Can a ambulance perimedic threaten to have my mother "froce committed" to a nursing home against her and her family's wishes? PLEASE HELP!

Some of our posts on AC tend to go round and round with our own members suddenly in an argument about what happened and who is "right".

I think, in this case, we cannot know what happened, or who was right.
Rather than continue to respond to members, and not our OP, who I have given my opinion to, I am bowing out of this thread.

But Buzzer, I leave you with this.
You are an adult.
You know the company for which this EMS person works and his or her name will be on the paperwork.
Do go to the company and speak with them.
I think it may bring you a whole lot of clarification.
And do tell mom that next time such a thing happens she should dial you at once and have you speak to the EMS yourself so that you can clarify what is happening.
I truly wish you and Mom the best. I hope her back heals soon. I have been on the walker with my own and am right now in my nifty Amazon binder, trying to heal my latest bend and reach disaster. I hope she feels better soon.

@AlvaDeer: Is it really abnormal not to call EMS if your most recent encounter with EMS involved a threat of forced institutionalization? Maybe I'm abnormal myself, but this would 100% be my response. And I would consider it a completely rational one. 

I've had a pretty good life and have no interest in concluding it with the drawn-out misery of a NH.(I acknowledge that many in this forum have spoken of excellent NHs, and I am happy for them and their loved ones. My decision would be based on the ones I've directly observed myself.)

If I couldn't remember or execute on any of the strategies I've studied for avoiding a NH, I might panic and call EMS. I hope not, but it's hard to say in advance.

But my resistance to calling wouldn't be a symptom of mental illness, just a response to what I'd experienced in the past. 

Anyway, your posts always make me think, and I'm processing my thinking as I type so this might be sort of sloppy. 

I appreciate your point about how if this person has been going around doing this there are likely to be other reports. I hope you're right! I'll just note--and I'm not proud of this--that I did not report the APS person I mentioned in my other post. I just don't want to risk messing with people who have the power to strip my mother of control over her finances, her physical person--everything, really. If it were just my own life on the line, I'd report (or hope I would, anyway). But this is my mom, so the plan is to hunker down.

[EDIT: A social worker cannot directly appoint a guardian, I realize. But they can force us to deal with a dumb, lazy, and/or corrupt judge who can do that. I've read some horror stories for the past 20 years--stories researched and published by legitimate news organizations.]

I'm so sorry this happened to you. You are getting good specific replies from others regarding legalities/processes. I'm replying just to let you know that I 100% believe you and your mom and feel seething anger on your behalf. This comes in part from my having experienced something like this myself. An APS person came to our home after my mother declined treatment for a non-symptomatic lab finding while she was hospitalized after a physical injury. (fun side note: the medical literature is clear that the treatment would have caused more harm than good, and her primary care doctor was wholly opposed; he also noted that the follow-up labs in the hospital had not reproduced the finding, but a hospital staff member had already called APS)

It is her legal right to decline treatment, but APS was called and the APS dude was, at our front door, the day after we returned from the hospital.

My mom has given me medical POA, already in effect, so that I can help her when she is too tired/pain-stricken/out-of-it to resist to make decisions herself. The APS rep told me I was not allowed to talk and rejected our POA paperwork (even though it is 100% in compliance with state requirements).

He told us that HE would be monitoring the situation and was empowered to intervene to ensure she receives proper treatment (meaning the treatment she'd declined in the hospital). The exact steps that would be involved in this he did not explain, but he did leave us paperwork related to guardianships.

Honestly, I know as I write this that everyone is thinking, "well, we're hearing only one side," or "that cannot be right." After it all went down I questioned my own sanity.

All I've come up with is that this was a guy who sort of got off on pushing around two women. (I've had co-workers like this on many occasions over my work life.) There's probably more to it, but that's all I've got.

The encounter scared the hell out of me and made me want to link arms with the anti-vacc anti-gov bunker/prepper crowd.

I'll quickly add, though, that my experiences with paramedics have been wholly positive (over the past 10 years we've called twice after falls). Each time they were clear that they were just making recommendations. One time they even hinted that we might try to get mom into my car to save money on the ambulance ride. There was no sense of "the state" invading our home and imposing its will.

I truly hope that your mom's next encounter with a paramedic is a more normal one.

There can always be an outlier in every profession. This absolutely should be followed up on. Please let us know what you find out.
I’m sorry your mom was so frightened by his behavior.

Buzzer, thanks for the extra info that your Mom is not a hoarder and uses a walker for a back problem. Still, there remains a reason why the paramedic felt the need to go to an extreme to communicate something to her. If it happened the way your Mom is remembering it, then it was wholely inappropriate and should be reported to that company. However, there is still the nagging fact that the paramedic felt the need to go this length, to get her to take a further action. I agree with others that this needs to be found out.

The paramedics responding to a call cannot force a person to go to a hospital or force someone into a nursing home. What they can do is make a report to APS who will then follow up on what they're told by them.

Do you know if your mother has been abusing EMS? You'd be surprised how often EMS is abused especially by seniors. I did client homecare for 25 years. I can personally tell you of clients who called 911 for the police because the pizza they ordered was delivered with sausage instead of pepperoni. I had clients who called ambulances because they wanted to go to the store and didn't have a ride. Others who would "stage" falls and other false "emergencies" then call the paramedics because they wanted attention. One elderly client called 911 for the police because the neighbor's cat was in her yard.

