Is worsening narcissism really worsening dementia?

It's like trying to argue with a hurricane! You can stand on the beach and shake your fist in defiance and DROWN!

OR --- You can take cover, try and survive the "howling wind(bag)" and clean up the mess afterward.

Others are so right in that as people become more & more isolated - they center more & more on themselves. The only elderly I have seen that do not become wrapped up in their own little worlds are those who stay active in providing services for (ie helping) others (especially those who are active prayer warriors in their complexes, neighborhoods, etc). Unfortunately, most TV shows feed the narcissism and that is the only input many of them receive. I'm so encouraged by how thoughtful & concerned so many of you are! Thanks!

I am continually shocked how the people who do the most for their elderly parents are similarly, the same people that get treated the absolute worst. My mom has always been a narcissist, and manages to dismiss anything that anyone else has to deal with as somehow being less bad than some experience she has had. So in essence, there is never any empathy. You need to recover from your surgery and I applaud you and your husband for not getting "sucked in" to another useless argument with a person who is either too sick, too elderly, or too unable to evaluate any larger situation than their own. Keep disallowing yourselves to get sucked in.

Does anyone know what are the best resources for evaluating your senior parents' mental state and what legal options you might have to get them into a situation-like assisted-living-to prevent them from harming themselves--like not eating or becoming too depressed, etc???

My mother has narcissistic personality disorder, and dementia, the only difference in her behaviour these days is that the narcissistic traits are on display for everyone to see, because she's lost the ability to hide her contempt for me. This may be what's happening with your MIL
((hugs))

Ohjeez is the motherdaughter site where you found the list. I would like to have it when I take mom to the doctor next time. I picked her up for lunch today, even though she made it clear she was not hungry and because I am trying to get her to take the depression pill by the "half" since the full pill makes her too sleepy, that she couldnt keep her eyes open. She is giving the same trip, it is useless to take the depression pill because it is not going to make the things go away that she is depressed out. Tried as usual to discuss non important stuff, telling her about girls at work....as soon as I mentioned one girl was still wanting to move out of state where her son and daughter -in-live...she started being sarcastic...maybe they don't want her to move there, maybe they don't want to have anything to do with her like your brother. Then she started the same old "when I die I don't want you telling him ...if he can't come see m alive I don't want him here when I die". I told her this was not how I wanted to spend my lunch....I finally gave up and shut up and didn't say anything else the rest of the time. Yep, feel guilty every time I do something with my family or without her, but when I take her she still is miserable and makes everyone else that way. Back at work and can't concentrate on work......how am I going to keep dealing with this....Cant even talk to my husband anymore because he is so angry at her it just makes it worse.

ohjeezleweez -just read your recent post and am so glad you found the site "daughtersofnarcissisticmothers". I have found it so helpful, and validating. Yes, you tend to feel that you are crazy, uncaring etc. and yet the feedback you get from people other than your mother is so different. Growing up as a child of a narcissist is very difficult. I am glad you now have some insights into your husband's childhood., and also how to be a better case manager

To prevent new anger- detach and distance. To deal with old anger - deal with the hurts. I found writing them out was helpful. It is important to have your hurts validated, tio accept that the way you were treated was a bad as it felt, and still feels.It is also important to recognize that she is not a "sane" person but a person with a serious mental disease, and one that is not easily treated. I think my mother is depressed too, but she would not take meds for it either. Since antidepressants have helped mil in the past, could the doc give those meds under a different guise? Unfortunately my mother researches every med, and would find out quickly, and refuse them. It will not get easier. I wish you the best and prayers. ((((((hugs)))))) Joan

From my experience with my 100 yr old mother who has been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, and is narcissistic, I have to think that your mil has developed some dementia. I can't say that my mother's narcissism has worsened in time, though her paranoia has. She doesn't lose her temper any more often than she did when she was younger. She has never uttered a swear word, and, if she started, I would work to have her assessed for neurological disease.The comments about people getting more self centered, and being more focused on their own small world as they age, certainly ring true. Their, and in my case, as I am 75, my world does become smaller, and it is tempting to focus on the increasing limitations, aggravations, health issues that accompany aging. However, I have seen seniors who maintain an interest in a larger world until they die. An aunt, for example, who lived until she was 97, was up to date on world news, major sports etc, even though her vision was failing and she had other health issues. Her personality did not change. "They" say you die as you live, and I would add, in the absence of neurological disease, you age as you live.
ohjeezleweez - You are protecting yourself, which you need to. I have seen my mother become pretty agitated when the attention was off her and onto someone else, due to illness, holidays or whatever, but not to the point that she would exhibit uncharacteristic behaviours. It would be her normal behaviours somewhat exaggerated. Getting a narcissist evaluated in another thing, as they will resist and think that everyone else has the problem. To me, you all are doing the right things,, but that does not make it easy. Gettng her to an evaluation in the future sounds like a good idea.
(((((((lynmac))))))) I know you have been through a very rough time, and hear what you are saying. Having lived with narcissistic behaviours all my life, I think I have become more of a "Teflon" woman. It has taken many years to get there. The emotional stress certainly can become crippling. It is so important to look after you by drawing boundaries and emotionally detaching and distancing - important but not easy. Detaching, and distancing allows for healing from abusive behaviours, and prevents, or at least, decreases additional hurt. Allow yourself time and space to grieve your losses.
jessie -my mother dwells on events from years back, and works herself into a rage - but then she always has. She will not join into activities her ALF offers, and like yours, then complains that she is alone too much, when there is a wealth of socializing outside her door. I agree, you can't let it bother you too much.
Letting go of guilt when "attacked" by a narcissist is not easy, but very important for maintaining your wellbeing. ((((((((Hugs))))))) to everyone with this problem Joan

