Get some counseling if you can't see that you need to set firm boundaries and not argue with him.
Im WAY better than I was. I know I still need to say NO. I dunno its just no-one WANTS to upset or argue with their parents do they?
BUT, he did one or two things and upset my wife and to be honest it had to change or I'd be divorced now.
At the moment, my wife can't stand the sight of him. I sat down, thought of things he'd done and what he'd said to me etc and how he'd treated my kids and it came to me - shes dead right. Hes my Dad but he acts like a complete selfish a@hole.
So I stopped arguing with my wife about him and defending him because shes right. Its better now - hes my Dad and I can't abandon him, but hes not my wifes father and he doesn't get her respect and its his fault.
Holidays (xmas in the uk) were a problem. My wife would put up with him on xmas day in our house and a few years he behaved appallingly to her and the kids. I did feel REALLY guilty but was planning to leave him home alone xmas day a few years ago. Since then hes been to brothers xmas day.
He still visits us boxing day dec 26th. Wife makes sure shes out or working :-) Like I said, can't say I blame her.
Its better now, wife and I have a truce. She can't stand him, doesn't want anything to do with him, but understands hes still my Dad. Fair enough.
Your posts are so helpful. You have such confidence and control. I hope to achieve that one day. I am making some strides with help from the wonderful people on this forum. Occasionally I second guess myself.
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
I certainly don't have all the answers. It might be part of your (and others) upbringing (bow to mom and dad's wishes, be polite/respectful to elders, etc.) Most likely it is because she IS your mother. Secondary problem is your mother lives with you, so you deal with her much more often! You DO want her to be happy and probably see doing the things she asks/demands as a way to make her happy. You can always agree with her, whether comments or asking for something, but defer the action. Ok, I'll do/get that, be back in a few or just nod in agreement. By now you should know which deeds bring mom the most happiness - focus on those, let the others slide.
In your instance, if it's a 'want', you have to weigh what would make mom happy vs what you want/need to do or what keeps you sane. Prioritize tasks, Does she really NEED what she asks/demands or can it wait (she won't think so!) If it can wait, let it. If you are "up" for it, go ahead and do it. If not, make a mental note to do it and let it ride! She might forget or might ask again. Hope for the forget!
Also, as I mentioned to OP, DON'T share any reasons for the delay or refusal to do something. DON'T share YOUR plans with her. These give them fodder for lambasting you! Just agree with statements or agree to do the task (but think first!) and move on to something else. It takes time and your patience to move through this, but each attempt makes the next one easier.
Although I had examples for how I "learned" to not respond or get angry, as well as realizing I cannot change others, it might be possible to deal with them like I did my kids (didn't plan this idea, it just happened AND worked!) Dealing with dementia in a LO can bring us back to those "terrible twos!" ;-)
When my kids would want something and start to pester, my first response would be "I'll think about it." If asked again it would be "If you ask again, the answer is NO." I refer to this as the line in the sand. You cross it, all bets are off. The line, of course, has to be reasonable so that you CAN stick to it! If they didn't cross the line, perhaps they would get what they wanted, but NOT every time! Therefore the only guarantee was nothing if you dare to cross it. On the flip side, sometimes you might get rewarded for not crossing the line!!! They learned so quick that the question posed next would be "Did you think about it?" :-D Again, sometimes the answer was yes, sometimes no, but to them it was worth staying behind that line just in case! This might work for someone in early stages of dementia or for just plain cantankerous LOs, but it is worth a try!
I sort of do this with mom. I give her a chance, but unlike with kids, she might not learn as well (or just plain forget.) The biggest issue with our mom is that she forgets stuff so quickly - she'll repeat statements, questions, comments, over and over. It is annoying, but one can learn to tune it out (again, easier for me since she doesn't live here.) Using refocus/redirect I can sometimes stop the broken record, but she might find that scratch again later! Oh boy, we get to do it again!
It is also okay to vent now and then - otherwise that steam (there will still be some) can build up too much pressure. Let off a little here and there. Your post about how to deal with this without going insane brought out some laughter for you and others. That was good! Laughing some things off out of earshot can be cathartic. We're not laughing AT them, just at the sometimes silly and/or frustrating things that go on. Know that you are doing your best. Know that the sometimes hurtful things they say/do are a product of this nasty ailment and try not to take it personally. For those who deal with the nasty LOs who were like that before dementia, do the best you can and try to find time and laughter for yourself. If nothing satisfies, learn to walk away quietly.
Thanks. I can’t put my finger on it. My mom always had wonderful manners and raised us that way too.
I think a lot of it is feeling like she is running out of time and things must be done right now! Know what I mean? Sometimes, the elderly get impatient!
I adore what the gentleman said! He truly was a gentleman, was he not? Lovely isn’t it? Thanks for reminding us of that. Kindness is so sweet.
This has nothing to do with the OP but it reminds me of the story of the guy who rushed to open a door for a woman during the height of the feminist era of the '60's, only to be told, "You don't need to open the door for me because I'm a lady!" To which he replied, with a little bow, "Madam, I did not open the door for you because you are a lady. I opened it for you because I am a gentleman!"
I say good morning, please and thank you because I was raised to be courteous, polite and to have good manners. And by the grace of God I will behave that way no matter whom I am with or what my circumstances, as long as I live.
