POA has denied me access to my mother's room at the nursing center. Can this be legal?

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Sister has questionable POA that my mother said she didn't sign but nursing center won 't let her sign over POA to me and revoke it from my sister so I can get her in my family home with me and in home care from agency, family, and friends

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Top Answer
Momlover ~ I dropped out of trying to be helpful last year when you clearly did not want advice but approval for your thoughts & actions, but I find myself here again.
OK, you refer to other patients being able to eat one week but being tube fed the next. Now I'm making a really big assumption here that You do not have access to their medical records? Ok, you are assuming neglect? abuse? from your witnessing a change in feeding?
My widowed BIL on Mon ate solid food cheese and apple with no problem, Tues-Thur could not swallow more than 0.05 teaspoon of liquid at a time. Are we neglecting/abusing him? No! He has a progressive disease which is going to get worse. His swallow mechanism is breaking down and he will need tube feeding. Does this break my heart? Absolutely, but it is the nature of his illness and if I truly care more about him than me. Then I hold back my misery and I put 100% commitment into making time with him the most fun we can have.
He's not yet in NH BUT ML when that time comes I will do my damndest to be as polite, helpful and as cheerful as I can be to NH staff. I will be grateful for the fact that they wipe his butt and not me. Not because I wouldn't, but because it keeps his dignity. I'll be glad they are there for him, because it means that the time I spend with him is quality time. Not me frazzled & exhausted because I've been caring 24/7.
As previously said so succinctly by Jeanne Gibbs you seem to fail to grasp that there are progressive illnesses and sadly your Mum has one.
Since I last responded to you on here I have myself been diagnosed with Dementia with Lewy Bodies.
As a carer I knew Dementia was a horrible thief of a disease, now on the other side as a sufferer too I get a second perspective on this most malicious of illnesses. Please, please ML try to hear folk on this forum.
You say you're Mum is unhappy and a non person when you are not there, how do you know if you are not there?
If as I suspect you are talking about watching your Mum without her awareness of your presence? Then let me tell you honestly, if ANY of the people who care about me where to see me when I am unaware they'd probably reach the same conclusion you have about your Mum. When I'm with folk I try to be positive, happy, the Lucy they know/love.
When I think I'm alone, then yes I'm often sad. I miss my SO so desperately, I wish so much he was here with me and yet I'm so glad he died before he got to see me unravelling before his eyes. I'm grieving for the person I was, and the person I'll now never get to be. I'm trying to make sense of a life, a world that no longer makes complete sense to me. As I write this I'm glad I'm alone because I am sobbing as I acknowledge to myself the honesty in these words. For anyone to see me without me knowing it's like sneaking a look at me naked!
She asks to come home with you. A lot of the time I'm fortunate enough to be fairly with it, and yet I'll tell people I want to go to the Isle of Skye and I do.
I had a literally torturous childhood at the hands of my biological parents. At age 10 I met 2 lovely individuals who fell in love and married each other. They also (astoundingly to me then and now) fell in love with a very damaged little girl of 10. They wanted to adopt me but weren't allowed. So they stayed in touch with me the rest of my life. They celebrated my achievements, were there for my heartbreaks and have loved me unconditionally no matter. These people were/are the closest I ever had to parents and I want to go home to them.
BUT ~ at that moment I'm asking to go home 50 yrs ago. To a time when I was safe with them, a child who was being protected for the first time in my life. My brain is not accepting now, when they are frail 70+ and 80+ I don't want to go home in now.
I also find that I ask to do things I feel people around me want. In my case it's certain shops or out to eat. Is it possible your Mum knows you want her to come home and she's trying to please you?
It's taken me 2 days to write this so I'm sorry if it's out of sync with other postings but it was written to try to help.
If you devoted as much effort to helping the NH to look after your mother as you have been doing interfering with their difficult task, you would find the staff readier to welcome you and your mother better looked after.