Thanks to all who answered. I still haven't talked to her yet. I did call her doctor's office and spoke to the MA and let them know about the behaviors that are concerning. I have been to the doctor with her before and I know he does not know. She can turn it off and on. I know she is ok right now because she has been sending me many emails of dogs peeing on pictures of Romney and other related Romney bashing, so I know that she at least has her sense of humor right now (if we were democrats, she would be sending us Obama bashing; this makes me chuckle).

I did go to a website mentioned on another post, I think it was daughters of narcissistic mothers. I read through all of it and printed out the 24 characteristics. She was everything on there to a T except for the physical abuse. It really was an eye opener. I showed it to my husband and he will read it tonight. I think it will help him. Even though it was about daughters, it applies to sons too. I can see some his behaviors and the way he is on some things are definitely a direct result of her mental/verbal abuse. I hadn't put two and two together thinking about how it was when he was little. She has always been this way. I know that does not seem earth shattering, but when you connect dots like that, it is an ah-ha moment. There were things in there that helped me out too; some things I have said or acted like and realize that it is hurtful to my kids. I think everyone is selfish sometimes but if you can recognize and improve, do it; and I will. The best thing about that website that helped was learning the identifying factors and then realizing it really is not you. It is very hard with her to not think you are not a crazy, unreasonable, horrible, uncaring person. Now I know I am not and neither is my husband or my kids.

I hope next time she goes to the doctor that they will do something (I know they can't fix narcissism, but can help with dementia). I remember years ago when she was in convalescence they gave her some antidepressants. It worked very well until she found out what they were and immediately refused to take them because there was no way she was depressed. I believe she definitely is, but she will never admit it. Funny though, she always says everyone else is depressed, but to her that means that they are crazy.

I know we can't change her. I expect the tide will go out again soon and then come crashing back in with her. I will continue to recover this month from my surgery and then I go back to work on October 1 to a new job, in Aging and Disabilities of all things. Reading through and through this website will make me a better case manager. It will help me understand more about family dynamics and issues with elderly care. It will help me with the MIL too. My goal is to get the anger out of me and help my husband get the anger out of him too. She gets us so riled up all the time we are just balls of stress, but it doesn't have to be this way and we will work through it, and it will continue to storm and calm, storm and calm.

Bless all of you and this website. I am so thankful I found it.

harrah, I agree so much with you. As they age, many people get tunnel vision, both in their driving and in their personal lives. I have seen some think of an injustice, dwell on it and turn it over in their minds until it generates absolute rage. I don't think it takes dementia as much as it does an obsessive way of thinking about things. I have a feeling that the best cure for this behavior is for an older person to stay engaged. However, many choose to sit in the house and look at the walls or out the window, then blame others for the choice. If other people's experience is similar to mine, parents may refuse all invitations to do anything, then get mad because no one takes them anywhere. It's a no win, so it's best to just let it not raise the blood pressure too much.

Your MIL may have any of a variety of issues. She may be forgetful and confused (dementia ?) frightened and lonely, (depressed?) A complete checkup would be helpful + some activity planning such as day care, adult ed classes, volunteer work, what ever might interest her and is appropriate for her level of functioning. . When she is angry I suggest you say, "I need to be careful of my own health right now. I do care about you. You seem upset, we'll talk about this when you are calm." and then walk away. Other family members need give her a similar, consistent answer. Being old doesn't necessarily mean being self centered --that theory verges on ageism.

"But now I just want to fight her"....this is something that you must not do.
Ignore her. It may enrage her even further, but my suggestion stands: Ignore her.
My heart goes out to your husband, her son, who seems to bear the brunt of her anger . Thank God she lives across the street and not in your house.
Take care in your post-surgery recovery./ Bless you.

My experience with elderly people in general is that their world gets smaller and smaller, and their concerns do as well. The circle closes in, until it's just them. I think of it as them going backwards, getting more and more babyish. There are no babies who aren't self-centered, and there are only rare old people who aren't self-centered as well.

