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I thought having my father-in-law with us was the kind and caring thing to do. I obviously had no idea what I was walking into. My husband has POA, etc. I make the meals, clean, appointments, care for pets, etc. My SIL is angry that about dad’s money. Apparently we should have been keeping track of every penny that comes out of his money, every medical decision made, etc. Though I already feel exhausted, I need to find what the legal requirements are and make sure I have everything documented, which sounds time consuming. I am thinking having a kind heart is sheer stupidity. Any links to what a POA and caregiver must legally document and provide to the non-POA and non-caregiver sibling will be greatly appreciated. Thank you to each of you.

I don’t think it’s a requirement to keep an accounting to non poa sibling . Just if FIL getting govt $$$ then keep good records on what his $$$ spent on per month. That’s to show if Audited. You’re also taking him into your home...rent free? Maybe she wants to be poa & health proxy instead? Let FIL stay with her a week...see how she likes it. Hugs 🤗
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utahpilot2 Jun 26, 2020
Thanks, CaregiverL.
We won’t let her care for dad. Her health isn’t good enough.
His only income is SS. Would they audit on that?
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Worried--

I am talking about AFTER FIL's death when my Dh, the EXECUTOR was allowed to be paid $20 per hour for every hour HE spent working on the estate. That had nothing to do with POA, which I believe, is moot upon the death of the person for whom you had POA.

Our lawyer, as part of our trust, had us state that our executrix would receive the
'going rate' for her work on our behalf when we're gone.

FIL's trust was drawn up by the same atty.

Dh not taking his 'portion' was something that has angered my attorney son for 17 years.
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worriedinCali Jun 24, 2020
Midkid why are you addressing this to me? I said absolutely nothing in response to your earlier reply. All I did was Point out misinformation by someone else.....
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This is how I handled it. I understand spreadsheets, but for me its easier just to write everything down.

First, does the POA allow for your husband to be paid, if not then he can't deduct for time spent doing things as a POA. If you are charging FIL rent, he has to be able to agree to that in writing. It will come to bite you in the A _ _ if he ever needs Medicaid if there is not a contract.

In my situation Mom still had her house so her SS was going for its upkeep. Her bank statement reflected how her money was spent. SS coming in, bills going out. She had a small pension ( that was a check, not direct deposited) I used for her personal things. Her toiletries, Depends, clothes, copays on doctors bills and prescriptions, ect. I took an extra check register I had and put the pension amount in (deposit) and then showed the purchases (withdrawal). I kept envelopes for each month of all the receipts where I used this money. Now if FILs SS and/or pension are direct deposited you could still use the register and once a month reimburse yourself for things you purchased for him. If he has money, spend it on him. Don't use ur own money unless necessary.

Husbands responsibility as a POA. He is your FILs representative meaning if FIL is no longer competent to handle his affairs, your husband steps in. He pays his Dads bills with Dads money. He does not use his/your money to pay Dads debts. A POA usually gives the one assigned the right to sell the house, car, ect but that money needs to be put aside for Dads future care. ( house and car need to be sold at market value if Medicaid is in the future). In no way is a POA allowed to use the principles money for their own gain. A POA is not required to physically take care of the principle. Their responsibility is to make sure the person is safe, warm, fed and housed. If that means an AL or LTC then so be it. Using the principles money. If and when that runs out, then Medicaid can be applied for. The POA is not responsible for the cost of care.

Now responsibility to siblings or family members regarding how the money is spent...a POA is not obligated to give that info. He is the principles representative and as such not suppose to give out financial or medical info. With me, I kept one brother in the loop of decisions I made or I needed some advise. My other brother just was "you handle it". Since my Mom was open about her finances and medical, so I chose to be as her POA. But, if she had been a private person, then I would not have divulged any financial or medical to my siblings. I would not have done what Geaton did, emailing everyday. But if SIL would like to be kept informed, an email once a week maybe. But it wouldn't be detailed. It maybe like "Mom seems to have trouble walking this week. Will be bringing it to her doctor's attention during next weeks visit". Or " hired an aide to bathe Mom. Just getting too much for me". But then Geaton's family may liked that, not my DHs SILs. One of them would have said not to bother, she trusts us and is very aware of what it takes to care for someone. The other would have been the opposite in her thinking, she would have looked at it as complaining and she really didn't want to hear about the everyday struggles.