I hope that with advice and support you will be able to comply with requirements so that your mother does not end up deprived of your company. A court does not lightly prevent an elderly woman from seeing her own child; it follows that the reason they are considering doing that is your history of disrupting your mother's care. You need to stop it.

You didn't break your mother's leg, no. But you insisted on manually handling her. She has arthritis, osteoporosis and at that time an old fracture. You do not have the expertise or the equipment to handle her safely. Can you really not see that what you did, with the best of intentions, was plain dangerous?

The incident in the ambulance is another case in point. Nurses accompanying a patient in an ambulance have enough to do ensuring that the journey goes smoothly. You were getting in the way, making their job harder and therefore making your mother less likely to have a safe journey. Why couldn't you just follow the ambulance and meet her at the hospital? Can you really not see that creating this kind of needless drama is, too, agitating and miserable for your mother?

People who have had one stroke are vulnerable to having more. Risk factors include over-exertion and stress, which lead to atrial fibrillation, which leads to clotting, which leads to stroke. If your mother has been put on puréed food, and given that it is unimaginable that you are being kept up to date on her medical condition, it sounds as though she may already have had a further event. Every time you create a scene or manhandle your mother, you are going to be endangering her to a greater or lesser extent.

No one is arrested for just wanting to see their mother. But you're not doing that. You're harassing the staff and endangering a vulnerable elder. Cut it out.

Visit your mother, spend your time comforting and diverting her, do not subvert medical instructions and do not disrupt NH routine. If you can manage those things instead, I hope that your mother will long be able to benefit from your love and attention.
I have just read through your entire post from August. https://www.agingcare.com/Questions/nursing-home-holding-my-mother-hostage-186496.htm?cpage=1
There are 125 posts in that thread. Many people dropped out at about post 60, when it became clear that you were not looking for advice, you merely wanted our blessing on what you wanted to do.

That post ended up that you were dropping pursuing this in court because you moved to a larger apartment and you sister agreed to let your mom go live with you.

Apparently that never happened? So from agreeing to let Mom live with you, Sister has now forbidden you to even see your mom -- what has happened to change things so dramatically between August and January?

From the August post it seemed alarmingly clear to many of us that you had no understanding of dementia. In this post you say that "she has no other medical conditions other than the stroke and osteoporosis." Goodness! If you don't even acknowledge that dementia IS a medical condition I cannot imagine how you would begin to cope.

The NH says your mother is a two-person transfer. You insist that you could do it alone. And yet you couldn't really do it with a friend helping.

You keep going on and on about the "forged" POA, when that issue has already been decided by a court of law. They accept it as valid. Your saying it over and over will not change anything.

I truly feel the strength of your love for your mother, and feel sorry for your pain. I sincerely hope that you can regain visitation rights.

Sometimes being at home is a good option for someone with dementia. My husband stayed at home for the 10 years he had dementia, and died in our bedroom. My mother lived with my sister for 14 months, but physical and mental decline made a nursing home a better choice for her. She is doing well and is very content there. It is a case-by-case decision.

In this case it sounds like your mother is where she needs to be. I hope you will redirect your efforts to being able to visit her where she is.

Momlover, your postings are becoming more bizaar as times go on. You are becoming paranoid and misinterpreting what is being said to you in the responses. You are a poor candidate for guardianship of your mother. You are clueless about the proper care for your mother and your mental soundness is questionable. I do say though, your postings have been quite entertaining these past two weeks.
So let me get this right, you want catholic charities to foot the bill for your mom coming home when she is getting the care she needs now? Charities are to provide temporary help to a person in need not support someone because they want to do something on a whim. You really need to step back and re-evaluate things.
BTW ML I have had loved ones in NH and not been allowed to see them. My adored adopted "Nanna" had family who banned me from seeing her because they resented our relationship.
I didn't create a fuss, I made little cards, crocheted a shawl, made tiny pigs (Nanna loved pigs), anything that told Nanna I was thinking of her, I loved her and did not add to the distress.
I would have broken down the doors and stolen her away if I could. But that would not have helped anyone. She was in a safe place and her family believed in what they were doing. Sadly she died, my last memory of her though is not in a hospital bed. It is of us at our regular Friday morning tea. Best china cup, saucer and plate. Naughty biscuits and "girly" chatter. Grandpa Bernie snoring in his armchair.
Momlover123, I don't think you quite get it. I REALLY don't want to hear, over and over, about your evil sister and when your mother broke her leg and how mean and unreasonable the private nh staff is. Really. Skip that stuff -- you won't have so much to type.