So, if I were you instead of making threats to throw the paramedics out the window, why not talk to EMS and ask them how many times in say the last two months or so, your mother has called them. You might be surprised.

If it turns out that this one incident is the only time she's called them, then I'd ask the EMS supervisor why this paramedic responded to your mother like they did.

You say in the comments that your mother isn't a hoarder. Then she does not live in a filthy, unsafe environment. If this is so, there is some reason other than she uses a walker for why the paramedics responded to her in such a way. My guess is she abuses the system.

No. A paramedic cannot have a judge "force commit" your mother to a nursing home. I believe he was trying to scare her into making an appointment with her doctor for a full medical workup, however, because he saw something was not right, but not wrong enough to take her into the hospital. Such language, if it took place as stated, is entirely inappropriate.

You seem to be taking this matter as a personal attack against YOUR caregiving efforts for your mom. Which, in fact, may not be enough since the paramedic saw something wrong in her home or lifestyle. You need to put your indignance aside for a moment and ask yourself if mom is getting ENOUGH care with what you're able to provide her with? You're likely working full time, and she may need someone coming in for 4 hours a day in addition to what you're doing. Look at this unemotionally from the perspective of what more SHE may need?

Then follow BarbBrooklyn's excellent guidance of sending a certified letter to the ambulance company. That's your best bet.

Wishing you the best of luck with all of this.

The perimedic was wrong in talking to Mom this way. He could have asked for a contacts name and phone #. APS tries to get family to take on responsibility so saying family would have no say is wrong.

Is the director an MD because I think a doctor oversees perimedics. As said, if no call back, call the licensing board. When u talk to them, don't accuse just tell them what Mom said.

And by the way, not all ambulance squads have perimedics. In my Town and surrounding towns they are EMTs. Less schooling than a perimedic. Perimedics are out of the hospital and come out for certain calls, like heart attack.

An EMS person cannot DIRECTLY force admission, no.
BUT............and HOWEVER
An EMS person is a "mandated reporter". That is to say that he/she MUST report anyone they feel is in an unsafe environment for WHATEVER REASON. That report would likely be made to an authority such as APS which would open a case and visit, assessing the person's mental and physical status and ability to remain home safely.
Should this authority decide to make this a court case then it is the COURT that can demand either placement or in home care with guardianship of family or appointed Fiduciary of the state. That's how all this works.

None of us here can judge the EMS person's reason for making the report.
That will be assessed by those he/she reports to.

We are just hearing one side of the story here, and as we all know there are ALWAYS 3 sides to every story, your moms, the paramedics, and somewhere in the middle, the truth.
You list absolutely nothing in your profile about what health conditions your young mother has that warrants her walking with a walker or anything else, so there has to more to the story as to why(if in fact they did)the paramedic said what they did.
I visit with a woman who is 100 years old who lives by herself and uses a walker to get around her home, and if for some reason the paramedics had to come to her home, they would under no circumstances say that she was unfit to live by herself, unless there were signs of abuse or some kind of neglect.
So....like I said, we're only hearing yours and your moms side of the story. I can't help but wonder what the real truth is here.

Your Mom is awfully young to need a walker... what is her medical issue that has lead to her condition?

Is it possible the paramedic saw the inside of her home and it was "less than perfect"? Is she able to keep herself and home in livable condition? Is she a hoarder?

It certainly was wrong of the paramedic to scold and scare her but they are mandated reporters so something must have caused him to feel the need to tell her the things he did.

I would do exactly as BarbBrooklyn suggested. If there is a certifying or governing organization that accredits paramedics or ambulance services, I would go above their heads if they aren't responding to calls. Keep your attitude and tone calm and professional because you're basically on a fact-gathering mission to begin with.

I hope you can get to the bottom of what happened and why.

Please have your mother sign a HIPAA. form.

Send it and a letter of complaint to the ambulance service (send it certified mail).

Get to the bottom of this. You are hearing one side of a VERY disturbing story. You need to hear what prompted this threat (if it was made).

And get your mom to her doctor for and top to toe checkup, include an assessment of her anxiety. Extreme anxiety was the first symptom of my mother's cognitive issues.

The paramedic was out of line with his tone and tact. My guess is he was already having a stressful day doing a stressful job. Still, he shouldn't have spoken that way to your mom. Saying that, he is however a mandated reporter for elder neglect and abuse. If he believes mom is in need of more supervision and care, he is required to report to adult protection services. That agency is empowered to remove and place the elder in a nursing home if necessary. The police don't just come and take your mom away, APS must do an investigation first. So the first step would be a visit from a APS social worker. Then if social worker believes mom is in danger, she does have the authority to take action.

I'm wondering how many times has she called for an ambulance.

If someone calls over and over and they go there each time to find that it was nothing really wrong, they can. Because the ambulance service is being tied up for someone that doesn't need help.

But if it's the first time, that should never happened.

My x husbands neighbor was calling so many times. They finally committed her for 3 days.

But if that is not the case then that's horrible.

I would go to the emts and ask them , they may have a different story that you may not know, with that being said though, you will get more answers if you leave your anger at the door.