What alarms me in my experiences is how their narcissistic behaviors bring out such a fierce wave of emotions in me. I believe what we have to deal with and focus on is not so much their behavior but our responses. I wish I could be more of a Teflon woman and let it slide right off, but it is difficult- especially in a caregiver's position when I am all ready dealing with guilt, stress, and so forth. Be strong for each other. The emotional distress can be crippling. Peace to you my friend.

Thank you for asking this question. My dad has always been a bit of an ass but in the last few years he has become so insanely selfish! It's driving us nuts! At first we thought it was because my mom died so we totally understood. But it has been three and half years and his behavior is so awful we can't use that as an excuse anymore. Is there dementia in her family? My dads mom died with it. Some of his sibling had it toward the end too. Is she forgetting things a lot? Simple things like how to turn on tv or her phone number? She is obviously angered easily - another sign especially with the unusual swearing. Anyway please just do what you are doing and take care of yourself and your family first and foremost. They really do become like children again. When you are well perhaps you and/or your hubby could go to doctor with her. In the mean time try and blow her behavior off. She is not the center of your world as much as she might like to be.

I agree with above two posts as saying something, or standing up for yourself really doesn't matter to people with a narcissistic personality with possibly dementia developing on top of it all. It is a stressful combination to deal with and often the only way to deal with them is to walk away, as your husband did. And you definitely need to recover and not take on any additional stress.

Having her evaluated by a physician would help - through my experiences, it was helpful to talk to the doctor on the phone first before the visit and discuss what is going on. Narcissistic elderly people can behave differently in a doctor's office as this is part of the disorder - and actually fool the doctor with how they can "turn it on and turn it off". And the doctor, unless previously informed, may not realize the extent of the problem. I learned to talk to the doctors ahead of time and it made a tremendous difference.

Hopefully, there will be a treatment for your MIL in the form of medication. This can take time by trial and error until a medication is found that works.

Meanwhile, since she lives across the street and is currently independent, you'll have the opportunity to be proactive as the situation will only get worse. Hugs to you and hope you are feeling better each day.

Interesting question connecting narcissism with dementia.
I don't have caregiving relationship per se with my sister, but she has always had the narcissist trend. So, I've read a lot of articles on narcissism. It is pandemic in this society.
I was very fortunate not to have a narcissist/dementia phase with my parents. They were truly remarkable patients. But, after they were gone, I did respite sitting for VNA, and found out that other patients were Not so remarkable, that other patients have "sickness talking" -- dwelling on their health problems and taking it out on others. What they really need is hobbies, books to read, productive things to do that takes their mind off their health problems. We're all going that way - we're all going to have aging lesser-"golden years". As Reader's Digest says, "Laughter is the best medicine."
Yeah Patti4Mom -- I often think "I need a Me to take care of Me one day." And, even if I had kids, there's no guarantees that kids will be familial "social security" care. (I say, if family is so disconnected, dysfunctional, uncaring, unloving -- then parents should exhibit Tough Love and kids should Not receive inheritance. Inheritance should be Earned - and caregiving, thru giving-back, is a good way to earn it. Parents do a lot for their kids, and kids shouldn't be so selfish to not give-back while they have the chance. After the parents are gone - and kids haven't given-back, that's when resentments for the rest of the kids' lives set in.)

The age-old dynamic of shut-in parent feeling sorry for themselves, and grown kids out selfishly having fun with their peers rather than with the parent/patient. The dynamic especially made worse by geographically distant family. If family dynamics are so bad for caregiving, the only option is outside caregivers, thru an agency, or independent, whether covered by insurance or not. Of course, then with strangers in the home, watch out for "employee theft". Another source of patient narcissism/dementia, real or imagined thefts.

We didn't have these problems when the average age of death was 65-70. Now that people living longer, and in pathetic health conditions & sub-quality of life, we see so much more of this.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Knowing that she is sick doesn't make it any easier detach and not take it personal. Changes happen with our parents and we have to adjust emotionally, too. I try not to take things personal from my Mom, but sometimes I am just disgusted. I try not to say anything because it really does not make a difference. Most of the time she is pleasant and talks all about herself. It gets very old, but I don't see her being around a lot longer. I know, this might not help but it is just what is happening with us. I live with her and I get out by going to the store almost every day. I have to get some fresh air. I have to see other people that are pleasant to me. Usually, that is other shoppers or the store clerks. Well, I just wonder who is going to take care of me if I live so long.

Using uncharacteristic swear words is another small sign of dementia. It would be good to have MIL evaluated. Some dementia symptoms can be treated.

But, really, the diagnosis isn't the most important element right now, is it? You need to figure out how to deal with this, and it seems to me you are doing it as well as possible. Hubby did the right thing by leaving. You are doing the right thing by letting everyone else deal with her while you are healing. You need to come first. I can understand the strong temptation to have it out with her, but you know from years of experience that it won't do any good. And it won't do any good whether this is a personality disorder or dementia or both. MIL is not a person who can be reasoned into good behavior.

You guys are doing great.