But it is good to hear about your actual visits. Does you mother like getting her hair brushed? Some people really enjoy that. (My husband did!) Lotion and a light massage is very pleasant for some people. Take your cues from how she reacts.

If Gwenie had answered, what were you going to talk to her about? Nothing that would disturb your mother, I hope! When my step-daughter goes to visit her birth mother in the nh she sometimes pre-plans a call to her uncles, to be sure they will be there and everyone is ready to talk.

About the orange juice -- your mom is on the kind of diet to help prevent aspiration pneumonia. Liquids can be dangerous, because they slip right down, sometimes before the little flap that protects the airway has a chance to close. If even water "goes down the wrong way" and winds up in the lungs it can cause havoc. Lungs are not meant to process food and liquids. So the solution is to thicken the liquids and they will take take just a tiny bit longer and give the flap a chance to close. Your mom can probably have orange juice or any other liquid she likes, but it should be thickened first. There is a powder for doing this that is clear and has no taste when stirred into a liquid. This can be done for coffee or orange juice or 7-up. Heck, I did it for my husband with beer and wine. The point is not to deprive your mother of her pleasure in food, but to prevent her from dying from pneumonia. Instead of barging in there with things YOU think she can eat, how about having a chat with the nutritionist or dietitian in the facility. Go humbly and to learn something. Learn what is available in the NH kitchen that mom could have for a snack when you come. Ask if there is anything you could bring from home as a treat. AND LISTEN TO WHAT THE EXPERT TELLS YOU. You really don't know everything, but I hope you are capable of learning.

You'd like to engage your mother's love of taste, but how would you like to arrive one day and have them tell you your mother has pneumonia? Find out the SAFER way for mom to enjoy OJ. If you could bring yourself to acknowledge that there might, just might, be legitimate reasons behind what staff does at the nh, you could be a much more constructive visitor.

BTW, I watched my husband's swallowing test live, on a monitor in another room. What I saw had me in tears. That poor little flap couldn't keep up with regular swallowing. It was a little better as they tried thick and thicker liquids. Then the tester and the speech therapist went over the video of it with us. It was sobering.

If you could manage to stay on the good side of staff, you could learn lots of ways to show your mother love without endangering her.
Momlover123, I just read your profile where you have given much more information. You mentioned your Mom is in a wheelchair due to a stroke from 10 years ago, which means it could be very difficult for you, family, and friends to lift her from the bed to the wheelchair to the bathroom, etc. You and everyone else will need to learn the correct way to lift, and how to bathe a wheelchair bound person, etc.

Please note that not all elders want to age at home because they know they need a higher level of care than their grown children can provide.... plus they don't want their children to quit outside employment thus not adding to their own retirement fund.

My Dad [94] recently went into Independent Living facility where he can age in place, and he's happy as a clam being there. He actually has more freedom to do what he wants, when he wants, and be around people of his own generation. He's made more new friends in the past 5 days then in the past 10 years living in his house :)

As for the Power of Attorney, was it drawn up by an Attorney and signed by your Mom in front of the Attorney? Was it witnessed by 2 other people [or what is requested by your Mom's State] who are not part of the Will in front of a Notary? It could be your Mom didn't remember signing it as she could be in age decline where her memory might not be as sharp as it once was.
Momlover, just read Jeane's reply to you ~ please listen to her.

