My mother did a quit claim deed to give her house to her 3 daughters 2 years ago. We are in Ohio. She was living with my husband and I since Jan. 2019 when my dad passed away. In May she did the quit claim deed and divided the house in 1/3rd to each of us daughters. We each rec'd about $50,000. My husband and I have been caring for her for those over 2 years and my 2 sisters have done little to nothing. Have not even seen her for over a year and only live 30 minutes from us. Mom's health has been failing terribly and has dementia. We are her full time caregiver's. We have provided her a home and everything. Will Medicaid come back on us and want the $50,000 we got from the sale of mom's house if she applies for Medicaid and goes into a nursing home? Which she should have been in for those 2 years. She was on hospice when she moved in with us in Jan. 2019, but within 2 months of her living with us, her health got so much "better" that they took her off of hospice. Yes, a double edged sword. She had had a heart attack in 2018. And in 2020 while living with us had to have her leg amputated due to circulation issues. Just need to know if the money my husband and I received from the quit claim deed Medicaid will come back and take even though we have been taking care of her and saved her money by not putting here in a nursing home. She is 87, by the way. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Of course, that means prosecution of your sisters; seems fair to me.
Please hire the best eldercare attorney possible. You need a tiger who can put the fear of the law into your idiot sisters...
It was the greedy niece posts that I think you’re referring to on AC. Mom w 2 daughters, out of state one was POA. Mom had $. Everything seemed just fine. Then mom fell, broke a hip & had classic ER 2 hospitalization 2 rehab 2 NH drama. Aunt POA in going thru moms papers found that niece had Grannie co-sign for loans including student loan$$$ which lil Missy defaulted on, had given niece $ for wedding plus other $ here & there. LSS 6 figures. Horrors. POA finds out that mom will run out of $ & will need to file for LTC Medicaid but will face transfer penalty on the Missy $. However if gran was the victim of a crime there would be no penalty. All transfer penalty $ involved the niece & only the niece. Aunt POA worked with APS to get the info needed to do “advantage on a vulnerable adult” so DA could file charges & law enforcement could do thier part. Mom had to be willing to sign the complaint on her niece & did. Aunt could show there was fraud in some loan documents. Niece got a fine & community service required. Medicaid had police report & court documents to show there was a crime that caused the transfers.
issues I see for this OP is that all 3 sisters are complicit. All got 50k. All 3 went along with QCD & documents the atty prepared. If mom was competent and cognitive at the time but made a decision that now backfires for Medicaid, that’s not a APS concern. APS needs to find undue influence on a vulnerable adult. All 3 Sisters are wearing black hats so to speak. It’s not like the solo greedy niece.
Mom will not be eligible for Medicaid until the penalty period is over. Igloo explained how the system works very well, please heed what she said.
You can Google the Medicaid look back for your area. This will give you lots of information about what you are dealing with. It has a 5 year look back to ensure that no assets were disposed of.
I am sorry that your family screwed your mom over. Sounds like a bunch of bottom feeders that will find out that karma is a biotch. Unfortunately, you and your husband are the ones that have to pay the price for their actions. Because you have your mom and you will be taking care of her until the penalty period is over.
If you have not applied for Medicaid, none of the penalty period starts until you do. So the last 28 months don't count.
They are going to look at how long she could have self paid had her home been sold legitimately and the money used for her care.
Definitely a conflict of interest that my sister's step daughter works for him. In fact, the "funny" part is that when I got mom another attorney to fight my sisters on the fact that the one has over $30,000 of mom's money in cash that dad asked her to hold for mom, when he had dementia, the original attorney is now representing my 2 sisters against mom. Found out that my sister had gone and got POA over mom and dad back in 2017 and never told anyone. Acted like she got it in 2018 after mom's heart attack. Of course, she no longer has POA as I do since she lives with us and they will not even call mom or come see her lol. Mom and I got APS involved and they involved the Sheriff's Dept. However, the prosecutor's office will not prosecute as when it was done was when Covid hit last year and they said they did not have the staff to do it and that we should pursue it via a civil case. Of which, mom does not have the funds to do. She had already spent $10,000 on a lawyer trying to get the $30,000 and we finally gave up as it was stressing mom out too much and it was not worth it. Hopefully my sister's will choke on the money they stole of mom's.
So my main question to anyone that know's Ohio medicaid laws is about the "Exempt Transfer" and if she would be or we would be exempt from giving the $50,000 we got from the sale of mom's house since she has lived with us for over 2 years and we have had the responsibility of housing and caring for her as she is disabled and elderly. According to things I have read, the Ohio lookback is 5 years and when calculating the amounts it is about $6500 per month that they use for the calculation for the months. At $50,000 divided by $6500 that would only less than 8 months. She has been with us for over 28 months that we have been providing her a home at our home and caring for her, etc. Hopefully what i am trying to say makes sense? Will we or that $50,000 we received be "exempted" and not need to be given or paid to Medicaid if we have to put her in a nursing home?