Husband needs to read his POAs. Will give him some insight.
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worriedinCali Jun 23, 2020
Incorrect about the POA needing to say that the husband can be paid. Under Utah state law unless the POA document states otherwise (as in, unless it states the POA can’t be compensated in any way) the POA can reimburse their expenses incurred while performing their duties AND be reasonably compensated as well.
https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title75/Chapter9/C75-9_2016051020160510.pdf
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No good deed goes unpunished, right? :(

Many years ago when my son was in his very early 20's, he had what I call a 'hero complex' where he just HAD to save everybody he possibly could. He'd be taking in homeless people, all sorts of dangerous & unwise things. Until one day, he realized that he couldn't save the world. Or even one person, in reality.

Now that you know what care giving is really all about, why not tell your angry SIL it's HER turn to care for FIL now? And then YOU can ask HER for a detailed expense report of every penny SHE spends for his care! I love that idea!

If she's not willing to belly up to the bar, then it may be time to look into Assisted Living for pop. My mother has been in an ALF since 2014 and she's beautifully cared for by a staff of people who love her and think she's the bees knees.

Wishing you the best of luck
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utahpilot2 Jun 26, 2020
Thanks, lealonnie1, for sharing.
My FIL doesn’t like people, so he will stay with us until we can no longer care for him.
My SIL isn’t healthy enough to care for him.
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A POA is required to handle the financial situation just like the person that they represent. If dad shared his financial situation with your SIL then it is okay for your husband to share, if he didn't then your husband would be violating his fiduciary responsibilities to share. People think it will help you keep the peace to share, maybe so, but it is illegal to do so if the person would not have done so themselves.

POAs are intended to make sure that the person that is being represented has their wishes followed and to be protected from financial fraud by ensuring that not just anyone has access to information. Among other things.

It is a good idea, especially since you have an interfering SIL, to keep records of how his money is used. To simplify the record keeping you can do a couple of things, you can use a credit card and make notes as needed on the statement, you can keep a journal that has the date, amount and item(s) simply listed. You should also have a written agreement about dad's share of costs for living in your home. If it is handled that way you will not have to claim it as income as he is paying his way. And he should be paying his way, you guys aren't there to protect anyone's inheritance.

Please read the POA and go to your states attorney general website and read what the specific laws state. This will help you understand what you need to do and how to protect your husband from doing something that could get him in trouble.

I would also find out how much help he can afford to pay for and get someone in that can take some of the load off of you. Hire a housekeeper or an aid to sit with him so you can get away from the house.

As you have seen, the siblings doing the least will complain the loudest. You can always tell her that you will happily move him into her house if she really wants to be involved, but criticizing what you all are doing will not be tolerated. When she starts in hang up or walk away. You can block her number if she harasses you. You do not have to dance to her tune when you are the one doing the hands on caregiving for her dad.

If your husband doesn't have your back you can let him handle every thing dad until he wakes up and protects you from his sister.
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utahpilot2 Jun 26, 2020
Isthisrealyreal — love your handle!

I hadn’t thought of the fact that we don’t have the authority to tell her about dad’s finances!! For certain, dad thinks it is none of her business. He wouldn’t even give my husband a copy of his will, though husband is executor, until his health scare 2 years ago.

We don’t charge him for being here. He does pay for his food, medicine, clothes, dog food and medicine, etc.

Reading the PIA carefully is a great idea.

My FIL doesn’t like people. So housekeeper, etc., not feasible.

thanks!
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How much money are you talking about?   If fee for caregiving not agreed to upfront, it can get tricky with Medicaid (they can consider a gift).
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utahpilot2 Jun 26, 2020
FloridaDD, less than $100,00

I don’t get any monitory reimbursement for caring for FIL. Just the pleasure of his company and helping him.

He doesn’t get Medicaid.
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No sane person WOULD ever become a caregiver. Sometimes, it's forced upon them and sometimes they choose care. Sanity doesn't play a role in caregiving. Compassion, morality, love of others does. That's why you chose to care for your FIL. But now, reality kicks in!