We'd like to hear about visits with your Mum, BUT we none of us can keep reading over and over how evil your sister is, how nasty the staff at the NH are or how personally persecuted you are.

Remember this is her Mum too, she too is a "Momlover" and she must be in so much pain because she made the right, the best and the only sensible decision for her/your Mum.
She knew she could not continue to care for your Mum the way she needed to be cared for.

She didn't turn to the other "Momlovers" in you family, you and siblings because she knew that for your Mum's safety it was vital she be where professional people are on hand at the push of a button.

I don't for one second think she's evil or that she has the time/energy to spend planning ways to hurt you, stop you being with Mum.

She is trying (just as you are) to protect the Mum she so dearly loves. Sadly instead of being able to share this role with you, she's ended up having to fight you over and over.

You write that she's banned you from seeing Mom and she says that you give out too much info about Mom to other family members.

Ok, remember that shoe swopping? time to try again.....in your sister's shoes for a minute.

She loves your Mum, she feels guilty at her decision even though she knows it to be the right one. Then she hears that you are sending information about her/your Mom to family members.
Do these people visit Mum? Are they in regular contact phoning to chat, writing, sending pretty postcards to brighten her room and bring the outside/wider world to her?
If they are in touch why do they need your reports? If not what about your Mom's right to privacy? Has she asked you to contact these folk? To talk about her? To wash the family's dirty laundry like this?

Ok to the Staff, please re read my private message to you on your board.

I'm not saying I told you so, but you've posted here that using my "protocol" with your Mum has worked and I'm truly delighted for you both.

How about trying with the staff? If they are all the horrors you believe them to be. Then you be the better person, blind them with kindness so they can learn to change their ways.
On the other hand if they are (as I believe to be true) hardworking people, doing a thankless task for way too many hours and far too little money.
A job that is far more vocation than job then these Angels deserve at the very least a thank you for the hours they put in behind the scenes.

You see Momlover, sadly your Mum is not their only charge and I bet not all the people they care for have a "Momlover" in their lives either.
So these Caring People the staff you denigrate so often are caring for many people with many different medical conditions/needs.

They are spoon feeding, tube feeding, giving trays. As you've observed this routine can change in a week too. Changing nappies (diapers), wiping bottoms, creaming against sores, taking others to the toilet.
Dressing/undressing those who can't, encouraging those who can to do so, trying to persuade those who can and do at inapropriate times not too.
Dealing with medication, checking those who hide it, won't/can't swallow.
Trying to bring comfort to those locked away in the past wanting Mums and Dads long dead, trying to explain to lost/frightened patients why they can't go home. Especially as for some of them {like me}, that "home" is a yesterday place long gone if it ever existed outside their imagination/longing.
Dealing through the night with nightmares, calls for another drink, the loo, a story. Not just your Mum, but all those other Mums, Dads and people who never got the chance to be parents.
So many people, so many different stories, so much happiness and pain in all those bodies.

Through all this Management is breathing down their necks to cut corners, get more out of less, turn a penny into at least a 20p if not a pound (sorry not au fai with US currency). Make not one but several silk purses from a single sow's ear.

If that's not enough, they lose patients they've cared for but they are only "staff" so their grieving holds no place.
They are berated by patient's family (Momlover and your ilk) who are sure these overworked people are lying.

Now Momlover, lets be honest in the time you've written here you've certainly given them enough grist to their mill with Your attitude/actions but honestly with all they have to do in a work shift do you really think they've the time or the inclination to plot against you?
I think it more likely if they've a second free to think, then they are wondering how to take care of their own families, perhaps working out how to squeeze precious time from frantic schedules to visit their aged parents in a NH facility. Hoping that their own children are nicer/ more understanding of care staff when they put their M's & D's in an NH.