Again if it was sold under FMV, the State can place penalty based on the last tax assessor value of the property. The vibe I’ve gotten is a 10% difference is ok for lower FMV. Maybe 20% if you have photos to show significant issues with the majors (roof, foundation, electrical). Otherwise you need a licensed and registered appraisal with a seal to show why value is lower & dated close to date of Sale.
Im not sure if you could use the “caregiver exemption” route for Medicaid….. that exemption is for an heir that lives in the elders home and is thier full time caregiver usually 2+ years prior to the elders move into a NH and onto LTC Medicaid. The property which would be required to have MERP (estate recovery) attempt a recovery is exempt from MERP if the caregiver would inherit the home. MERP is an after death process as elders home remains their exempt asset while alive but become non exempt after death and subject to MERP.
For family caregivers who take in their elder, well most do it entirely out of a sense of familial responsibility and for free. Now your elder can do a caregiver contract and legitimately pay you from their income to care for them & that’s totally ok for Medicaid. Or they can pay you rent. They should pay for all their living expenses, like their groceries and a % of utilities. You can deduct mileage for all medical travel or you can bill them for mileage. All items elder law attorneys routinely draw up paperwork on. If you don’t have anything like this done, get something done to start this summer from her to you & your hubs that’s within Medicaid regulations.
You mention secretive stuff…. was house sale part of this?
Has the house been sold since mom sold it?
Did atty have mom change any beneficiaries on life insurance, bank accounts or set up a preneed for her?
just trying to figure out what the secret stuff might be……
Please realize Medicaid cannot make you or your Sisters each to repay the 50k ea gift. Mom will be the one that has to deal w this as she will be the one that applies for Medicaid in the future and it will be found to be her asset that the 3 $50k gifts came from, so she’s ineligible. IMO until your able to get a new atty and they work thru the issues, they see what kind of possible caregiver agreement she can legit do w you & hubs, your mom needs to stay w you & hubs as her caregiver and not open up the hornets nest that a LTC Medicaid application would mean. Maybe try to have her reevaluated for hospice again as that’s purely MediCARE.
If there was gross undue influence done to a vulnerable adult to force them to sell home and give house sale $ away, that’s something that might be taken up by APS; and then APS gets law enforcement involved. Y’all shared equally in the $, mom made a fair division & appeared cognitive and competent to do all this. Personally I don’t see elder exploitation for APS to get involved with. Plus as she lives with you, you’d be the first one APS looks at for undue influence.
So, your siblings, what is the probability that if mom needed $ from all the 3 of you to private pay $3,000-$4,000 each month for her NH, all of you would? You know your Sisters best….. would they pay $$$ for moms care as they benefitted from moms gifting? Would the Sissys be willing to pay a bigger % of moms NH costs to offset the past 2 years you & hubs cared for mom in your home?
Or do we stand a better chance of hell freezing over?
Atty. issues IMO will revolve around 2 things, 1 for Medicaid &1 for if the QCD & house sale was properly done:
- 1 Medicaid & moms “gifting”. Medicaid looks at where moms income (like her SSA $) & assets (home, land car) went to usually 5 yrs prior to date of her Medicaid application. If “gifting” (transfer of income or assets) happens w in the 5, a penalty can be placed on her application. Not u or your siblings but her. The house QCD is just part of “gifting” as I’m guessing as there’s probably also commingled household expenses as she lives with you since 2019. Amirite? QCD will cause a red flag on her application as property transfers are just a few keystrokes to find out about as it’s all in online databases…. Once flag placed will likely have caseworker take detailed look at how her assets & income have been spent. Medicaid does not expect mom to live on air or dependent on the kindness of strangers. But Medicaid will expect $ to be for her living costs and not underwriting your household.
House sale $ is pretty straightforward for Medicaid, state looks at sale price & places a transfer penalty based on # of days. Ohio LTC Medicaid will have a room&board day rate. So $150k home in state that pays $200 R&B = 750 DAYS ineligible due to penalty starting day she applies for LTC Medicaid.
Extra buttrash in all this that in order to apply for LTC Medicaid she has to already enter a NH & as Medicaid takes 3-5 mos to process her application, by the time penalty placed, mom could have 3-5 mo NH bill. NH will get a CC of penalty & will expect mom, you or whichever family member they can get to to private pay for mom or mom gets a 30 Day notice (to move). If mom moves out, that bill will still exist and NH will turn it over to collections.
- 2 QCD & sale issues. Did mom actually correctly do it? There was no secured lending on property at the time of the QCD, right?
