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Thank you Needhelpwithmom, I sent you a pm about it too.
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Elaine,

I wholeheartedly support your decision to get up and walk out of your mom’s home.

You certainly had every right to do so. I’m so very proud of you 👍!

Your mom has missed out on so much of her life by not cooperating with you.

As you have clearly stated though, that is her choice so why should you make your life miserable by banging your head against her brick wall.

I admire your common sense in this matter. I only wish that I would not have become so wrapped up in my mom’s perfectionist behavior. I could have spared myself years of pain!

Mom was extremely difficult to please. Extreme perfectionists make themselves and others who try to help miserable. Everything had to be just so! I went above and beyond and it was never acceptable for her.

Live and learn. Unfortunately I had to learn the hard way. For some reason I couldn’t figure it out on my own. I didn’t see what the forum was telling me. I was too close to the situation for so long that I see now that I was totally blind.

When I finally saw the light I felt like the weight of the world had been lifted off of my shoulders.

This is why I try to be as patient as I can with new people on the forum because for some of us it takes time to absorb and process the changes needed in our lives to achieve harmony and peace.

I am thankful to everyone who did not give up on me and remained encouraging so that I could break free to live my own life that I truly deserved. That was my problem. I didn’t feel as if I deserved it. I used to feel like I owed my mom everything.

Now, I am grateful for the things mom contributed to my life but I realize that we don’t have to pay back a debt so much that it leaves us emotionally and physically bankrupt.

Keep sending your positive messages to posters. It’s needed on this forum.
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Hudster72, I thought I was the only person in the world who had a gambling addiction and a hoarder. I saw your post and thought it was my post.

It certainly is h*ll. Mom won’t let me touch anything in her house or even throw out an empty Kleenex box.

The gambling addiction came in the early 1990’s. My father tried everything to get her to stop gambling. Nothing worked. She didn’t think she had a problem. She saw nothing wrong with what she was doing. My father was a Senior Vice President at a bank and saved a lot of money. She gambled all of it after he died in 1998. Blew through hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Today, she is looking to applying for Medicaid. Last year she was 100.00 over the limit. It’s sickening.

She won’t bathe and she won’t let me help her. She looks worse than a homeless person except she has her own house.

doctors, lawyers, policemen, EMT workers, firemen all said since my mother is competent and of sound mind she is free to live any way she wants.

She has mental illness, but just because someone has mental illness doesn’t mean they are incompetent!! I learned all this the hard way.

Thankful for this forum. Been here over one year now and it helps me!!

I meant to say my MOTHER has the gambling addiction and hoarding, NOT ME!!! Just had to clarify.
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Arysha, we have a lot in common. I am 58 years old and my son lives home with me and my husband. He is 28 years old with high functioning autism.,He can work part time and drive and also goes out with his mentor which is a program we have here in Upstate New York. He can do a lot but really doesn’t have much concept with money or math. He can budget 20.00 and knows what it is.

My mother doesn’t live with me but she’s 96 and lives alone in her hoarded house. She’s also a gambling addict. Gambled all my fathers money away.

She won’t let me help her with ANYTHING!! So I stopped nagging her as she puts it. She wants me to take her to the foot doctor on Halloween morning but hasn’t washed her feet. I was trying to have her let me do it and she said no!!

When we faced timed with my older son in NYC at the end of the call she told him she loved him. She said I love you Jon, but I don’t love your mother. I took the phone from her, grabbed my coat and purse and walked out her door. This all just happened an hour ago.
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You are not alone. My mother was the same way . a controlling nasty manipulative woman who ound fault with everyone but herself. she borw beat my dad and alienated his family her own family and all the extended family there was.
When she was in her 90's she was forced to go live in a nursing home. BUT not until she had run my daughter ragged trying to find in home care round the clock and not until she weedled my kid into thinking she owed it to her to take her into her home with her husband and 2 kids. My daughter never understood what miserable creature my mom was until she tried taking care of her at home .
It took less than a month and she was over it.
She found her a really really nice nursing home/ group home in Fremont for her. She is very lucky to have my daughter to care for her and do that. I certainly would not have bothered.
When they told my daughter she was probably in her last 6 or so months she insisted on flying me out with her and my nephew. She said I would regret it if I did not make my peace.
There was little to be made peace with by that time. I am not sure if she knew who I was or not. I had not seen her in 20 years . I am grateful and proud of my daughter for all the effort she made. she grew up fine. I did I guess what you are supposed to do concerning my mom.
DO NOT FEEL GUILTY. YOU DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG .
Take your life back spare your kids the grief. enjoy some of your life free of the humiliation andnegativity and critisism. I was only 56 at the time I am 60 now. I am glad for the years i spent free of the misery. I did not suffer from much guilt for very long but believe me you should not. Sounds like you already paid your dues.
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Arysha,