If my approach with your Mum helped you both, then I'm going to suggest you try this too. Smile (nicely) at each member of staff you pass. Honey yields better results than vinegar.
Now that I would like to hear about! What response do you get? How many forced smiles before a real one? Did you feel better for it?

More suggestions for your Mum, does she have a favourite perfume? Check!!! it would be okay to put a little on her after she's had her hair brushed, If she would like.
If staff and Mum agree perhaps you could "gently" cream her feet/legs, arms/hands to keep circulation moving and keep her feeling physical contact.
You talk of wanting to bring her into the wider community, this right now isn't safe for her so bring the wider community to her.
NO ML, not lots of visitors! Instead photograph/video the places/people you want her to see. Get the people to write her little notes, draw a picture, write a postcard.
Start a memory book of places, people, memories of things she did with you and take it in to share with her.
When she is called to the next chapter this could be a lovely memory for you of time shared.

Ask those charged with her care, what they believe would be useful/helpful to her. Then Listen to their answer.
As a teacher yourself you know the formula of listening, inwardly digesting what you heard then acting.

By actions like these you will show your sister and the staff that truly your Mum is safe with you and you do care more for her needs as they truly are, than her needs as you choose to interpret them.

Remember ML how in the New Testament it states that in a gathering of people no one will truly speak in tongues or have visions unless there is someone to interpret them?
Some will speak in tongues or have visions that have no interpretation. These people are not lying, they are just so seized with a love of God they want to have these gifts. They forget that there are other gifts to be had too.

Well, the way I see it it's a bit like that at the moment for you and your Mum.
At this stage in her life in the NH (a gathering of people) you need to have confirmation of God's will for her by checking the messages you belief she gives you, or the need you perceive see with the staff around her.
They know things that you can not know. They don't have your precious memories of the lady she was.
Instead they have the knowledge of the lady she is.
They know how she slept/or didn't last night, whether she managed to have breakfast, has she been to the loo?
These things ML at this time in her life are not yours too know, any more than they were yours to know as you were growing up.
She is your Mum, you are her child. Right now her dignity is of necessity being drained at every twist and turn.
You ML have the power to keep some of it for her. Let the staff know and tell you these things (as and when you need the info) so that for a while longer you keep your Mother/child balance.
The scales are tipping don't take this time from her by tipping them sooner.

Trust that God who so loves a sparrow that he is sees it fall from the sky, loves your Mum enough that he has set the right people in her life right now to comfort and care for her.
Not instead of you ~ but rather right there alongside you. Just as He helped you to find this forum and the people here who have done their best to help you.

While I'm being all scriptural, and no I'm not a Christian, I'm a practising {practising because I've still a lot to learn} Taoist, a follower of Tao.
I'm using Christian scripture because what I'm quoting I believe in the truth off and because I know the Bible to be important to you.
While we share this part of the path in our walk through life it makes sense to me to speak to you in language you understand and believe in the validity and truth off.
Especially as in your fear for your Mum you see yourself hedged all around by people who lie to you.
Remember ML that You have within you The Fruits of The Spirit and to use those fruits glorifies God and thanks Him for His Son. It also bestows His blessing on those you offer the fruits to. Do correct me if I'm wrong, it is many years since I studied the Bible at Uni, but I believe "The fruits of the Spirit are Love, Joy, Peace. Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, Self Control."
What a showing of God's great mercy were you to go into the NH displaying these gifts to those you meet as well as to your Mum.
Wishing you well, yesterday, today and all your tomorrows. Lucy Caitlyn
LucyCW and Jeannnegibbs yesterday my Mom said, "I want some !" in the loudest and strongest voice I 've heard in a long time when a CNA walked pass with some pork skins. She sung "I Believe I Can Fly" by R. Kelly, and we listened to "Lean onMe" by Bill Withers. My Mom ate all her food that was puréed lasagna and vegetables. Have to go. Have a good day. I stayed longer than 5pm, about 6:30 pm😀

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