Have to ask a question please. I have been able to successfully do as you say with others but why, oh why do we trip up because it’s a parent? I have said to myself, “But it’s for my mom.” Please help me understand why I and others do this.
Thanks a million!
Absolutely BRILLIANT!!! Your answer is so good. I need to record your answers and play them in my head day and night.
The two things to focus on are:
1. N O - two letters, one simple word, which as others have noted IS a complete sentence!
2. Do NOT share any information about you or your family, along with that NO. No why or why not, just NO. No means NO. By adding to it, such as saying the wife isn't home to care for the kids, you are FEEDING into the problem. If you don't feed it...
Repeat 1 and 2 as needed.
(phone calls - either don't answer or hang up when he starts in on anything. if it was a true emergency, he likely wouldn't be able to call, right? personally I prefer the "do not answer" method.)
I applaud you for being a good husband! Let brother’s companion do father’s laundry if she chooses. Your wife does not have to do his laundry. Your wife has enough to do! Oh my gosh, I could scream hearing the term, ‘woman’s work.’
I grew up as the only daughter in that type of family. I hated it! People always thought I was the spoiled one, a princess, the only girl. Are you freakin kidding me? Anything but? Having brothers and parents with a sexist attitude I learned to defend myself! I got into trouble sometimes for not backing down, but that’s another story. Other times, I would grin and bear it but be boiling inside.
Your wife is smart staying out of his mess, but I am sure it hurts her to see you upset. I know it hurts my husband if I am hurt. My husband is like your wife. He has never been an ‘in your face’ loud person. He’s reserved.
He’s very laid back, very logical, scientific type of mind. He has a beautiful heart but doesn’t wear it on his sleeve. He’s not an ‘open book’ kind of person. He’s private with others. I like a little mystery.
I suspect your wife is like my husband, intimate with those in their circle but not with others. It’s why I married him!
My husband didn’t smother me like my family did. My family never respected privacy.
I was the ‘free spirit’ as a kid. It saved me from certain turmoil growing up, time to myself, hopping on my bicycle and riding for miles to the library to check out my favorite poetry books or other reading material, fiction and nonfiction.
Very often I thanked my mother in law because she was forward thinking for her generation and did not raise sexist sons! I appreciate that she raised him that way.
His dad is another story! My husband had to distance himself from his dad. Thank God, his dad moved to another state. He caused a lot of pain for us after my mother in law died. His true colors came out. My husband desperately tried to reason with him but couldn’t succeed because his father had too much pride and basically a very selfish man. He didn’t even care about our children, his granddaughters and it just got to be too much water under the bridge. His loss for missing out on beautiful grandchildren. It did hurt my girls. The wanted to know their grandfather. Thank God they had my dad.
I was foolish and tried to be the peace maker and got caught in my father in law’s wrath. My husband was furious at him for that! Your wife is very wise to stay out of his mess! I learned the hard way.
My husband and his father are nothing alike. My husband took after his mom and maternal grandfather whom I adored!
His mom would tell me privately that she never wanted her sons to be raised like her husband was, she hated that ‘woman’s work’ mentality.
I do things for my husband because I love him. He does the same for me. I suspect it’s the same in your marriage. Your dad should not interfere in your marriage and does not have the right to criticize your wife. That would get under my skin. Can’t change him but I am glad you are not buying into his crap! Your brother’s companion is playing some kind of game. We all know people like that.
My husband doesn’t pull that ‘woman’s work’ crap! I would not have married him if he had. We’ve always been a team. I have been blessed to have a good husband and he’s a wonderful father to our daughters.
Don’t back down, Paul. It isn’t worth it in the end. You will pay a price if you give in, a high price. The stress will kill us.
I wake up, bring mom breakfast and coffee, tend to her other needs. She ALWAYS has a list for me. Not even a ‘Good morning’ first. I’m presented with a list. I used to burn up inside, do everything on the list quickly and efficiently so I could get it over with. It was killing me, physically and emotionally. I stopped! Now I do what I choose. Tell her no to unreasonable demands and walk away. If she gets mad, so be it! It took a lot of people on this forum to drill sense into my thick skull! Haha.
You have gotten a lot of good suggestions here, but you keep coming back to the same thing: your dad behaves abominably, you resent it and feel rage and resentment, but you keep letting him suck you in because you are programmed by guilt and obligation to jump when he says jump. You need new strategies. Some of your anger is directed at him because he won't change (either he can't, or why should he?), and some is directed at yourself (you don't know how).
It's okay to say no to him. He won't die, although he will try to convince you otherwise. You won't die either, although you'll feel like it at first. Habits are hard to break. They are like chains. But you can if you choose, and if you develop strategies and follow them. The first thing you have to do is set yourself free. You are an abused child. Counseling really will help.
I wish you courage and strength going forward as your eyes are opened to see what this man is doing to you, your wife, your marriage and your children.
And yes, hell have made his own bed. I'm with CM. Figure out how often you can cheerfully visit and do so. Call once a week.
You're not geographically close enough to be of much use in an emergency.
Of course, you're dead right.
Dad moving in with me? Aarrgghh the nightmare will be back tonight lol. My wife knows full well what hes like - if I even entertained the idea she'd leave the same day (and I'd do the same if it was reversed).
Dad never had an affair but seemed to have a massive martyr complex from what I remember with his 2nd wife. And as he displays now a totally stubborn attitude to anything he hasn't thought of.