Would be a fun block party!
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I wish everyone here lived on the same block so we could start two clubs. One for us to talk about our issues and find support with one another and another club so our mothers could sit together and get their social on.

When I first started reading this thread I was much more venomous than now. Reading all your stories made me realize I am not the only one with mother problems. I have many of the same issues you all have. I am 57 years old and have a 26 year old son who has high functioning autism or Asperger's living with me. Plus my mother and I are joint tenants in the house so one cannot sell without the other. We have been living together for 15 years, my mother and I have never really gotten along. When my parents divorced I opted to go with my father, turned out he wasn't the best parent either, but the better option.

Every day I wake up and start my day by getting coffee and going back to my room, watch tv and start days chores. Mom loves Fox news, so that is all she watches all day long. It's just too much for me, I only need to hear a news or political story once, not over & over & over again. I think she is basically brainwashing herself because she gets meaner, nastier and angrier every day. I can understand, because if I watch that all the time I find I get the same way, heaven help me. So to solve this issue I bought myself a TV for my room, it has made me a less angry person but I find most of my day is spent in my bedroom. Mom says she would feel like she is locked up in jail if she had to spend all day in her room. Imagine lol. That's ok, I am finding it to be my solace. Isn't that sad?

Mom used to be a sales person (home parties). First she was shy and quiet, then figured out how to put on that smile and be the best friend to everyone. Older now she is that way to everyone she meets. As long as it is for a short time she appears to be the nice old lady. But living with her is just the opposite, In fact she used to go to the local senior center, but she said some things the locals did not like now no one will talk to her. So she just doesn't go anymore, difficult for someone who likes people to hear her talk. Of course every word that comes out of her mouth is negative, angry and about politics, which I cant stand. Thus the self-banishment to my room and purchase of my own tv.

I am on permanent disability because of back and neck issues, which makes it more difficult to do the housework, the yardwork or anything else physical. I am mentally drained and have been chronically depressed for the past 10 years. I take medication that helps a little, it stopped the constant crying and darkness, but I am still depressed just not as severely. Each day my mother sits and watches her news, she never lifts a finger to help me in any way. And if things get a bit piled up then here come the negative comments. She will say things like "that has been there for months when you going to take care of it?" or "it's like we're living in (her hoarder sister)'s house".

Cooking is another issue, every time I bring food home or cook the smell makes her sick, sometimes vomiting and sometimes just nauseas. We have just recently come to the agreement that I will make an ensure shake for her and she can nibble as she chooses. Nothing more embarrassing than the doctor telling us she is malnourished, making me feel like an elder abuser, when the reality is she wont eat anything but toast, peanut butter and crackers, ramen or cake or ice cream.

I have been made to feel like the help for forever. I am trying to work my way through this and put myself in a better mental state. It is not an easy, but I hope if I can use this sight as a form of support and be persistent then perhaps it will happen some day. The only thing I can hang on to is to hope that some day my life will be my own where I can make my own choices and not worry if "Mom" approves.