Was property via QCD transferred to ea child & recorded at courthouse in 2019; so each sold your share to new buyer? OR was it mom signing the Act of Sale and then she divvied her $ x 3? Its “gifting” for Medicaid either way but could have clear title issues for the buyer IMO.
Was it sold at FMV (fair market value)? Sold “arms length” so w Realtor & MLS listing? Not sold to relative or neighbor at less than assessor value? Medicaid will want info to determine if the gifting is actually more $ than just Sale $. Like if house had tax assessor value of $215k but had roof & other issues which you think is 40k but a nephew wants place, he’s Grans favorite and he has the $, so y’all sell for $150k…. unless mom has some sort of documentation from 2019 that house is verifiable at 150k, the gifting will be set at 215k not 150k. Dealing with snafus along these lines are ime what a Real Estate atty will do. & why I think one may be needed in your moms situation.
BCmama, I get it, none of us had Medicaid compliance on our radar ages ago when financial things were done. But to deal with them now won’t be a DIY. Mom will need legal that understands Medicaid to provide options to possibly get her eligible if you just know that she’s going to need care in a facility in her future & within 5 yr lookback.
"We used an attorney but he gave us incorrect information. He was an attorney my sister's step daughter worked for and I found out later there was some behind the scenes secretive stuff and all going on. I kick myself in the butt for trusting her and them. Long story."
Lots of issues here.
1. Did you file a grievance with the state bar against this attorney? And/or did you check his/her reputation either before or after retaining him/her? Does the "secretive stuff" rise to the issue of a misdemeanor or felony, or breach of professionalism by the attorney?
2. Were funds expended for what might be erroneous advice? Did you ask for, or were any funds refunded?
3. Do you have anything in writing supporting your conclusions, i.e., advice from the attorney on how to proceed? This could be used as documentation in any claim you pursue against him.
4. Something else troubles me: that this attorney employed your sister's step-daughter. I can't claim for certain that this might have been a conflict of interest on your sister's part, but that was my first thought.
5. Another troubling issue: A quit claim deed is normally not the standard for transferring title and vested interests; a warranty deed is. And "quit claiming" does not provide a warranted title or vested interest transfer; it's more akin to releasing or giving an interest than it is a conveyance.
Technical, yes, but it could be a factor in the Medicaid review. Since Medicaid is not a topic on which I have any expertise, I'll avoid speculating any further, other than to reiterate my query why an attorney would choose this method of alleged conveyance.
Also, deeds typically had an identifying provision of "prepared by", which would state the attorney's name. Is this on the quit claim deed? I ask b/c it documents some level of involvement in real estate and the estate processing issues. It may be part of a paper trail that might be necessary if action such as bar association peer review is involved (i.e., the advice for your mother to execute a quit claim vs. warranty deed.)
6. Was a title search done before execution and recording of the QCD? This would document whether there were any other encumbrances against the property. If by chance there were, they're "precedent" to the QCD in terms of priority, and could still be outstanding and valid, and higher in priority to the claims of you and your siblings.
7. What exactly is this attorney's expertise? Check his/her website; there's typically a list of practice areas in which the attorney is knowledgeable (or allegedly knowledgeable).
Igloo is the Medicaid expert here; perhaps she'll see your thread and offer an opinion on the validity of these transfers in terms of vested interest transfers.
And b/c of the QCD as opposed to warranty deed, the issue of any prior encumbrances, your questions on Medicaid's potential answer might not be answerable at this time.
They are absolute crap unless in a very narrow situation….. like you get the home in your divorce decree and done under judges order as part of the decree. That QCD you can take to a title co and they can issue whatever title insurance needed as there’s a verifiable legal action. Otherwise the QCD just has way too much leeway for conjecture.
My experience is if there is a QCD, it’s a lot like selling property acquired via a tax sale deed. You might be getting property all nice and with a clear clean title but there is NO GUARANTEE. It’s exactas you said, only a Warranty Deed (WD) provides the guarantee. Nowadays decent lenders, like a bank or a mortgage co., will require WD in order to lend the $. They won’t do a securitization on a QCD title as no guarantee. To get around the QCD / no WD, you might can do a Quiet Title Action. Quiet isn’t expensive but it’s specialty RE atty work and it takes t…i….m….e; like maybe add 6-8 months onto the actual Act of Sale signing as atty has to do series of filing in paper of record to obstensibly call out to find “owners” and if none, it then “quiets” the deed & removes possibility of someone from the past having a claim to the property which clouds the title, I’ve done tax sales and the atty I used mainly does site selection work for developers (like he finds owners / heirs / egress / ROW issues involved in huge tracts) with Quiet on the side. 1-2k plus newspaper & filing fees. That it takes months kills most sales, so it’s not gonna be the usual home sale if Quiet is needed.
Consider filing an action against original attorney.
Did you consult a Medicaid -experienced eldercare attorney before the transfer?
If not, please do so now.