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She has literally pushed away all family and friends so she has NOBODY in her life. If I walk away, who is going to know if she is dead or alive? That would mean I would have to pretend she’s dead to me now. How can this be right??? I am so torn up inside I could scream. Sometimes I wish I would die before her.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
It is extremely disturbing. Certainly, not fair. Very difficult to contend with. I’m sorry, Elaine. I wish that I could have been more helpful. You know that I wish you all the best and wish you could live in peace. You deserve to be at peace.
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Stay in touch with APS.
A person who refuses help may eventually accept it. It is important for everyone to stay involved and support the vulnerable adult as much as he or she will allow.
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Then she has the audacity last night at the hospital that she has NO SHOULDER TO CRY ON. That she is all alone. I told her if she wants companionships she can go to assisted living. She just changed the subject.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
That is awful. Hopefully the social worker saw through that act! Because you have been there for her, over and over again!
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I’m going to reach out to her family doctor and perhaps an elder lawyer. I get what you all are saying. I really do. I appreciate all of your suggestions and advice. But she never answers her phone so you are telling me to go no contact and not go over there. I know it is tough love. But if she dies NOBODY would know!! NOBODY would know if she died and I went no contact. She won’t answer the phone if I call. I coulf live with myself if she died because I did nothing. She could be laying in the house dead for months. How can I live with myself knowing that? It would be so much easier dealing with her if I knew she was cared for by another family member or assisted living. I think all of you have your LO placed somewhere where someone is looking after your LO. I’m pissed at myself for not putting up a better stink about all of this. At the hospital I should have acted up and said either you put her in a psyche ward or put me in one!!!!
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
Yeah, she needs mental health help! How can your mom not be afraid? Is she afraid that she won’t be able to gamble? What exactly is the stronghold in her life?
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Exactly. I called a home care agency to talk about helping my dad. They come and talk about services. When he hears the price, he says no. So it's just me and DH helping dad.

It's stressful, waiting for a crisis. Plus, if it happens, you don't know what people, G-d forbid, might accuse you of. Hopefully they don't. Yes, you can get DPOA and guardianship before something happens. But that's a long and expensive process.
We need a better way.
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Blue24 Feb 2020
Amen to that!
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Lealonnie,

So is doing nothing better than being proactive in any way? So there isn’t any place to report anything else? Sorry for my ignorance but I feel for everyone in this situation and truly would like to know how they could solve this situation.
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lealonnie1 Feb 2020
Well, I don't know! But it seems to me that Elaine has tried everything in her power to have her mom helped by social workers etc and it's failed. She keeps getting told 'your mother is competent to live alone'. So, if that's the case, then I say LET HER BE! Right? What's the alternative? Nothing else works. I don't think the situation is 'solvable' b/c the mother doesn't want help and so, nobody can force it upon her. Humans feel the need to 'fix' things, esp. daughters. Sometimes things can't BE fixed and have to be left alone. The mother wants to live alone and on her terms, so good luck mother. Live and die on your terms.
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Needhelpwithmom I know!!! She has a lot of papers in her house!!! I should have told them to send her to the psych ward for evaluation!!!! I didn’t think of it at the time.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
Yes! Could you have done that? It’s getting ridiculous to get help for parents. They fiercely protect the elder’s rights and the adult children get screwed.
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You know Elaine, it's all documented in the hospital records. She's been deemed competent on more than one occasion & able to live alone, etc. So how can YOU be blamed for ANYTHING? In fact, it should also be in their records that you have tried to help and have been told there is nothing you can do. So, if there is 'nothing you can do', then DO NOTHING.
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ExhaustedPiper Feb 2020
"So, if there is 'nothing you can do' then DO NOTHING"

I'm keeping this one in my tool box.

Thanks Lea!
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Then when I tell my friend who is also my coworker about it she says well if she lives alone and falls they’ll blame you and charge you with elder abuse.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
I wonder what would determine if you could come under fire for her actions. You don’t live with her. She isn’t in your home.
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That is true too. If I left her there they would have called a cab for her. I saw people leaving in taxis when I got there. I don’t get it either. If someone isn’t caring for someone properly it is elder abuse. But if she lives alone and can still walk and is competent nothing can be done. I can’t be charged with elder abuse if I don’t help her or go over there?
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
And you can’t sue them for releasing her into a house loaded with crap that she could hurt herself on. Makes no freakin sense to me. It just doesn’t.

Doesn’t seem fair, Elaine.

You know what? I think the social worker should have to live with her for a week. Boy, she would change her mind then!