Thanks for your stories, and God Bless us all.
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I’m living this right now too. I feel like I could’ve written what a lot of ppl have written in here. It’s miserable. I thought that I was doing the best thing for my mom. She had been living with me for 2 years now and doesn’t want to anything I ask, criticizes anything I fix her to eat. Doesn’t appreciate anything at all. So many things to list. I honestly can’t take it any more. My health is suffering. I’ll be in the grave before her at this rate. Going to have to put her in an assisted living. Hindsight, I should’ve done something before now. I pray that I am not this way to my daughter when I get older. I told her in advance, that I never want to be remembered like this or be a burden.
I am sorry for those that are going through these difficult times and hope that you find a solution before you and your family suffers health problems. It’s a real struggle.
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Welcome to the saddest club in the world - children of selfish/narcissistic parents. A common theme running through many of these posts on this thread is the feeling that you are alone, and the only member of this club. Sadly the reality is that there are many thousands of us. Also common is the confusion, exhaustion, anxiety and depression that comes with a lifetime of trying and failing to make sense of why a parent would want to treat their own child in this way. This really is a pointless exercise - they are unlikely to ever change. I’ve found after many many years of struggling that it is better to focus your energies on understanding your own needs (these have often been lost after years of being ignored or dismissed as unimportant) and identifying those aspects of parental selfishness that cause you the most upset. It is not easy, and is a slow process that may be met with much resistance and further poor behaviour, but rebalancing your life to increase the care you give yourself is so important for your own good health. Setting limits on the amount of “running around” you do after your selfish parent helps to free up some of your time, so that you can care for yourself or do some activities that give you pleasure (if you can remember what they once were). If the rages and bad mouthing start, walk away for your own sanity and well being. I find that having rebalanced my life in this way a few years ago, I have a little more energy and have re connected with some hobbies that give me pleasure. I weathered the parental rages that followed, but stayed firm about what I needed to do. But this process of finding a balance requires constant vigilance. My mother continues to try and find “ways in” to getting me to do unnecessary things for her and to load the burden of responsibility on to me for anything she doesn’t want to do for herself. The difference now is that I can see this manipulation as soon as it starts and can say no before it escalates. To everyone out there in the same situation, you have my sympathy, you are not alone, it is not your fault your parent is so selfish, your health and wellbeing are important, and you are entitled to a life of your own. Hugs and support to those struggling.
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I am living this right now. I totally lost my mind today and had a breakdown. My mother is terrible to deal with. I am losing days at work (self-employed, don't work, no money). She doesn't seem to care about me at all, just herself. I have hired cleaners, caregivers, arranged rides, take her to all medical visits, buy all her groceries, pay all her bills and she gives me absolutely no regard. She doesn't care about anyone but herself. My daughter and I visited last week. She said exactly 4 words to my daughter, "how are you" and then "bye" when we left. If the attention isn't on her, she's not interested. She's cheap as hell, and has plenty of money. This is nothing new, really, if I think about it. She's been like this her whole life. She did nothing for her children, absolutely nothing, but expects me to do everything for her. I've had her tested for everything you can imagine, and she comes back with a clean bill of health. There is nothing wrong with her. She complains about everything. I am a sucker, a doormat and only I can make a change. I feel for all of you going through this. I have zero guilt though. I've done all I can for a person who is not willing to help herself at all.
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Ah, yes. The guilt. It almost drove me insane -- the back and forth between being hurt (and angered) by my mother, and then trying to be compassionate towards her (her condition, her miserable life). I finally stopped! To save myself. She's in an independent senior facility and so I'm just waiting for the call to tell me it is finally over. That's all I have left. Waiting for her demise. I've been sad, I've been in therapy, I've been through ALL the emotions and I'm tired. Tired of trying one more time "because she's my mother." Only people with mothers like ours can understand -- because everyone else seems to judge me, so there's no one I can talk to about this very painful situation. It's a lot. Your post let me know I'm not alone. Thank you.
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Welll, well, well. Aren't we all in the same boat. 4 and 1/2 years of all this sh** plus a lifetime of agony from a narc mother who thinks everything (my siblings and i) should revolve around her. I've been punched - kicked - poked and prodded - but nothing was her fault. I have an attitude problem apparently (that means sticking up for yourself). I am 60 years of age and she still expects me to "kow tow" to her lifelong bullying. End of tether - what now. Insists on staying in her own home - but expects everyone else to do all the "f***ing crap" that goes with it regardless of having a life of our own. Xxx
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Hugs, cdelgado. 💕
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I am living this life!! My mom is making me feel like I am going crazy. I am so depressed and she is literally sucking all of my energy out of me. My kid's will not come over and visit. I feel uncomfortable in my own home, but yet she can put on this sweet little old lady act in front of other people. She lies to her doctors, friends, family and will blow up if called pout. We have always had a rocky relationship, me being her "problem child". I am so exhausted. She is so mean and nasty to me and it has become more frequent. I am in therapy and am trying to self care as much as possible, but when do I say enough is enough. I'm running out of tears!!
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This is perhaps the saddest thread on here. Wishing all of you the very best.