Being a POA doesn't require you to provide any information to others, it's your choice. It does, however, require you to make monetary decisions in his best interests. To prove that any expenses are in his interests, you should keep receipts for anything that you spend for his benefit, this would be your defense. If, by chance, there's no receipt involved, document your reasoning. Read the POA document for your specific responsibilities.

Also, your FIL should have a living will and a DNR document completed so the HCPOA (who is probably your husband) can make the appropriate healthcare decisions in accordance with your FIL wishes.
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utahpilot2 Jun 26, 2020
Thank you, sjplegacy 🌸
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Utahpilot (do you really live in Utah? I do!)

I'm not super sure of this, but POA's are only enforced in Utah if you are considered to be not of sound mind.

Nevertheless--keeping a spreadsheet of what you spend and what you do for FIL couldn't HURT and would 'prove' any claims by SIL that you are not doing your job. And yes, I'd add in meals taken to him, cleaning done, etc. Drown SIL in details and tons of paperwork. I assume she's worried about her inheritance?

Yeah, I did CG for my FIL for the last 6 months of his life, flipped his condo after he passed so it could be sold AND took care of a rental home he had let go--- vacant-- and I was told by BIL that I could not take a penny for my work. But he sold both properties and took the 3% commission. Ugh...families. DH wouldn't pay me either, didn't want any conflict. Oh well. BIL demanded to see receits and all evidence that I wasn't skimming the inheritance. He fought even the LAW that allows for executors to take $20 an hour for their time. DH didn't charge for his hundreds of hours of work.

Talking to an eldercare attorney wouldn't go amiss.

In families where everyone agrees on things, this wouldn't even be an issue. Esp with an in law.

Good Luck. You sure aren't alone in this family dynamic. IMHO, inlaws don't get to have a 'voice' in how things run unless they are asked.
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utahpilot2 Jun 26, 2020
Hi Midkid58!
yes, I do live in Utah. 😊

We had hoped getting POA and his will updated would be enough legally.

I doubt my husband will want to get a lawyer.

I am trying to do what Geaton777 suggested and keep a log of what I do. Glad she doesn’t think I need to include the hours I spend. I am to lazy to be too detailed. And I will keep receipts when I use his money for his expenses.

Thanks.
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Every state's laws could differ from each other regarding PoA issues. Yes, best for husband to see an elder law attorney to straighten things out. If husband if financial PoA he is not obligated to release any info regarding those transactions, but siblings can become suspicious/angry if he isn't transparent. I think he should be. But if he hasn't been doing things correctly, this needs to be remedied asap. When I was managing my in-laws care I sent out an email update for every little thing I did every day. This is so I was beyond reproach and they could never say, "I didn't know". I requested the siblings' input on every decision and didn't do anything until I had a clear direction and total consensus. I/we didn't have to do it this way, but it certainly made things a lot smoother. One sib lived out of state. When you record everything you do for someone you see how it adds up. The siblings were very appreciative because they got a sense of how much work it was. Not a long email, just an "update" with bulleted points (Made med. appt for Dad; took him here; did this or that; spoke to SW about blah blah who suggested blah blah, etc). For things we wanted input on, the subject line would read: Need input today by 3pm. For more urgent things we would text. All decisions were in writing for posterity. Also, I do agree your FIL should be paying you both but this requires a contract. Good luck!
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utahpilot2 Jun 23, 2020
Thank you, Geaton777.
when you say “record everything you do for someone”, how specific do you get? I make him 3 meals meals a day and take it to him (he lives in a trailer next to our home, like 20 feet away), rain, shine, or high wind. I feed his dogs, clean up after them, every day. Do I include that too?

My husband is so mad at his sister he doesn’t want me communicating with her.

Is keeping a log sufficient?
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Your husband has POA...no one can do anything. You could suggest to HIM to see an attorney
To make sure all I's are dottedand T's are crossed. No care facilities in your area? Your husband should be paying you!
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utahpilot2 Jun 23, 2020
Thanks, Fliwerhouse1952.

From what I have read, a POA has to account for everything. Is that not so?

Kind heart got in the way of putting dad into care facility and continues to keep him in our care.

Husband pay me?...yah, that’s not going to happen.
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