Elaine,

Can you imagine if a fire broke out? My Lord, it would be awful!
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Thank you all so much for your responses!! I really do appreciate it!!! I question the same thing Needhelpwithmom does. Won’t I be the one charged with abandonment if I call APS? She has no animals or people living with her or children so I can’t get her on that. Why is it if a social worker goes in her house they would call APS? I called APS anonymously before and they asked me if I was abusing my mother. I said of course not. They told me if she was competent she can live any way she wants. The social worker at the hospital said as long as they have a path to get to her, that’s all they need.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
See, this is concerning to me. They asked you if you were abusing her? My gosh! What if she had not believed you? You would have been investigated. This is crazy! They need to listen to the adult children of these elderly parents.

Elaine, I truly hope this situation has a sensible solution soon!
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Yep, it's aggravating indeed.
Your mother has some huge cushions. You will bail her out of the messes she creates. She knows that.
The EMTs will bail her out by taking her to the ER for every little episode she has.
Nobody will 'do' anything about her living conditions so she knows she's safe and will be left alone.
The answer here is YOU.
Stop doing for her. Stop bailing her out. Stop rushing to the ER when the phone rings. Tell your son to call you when the crisis du jour is over with and to let you know the results. That you are WORKING and have no more leave time. Sorry mom.
Allow her to fall and hurt herself or get very sick and THAT is when she will be forced to vacate her hoarding den and get placed elsewhere.
As long as you keep picking up the pieces of the messes she makes, she's got a safe haven.
Sometimes we have to stop doing that and let the chips fall where they may. In this case, at 95 years old, I think it's the only way to get your stubborn mother the help she truly needs. By FORCING it.

Otherwise, step back and let mother live life on HER terms. Which may mean dying on her terms, too. She's a grown woman and has a right to make her own decisions, right or wrong, at least that's what everyone keeps telling you, right?

Sending you a giant hug and a prayer too. None of this is easy, that's for sure.
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ML4444 Feb 2020
You are exactly right. Quit the enabling and start letting her have consequences of her actions. I've finally started doing the same because her dr told me aps has limited power and mother has rights . So I chose myself. I wish you the best Eaine...it isnt easy.
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It's her choice to live that way. You also have choices. I agree with what Surprise wrote and that is stop going inside her house. Stop enabling her to "live alone"; it's a farce because she cannot actually live alone without you.

Not only do you drop everything and come when summoned, you tolerate her insults. She treats you poorly because you allow her to. It sounds like she's mean to you and sweet as pie to outsiders. I encourage you to read the book Mean Mothers: Overcoming the Legacy of Hurt by Peg Streep.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
NY,

Since Elaine doesn’t live with her mom she can’t get into any trouble then with elder abuse charges. Is that correct? Excuse my ignorance. Are children ever forced to take responsibility for their parents legally in any one of our states in this country?
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When they are considered competent, they can live the way they want. Now if there was a dog or cat, Animal control would have them out of that house. I have a friend who worked for the Health Department. And she said you wouldn't believe how some people live and they have a right too.

Call APS. Let them investigate. If they don't take her out, at least you have made a paper trail to protect you. Then call the Health Department. Again a paper trail.

The only thing that may get Mom out of there is no running water. Where I live no running water is a health hazard. Think about it, you need water to flush a toilet.

I would not have asked Mom if she wanted to go to the doctor, I would have just taken her. I learned not to "ask" no will always be the answer. I would just tell. Not 100% but worked most of the time.

When an Aunt if mine went to pick up her sister (also my Aunt) for an appt, she was still in her stained housecoat and slippers. Her hair was a mess, etc. We all had figured Dementia for a while. My Aunt put her sister in the car and took her to the doctor's the way she looked. As soon as the Dr. saw her he knew something was wrong. My Aunt had her hair done every week. Was well dressed. He sent her for a 72 hour evaluation. It was found she had ALZ, which runs in her family. My cousins offered to have her live with them but she didn't want to. So a really nice AL was found. It transitioned from independent living, to AL and then LTC.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
JoAnn,

You may have hit on something useful. The elderly people who have animals could be reported for animal abuse. The animal rescue group must document their cases. That information may help build a case for the elderly person, saying that they can’t care for animals or themselves. It would give the family members some ammunition against the system.
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I went through a similar ordeal trying to convince a loved one to move to AL. I had to resort to manipulation, similar to what Surprise said. This LO was growing more and more dependent on me to prop up her illusion of living independently, yet she was continually tripping on rugs, falling, not using a walker, climbing on stools, etc.

It was round and round, hospital, rehab, home and repeat for over 2 years. Her son and grandchildren would not help. Social worker told me she could essentially be laying in her own feces but if she wasn't declared "incompetent" she could live that way.