My caregiver days are over but I had it rough too. I can relate.
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Well I have an elderly mentally ill mother who is a hoarder and has a gambling addiction. I didn't know it was possible for someone to be soo negative she has torn our family to shreds im at the point where if i never see her again that would be fine with me. She is very manipulative,a lier, complainer i can go on for days! But the crazy thing about her she has alot of people fooled into thinking that she is this sweet old lady. She plays the victim perfectly. So everyone feels sorry for her. She has caused so much mental damage to me that i might not ever recover from.
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I am 60 as well and I left a career making $130,000 per year to HELP take care of Mom. She doesn't want my help. She doesn't appreciate anything I do for her. She demands it. She is mean like so many Mom's. I'm sick of it. I can't take any more of being around her. She talks about everyone. I get anxiety when in her company, or even talking to her on the phone, so Treadingwater...I can relate. Know you are not alone! At least your Mom is in assisted living being cared for. Mine is going to "die in her own house", she reminds me often. That means, if I dont go there the d*** is on me! So I lose either way. She is either disappointed with me or I am disappointed in myself. Stay strong and worry about you first.
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It’s terrible to have a mean elderly mother. My mother is a narcissist, always the Queen, cheap, and abusive.

I am the youngest of 10, but in a blended family. Four on each side from the first marriages then me and my older sister with them together.

they are hoarders. mainly from my mother‘s side. I believe she could not let go of her own horrible parents dying and absorbed all of their junk.

now they are at the point of not being able to continue to live in their house and it is going up for sale as soon as we clear it out. they will be living with my full sister above me.

the older siblings on my moms side are manipulative and greedy. My father (not their dad) paid for our home and always took care of us, including my moms first kids- to the point he paid for their college. Their own father is a cheap millionaire.

Now that the house is going onto the market the half siblings are chomping at the bit for their cut. Dad is worn down from mom all these years and Doesn’t want to fight any more. Mom thinks her first four and us two are the only ones that matter in their estate. She doesn’t like my dads other four and refuses to acknowledge their fair claim.

moms first four are cheap, too. They have pressed us two about our “angle” with “mom’s estate.” The one our father paid for. He is the loving kind Generous one. At this point I am feeling hatred towards her because she’s always the victim and always wants to be right and seems to care only for herself. She also beat the h*ll out of us as kids. Dad didn’t. I love my dad so much. I Wish mom would go first so dad could be free. and then the older half siblings would be SOL. Lol

also I have been here near them for 10 years. The rest of the family doesn’t even live in the same state. I’ve been to the hospital with them and Spent holidays with them and shared my own kids with them and the rest haven’t been around at all, except the one older than me. Yet my mother says that all her children are seen fairly in her eyes. Just today she reminded me of the prodigal son story which really hurt to hear. I guess I’ve wasted my time caring for a narcissist. But it was because I care so much for my dad I didn’t want to leave him. My mother just plain sucks.
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Totally agree with all that's been said here, and I'd just like to again say that it is so important to think about and acknowledge your own needs, especially in these worrying times. Years of conditioning from a selfish person can make you lose sight of this, always putting another's needs and wants before your own, and wondering why you are always so tired, worn out, ill....
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I see this was submitted yrs ago but I’ll reply anyway...

I hear you & you’re not alone. Living with a narcissistic person is crazy making. Then you add Dementia & guilt & your own needs & you have a very bad recipe for being unwell in so many ways. If I hear you right you’re saying that it’s these specific words that are getting to you the most. Again, you’re NOT alone. I know what you’re going through & how it feels to add gramma to the list of ANY event.

First, you can’t please a narcissist, never ever. If that was happening before dementia it sounds like you need to give yourself permission to unplug from the guilt that was either laid on you, or any self-imposed “false” guilt.

Second, the Assisted Living facility sounds like it might finally give you the needed breaks YOU need, (& it’s normal to have needs of your own, in case you forgot that). Let that facility do what they’re paid to do. They’ll tell you if & when It’s time to step in. Why not try establishing firm boundaries with mom like, 1) “I will visit you for 45 minutes on Sundays & Thursdays”, or whatever. And then stick to it like glue. Mom will complain because it’s what narcissists do, & then she has Dementia & it sounds like she may have not had to practice boundaries? And, 2) Why not give your family the gift of a “gramma-free” (& guilt-free) Christmas. Maybe you & family can record a special video message to gramma & you, or another family member, can deliver it to her. Explain kindly & simply that plans have changed this year & that’s what you must do. Period. There’s no reasoning. None of this means you don’t care for or love mom, it means you are putting your needs & those of your family first this year. She will be taken care of.

I wish you luck in implementing your new boundary strategies. And finding some health.
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Serenity2018 I hope you can find some relief. Your situation with your mom sounds really difficult. Are you able to get away for a day for a break from her or maybe hire a babysitter (companion care person)?
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I wonder what else our enraged mothers have in common:

1. My mother never had friends. I grew up with no role model for friendship. No role model for getting to know, trust, and enjoy people and their companionship.

2. Except for when I was a child my mother wasn't one to hug, caress with love or open her arms and pull you in when she could tell you needed it.

3. My Mom was always adverse to my Dad's occasional playful physical advances. This is not something my dad did on a daily basis not was it abusive or threatening but it was the the normal kind of moment that happens between spouses.

4. Whenever we were watching TV and there was a love scene that involve physical contact or sex my mother would get visibly disgusted and change the channel

5. My mother used to hold court with all of us children and talk about my father and his parents and the rest of his family behind his back. She ridiculed his parents his brother his brother's wife etc. And it wasn't just ridicule but she would share how much she hated my father and his family. These same conversations would happen over and over. And we children would learn how to take delight in putting down my father and his family

5. My mother tended to hate women more than men so it was easy to see that she could never have girlfriends.

6. My mother's strong emotions going way back when she was younger or always right under the surface. For example she would be talking to me about my older brother and then some detail about how the in-laws treated her would slip into the conversation and before you knew it she was extremely upset and crying about the vulnerability of my brother as an infant. I wonder if that state of having those emotions almost on the surface all the time is a symptom of a mental illness perhaps like borderline personality disorder.

7. My mother's perception and portrayal of herself as a victim was endless and little vignettes on how so and so or whichever person did her bad were repeated over and over and over.

8. My mother used me by confiding in me about things that my dad did to her that were abusive. She told me when I was 9 or 10 that my dad insisted on having sex with her, that it was his marital right. She parentized me.

9. My friends from high school, what few friends I had and turned out to be false friends used to tell me that they didn't think that my mom liked them. the reason being that when they would call my house to talk to me and my mom answered the phone she was angry and unkind to them.

10. My mother totally missed out on the women's movement in the 70s.
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I feel your pain. My mom lives with my husband and I. We have no children, but she has basically done the same thing to my sister and I. Now she thinks demons are attacking her and there is no reasoning with her. My sister lives 60 miles from us and has her own health issues. I will pray for all of us going through this with our parents. It is so difficult, but we have to remain strong. God bless you and your family.
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I've just read a bunch of posts and even an old one of mine. I can relate so much to so many of the things that you all are sharing about. It's uncanny, the similarities. This format is not set up very well to reply to one individual; as I read your messages I wanted to send each of you a reply but I couldn't. So I'll just finish by saying that it really really is frustrating when you have empathy in your heart and love for a parent but they can't take it, they can't receive love anymore or they never were able to in the first place. Or they are so stuck in attack mode then it makes it impossible to love them. Love yourselves. I will try my best to love myself. I deserve love. I will keep your stories in mind as I go through my days and draw strength from them. Blessings to you all.
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I'm in shock. My brother bought me airfare to go stay with my mom for a month. She is alone and she is hallucinating. And she now refuses to take the Seroquel that helps her sleep and makes her seem more like her old self. Paranoia crept in. She doesn't like that me and two of my brothers are trying to get her to take her medication and see doctors to finish her dementia evaluatiom. Our oldest brother lives near her and visits her daily and he really doesn't interact in any way with meds and docs and such. He's limited in his ability. She hates doctors. She has 50 bottles of supplements and she will take whichever ones are needed for the health issue of the day or the week. So right now our oldest brother is her favorite child. She left me a voicemail this morning that was very hurtful and struck me to my core. She doesn't want me going to stay with her and she told me that she doesn't like my company and that it would make her sick and it would kill her if she had to wake up in the morning and see me sitting across the table from her. She said I'm hard to get along with. I think she said she hates me. She said she knows what I want. I don't know what that means. It means either I want her money or I want to drug her and kill her. I know darn well that this was partly her dementia talking. But I've given up now on helping her. I want nothing to do with her. I don't give a shite about what is or isn't the dementia when she talks to me. I have a jitterbug smart phone that doesn't let you block calls so I am going to go out and buy a phone that allows numbers to be blocked and I will block her. She was my perpetrator when I was a child. She parentified me. Good bye Mom. I'm done. It's over. I'm through. Now it's time for me to take care of me and make the best life for myself that I can.
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Hi NotHappyRob....I first posted here back in late Feb 2020. I never realized how many people suffer from the same abusive treatment from their elderly mothers. It's incredibly sad & painful. We all feel your pain & have great sympathy for you. We walk in your shoes. I had a huge "Rage Reaction" on 02/24/2020. I'll never forget it. It was my son's 35th Birthday. It happened in my car...driving on a busy freeway...at night. It was horrible. I don't know how I got home in that mental state. I didn't talk to her for 8 weeks. I thought then that she had changed. She has undiagnosed mental issues...my sister & I are certain. She's 85...nothing will change her. She just went off on my terribly on 09/11...over something I wasn't even involved with ! I truly have been this woman's target my whole life...& I'm 58 yrs old !!