I finally backed away and told her I was not helping. She finally went. She is thriving in AL, has made friends, participates in their activities, etc.
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
What I don’t get is how an elder can self abuse and a family member can’t intervene but if someone caring for them doesn’t care properly for them it is neglect and they consider neglect as abuse. It’s terribly confusing to me. They would not see it as boundaries. It would be viewed as elder abuse.
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Great advice (and hugs) above, Elaine. Trying to help her person (body) not working, perhaps another tack might work. With her home filthy and not healthy at all, perhaps a call to the health department? If the house is in a bad enough condition, I've seen on TV where they will condemn the home (forcing a move to a clean, empty place) or require the house be cleaned to pass an inspection.

It's not perfect but that might help. Good luck to you and your mother.
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Well - if she was 25 and not 95 and lived the same way..... what would the difference be?

It is frustrating - but if she is competent, she can make her own bad decisions. But.... YOU don't have to pick up the pieces. I was always frustrated that i had to do the hospital runs, the runs to the grocery store etc. yet got no cooperation with teeth brushing, bathing, socks, etc.

Sometimes you have to step back and let the inevitable happen, the fall or medical emergency that takes the decision out of their hands. Waiting for the train wreck.
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Daughter of a (former) high level (on the top of the door frames!) hoarder here. There is **nothing** you can do as long as mom is competent, and there is a **very** low bar for competency. I reported mthr multiple times - fire dept, building code officers, adult protective, animal shelter... nothing works. People in the US have a right to live however they please up until they are incompetent, and then someone else gets a turn.

Because you cannot change her behavior, you have to change yours. What I did with mthr was to not visit her house at all. Nothing. I refused to be in that mess of a firetrap. You might say, but then Mommy won't get her groceries, or social activity... That's your point. If people won't go visit her mess, then she has to either give up the mess and move to an AL, or clean it up on her own. We know she does not want either, but you have leverage to pry her from her home once she runs out of groceries. You can bargain with her... I'll take you to the store IF we go to your doctor's and you have an exam first. Hopefully you have photos of the inside of the hoard, the kitchen, bath, her bedroom, the path to her chair, and the path from the chair to the door as evidence that her living conditions are unsafe. (Take those photos first, before drawing this line!). You'll also need POA if you don't have it already.

Depending on the Dr visit, you can now find the appropriate level of care in a home (NH, MC, or AL). Now when something happens that ends with her in the ER, you will have a list of places to call. And you will continue to use groceries or visits as barganing chips - but **don't go in the house** - protect yourself from it!
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ExhaustedPiper Feb 2020
Do you know what criteria doctors use to determine competency? I honestly don't know.

Hoarding should be considered a mental illness and safety hazard, I'm surprised more action isn't taken in these situations.
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Elaine, I am so sorry you keep getting the run around.

I'm wondering a couple things... what would have happened if you refused to take your mom back home? Just left the hospital? There was a poster here recently who did just that, although I don't recall that he followed up with what happened. Would the hospital consider her home "safe" to discharge to?

Here is another thing I would try. Start calling APS. Multiple times. Be a pain in their ass. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. Start squeaking. If they come out and then say it's okay, call a week later. Because let's get real your mother should not be living alone in a filthy house at 95 years old. Start saying things like "I'll be informing my lawyer".

Another thing, when dealing with these "professionals" who basically do nothing, start saying things like "I'm recording this (and do so) because I don't feel my mother is safe to live alone and I will hold you liable if you send her home and she gets hurt".

Who cares if you sound like a hysterical PIA, the word "liable" gets people's attention. When I did floor nursing if a patient had a lawyer as a close family member, it got passed on it report at shift change. Actually all through my health career legal threats no matter who they came from were taken seriously and actions were taken to diffuse it.
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surprise Feb 2020
Unfortunately, these people are right that they can't do anything until she is incompetent. The unsafe discharge won't work because the woman is competent and oriented, so they will tell her to call a cab to take her to her house if she's been left. :(
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Absolutely ridiculous. It occurred to me that maybe behind all of this is society's mindset (unfortunately, still) that the family (usually a daughter) will take care of the elder. I'll bet the SW was assuming that YOU would visit your mom more regularly and take care of her and her house. Even though you told her the situation, she still accepted the default of "daughter's duty."

I hate it when this happens. It sure makes it easy for the professionals, though, doesn't it, when they can just default to the "daughter's duty" mantra! And they can let lots of elders slip through those huge gaping cracks in the competency requirements, which make is such a low bar to be deemed competent!
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NeedHelpWithMom Feb 2020
I agree! You make good points! Elaine has put up with enough crap, her mom lives in a two story home, plus a hoarder, gambling, spent all of her husband’s money, insults her, condescending, patronizing, won’t cooperate, etc. It’s so sad!
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You’re welcome. I don’t know if it will help but anything is worth a try.