I feel like I need to cut ties completely now. She's a passive/aggressive manipulator & tries to ruin everything that she knows would bring pleasure to another person...doesn't matter what it is. This behavior has a huge effect on me. It's TRAUMATIC ! You too have been traumatized...we all have...& I'm so sorry for what you're going through.

Cut ties with her...if it's at all possible. You & your immediate family deserve better. Life is not supposed to be this way. Guilt destroys so much...we all must let it go. There will be better days ahead. Your mother deserves to feel some of the pain she's dumped on you.

Stay Strong...this too shall end. You have many more wonderful years left to live...free of her!
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You’re not alone. I’m still trying to heal from moving to another state into my mom’s apartment to assist her. She was a hurt angry person from childhood. Recently she was diagnosed with bipolar. Long story short she didn’t want me living with her after she insisted she wanted my help. She called the police on me, Locked me out of her apartment and I ended up homeless and trying to start over at 61. Stop the guilt, she is probably in her home with a smile on her face. Accept that she more than likely has a mental disorder that you are not equipped to handle. I‘m assuming you were abused by her as a child...Anyway I love my mother from a distance (sending cards and letters), I feel physically ill when I verbally communicate with her so I’m asking the Lord to strengthen me. Take care of your mental health first and when you are stronger you may choose to talk with her or not... but lead with self love first and forgives not forgetting....STOP THE GUILT... SHE IS YOUR MOM BUT NO LONGER YOUR ABUSER. RESPECT HER FROM A DISTANCE...I don’t wish you any ill but its sort of comforting to know I’m not alone in my feelings ✌🏾✌🏾God bless..
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NotHappyRob, you have to believe all of us when we tell you that your mother's mental illness, IS NOT YOUR FAULT and it never was!!! Ever!! You didn't cause it and you can't cure it!! She needs help. If she refuses help, then please get help for yourself. Please see a therapist for YOU. You can't change your mother. I finally realize this. I am 58 years old and my Mother is 96 years old and I FINALLY realize that her mental illness is not my fault. We should have been told as children that our mother's mental illness was NOT our fault. But that didn't happen. But I am here to tell you now that it is NOT your fault. Step away from your mother. Lead your own life. Break the cycle. NOW!!
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NotHappyRob; I hope that with some therapy, you can come to realize that your mom is mentally ill and in need of care by others, not by the children she abused.

You did not deserve thjs mistreatment and you did nothing to cause it. Likely, your mother was abused as a child and has passed along that "gift".

Break the cycle. Go to therapy.
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I have read so many heart breaking comments, here. My Mother was "difficult" all of my life. I stood up to her, once, in my life, as an adult. She was not loving and caring toward my little son. But, now, I realize that she was mentally ill. Before she passed away, she developed dementia. It was very sad. I treated my Mom with respect, most of my life. Now that she's gone, I miss her, terribly. God tells us to "honor our Mother and Father." I believe we should be thankful that, no matter how badly they treated us, they brought us into this world. And life is truly what we make it. You don't have to be a "door mat" to your parents. But I believe, once that have passed away, you will not have any regrets, if you treat them in a firm manner and with respect.
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