It’s scary. You don’t want to see her hurt.
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rovana Feb 2020
But the problem with "you don't want to see her hurt" is that in order to call their bluff you basically have to say "I don't care - whatever she decides and whatever the consequences I don't care. I DON'T CARE.  So don't try the guilt manipulation.  We are basically talking about a kind of war here. Who won't blink first. Not let's all make nice!
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That’s food for thought also. Getting the EMTs to be my witness. Thank you for all your great advice and answers!!
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BeckyT Feb 2020
EMTs are also mandatory reporters.
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Thanks for listening to me rant and rave Needhelpwithmom!! It helped to talk to you. I appreciate your answers and I knew you would understand what I am going through.
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cherokeegrrl54 Feb 2020
We all do understand, Elaine. Thats what makes it so incredibly frustrating for the ones who are giving up their life to try to take care of the elder. Until you resign yourself to say NO MORE. If they are deemed competent, then we have no choice but to let them live in their mess,,,,
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They saw her conditions. The emergency workers saw it. Can you get them to be a witness for you by giving a report of her when they arrived at her home? I am thinking that will look like an official report and the doctor won’t be able to look at you as an over emotional daughter.

Call them and ask if they can send you a testimony for you to include in a letter to try and get help for your mom. Something signed by them. They may not be able to send the original report but even just a note from the workers on duty.
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Needhelpwithmom, thank goodness she outlived her car and had no money to buy another one!!!! That is a good idea to reach out to her doctor and send a discreet letter to her doctor. I know I can’t get my mother to go now in this weather but definitely in March or April . The social worker told me that if they could have gotten her to agree to have someone come to the house, that person could have reported her if they felt she was in unsafe conditions. But apparently my word doesn’t count.
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I wonder if you could trick her somehow to get her to her doctor. Can you write a discreet letter to the doctor and see if you get a reply. If not, at least the letter is on file.

Gotta say, your mom is with it! She’s not stupid. Most people her age can’t keep up with their home. She couldn’t get a housekeeper in there though.

What about Council on Aging? Could they help? As soon as they went to her home to assess the needed care they would notice her living conditions and possibly report her and maybe their opinion would carry more weight.

It’s ridiculous they don’t respect your opinion concerning your mom’s needs. Your mom is stubborn. That’s a shame. You have been trying to help her for ages. Just think if she still drove!
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Needhelpwithmom, then the social worker says to my mom, There is only a path from your upstairs bedroom to the downstairs kitchen chair? All of the other rooms are unusable? You can’t get in there? Is that what you are telling me? My mother says yes. That’s correct. The woman is writing this all down!!!! She even told my mother she was living in unsafe conditions but because she had her mind they had to let her go. She said take her to her family doctor for a mini competency test. They don’t do that in the ER!!!
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Oh yeah, I got that crap from my mom too. They have to show that they are the mom! It’s ridiculous. Yes, they put on a front in front of others. She had to tell you about your hood on your jacket. Geeeez.

Yeah, living in a two story is bad at her age. She is lucky that she can get around without a cane or walker.
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Needhelpwithmom, I was shocked they didn’t say anything about her living conditions. She sat right there and told the social worker that she couldn’t use a cane or a walker in her house because everything is on the floor. I took her aside and said she’s a hoarder. She kept saying to my mom what are you going to do if you start shaking in bed and can’t get out of bed. What are you going to do if you can’t get down the stairs if there is a fire? What are you going to do if you fall down the stairs? After all that, my mother says, my husband wanted a two story house, I wanted a ranch house on one floor. End of story. End of discussion.
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DILKimba Feb 2020
Elaine-If I were you I would call APS, or the Fire Marshall. Sometimes they can get things rolling if the house is unsafe or a fire hazard.
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needhelpwithmom, the only thing she admits she’s afraid of is being alone. She read something about loneliness and how she doesn’t have a shoulder to cry on. The article talked about being on there cell phones instead of talking to one another face to face. I could have jumped on that and reassured her and make her feel loved but I was all consumed on trying to get help for her. Besides, she was sweet to the nurses with her please and thank you. With me she just said get me this. Go get me that. Why are you wearing your hair that way? And in front of the 3 EMTs she says to me PUT YOUR HOOD UP!!! ITS COLD OUTSIDE!!! I ignored her. She says to the 3 ENTs “see what I have to put up with?” All 3 got a big chuckle out of that.
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ExhaustedPiper Feb 2020
They got a big chuckle? Omg.

Sending another hug.
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