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I hope someone can advise me. I have an elderly, childless, unmarried aunt who does live independently but has mental concerns akin to schizophrenia or bipolar and has already suffered several falls (with injury at times). I checked in on her for many years and I suffered a lot of verbal abuse from her. I put up with it because I figured it was better to stay "in the loop" with her in case I ended up responsible for her and there were times when I was the only family member she would talk to because she was mad at everyone else. Her relationships tend to suffer rather drastic ups and downs and she herself is 99% of the reason for that! She eventually stopped speaking to me after I made some unpopular decisions regarding another elderly family member's care. This has been several years. I believe she had (years ago) named me as her decisionmaker, but I never saw any papers to prove that. With her mental health history, family historically never knew what to believe as it seemed to be a 50/50 shot at anything she said being true. I am concerned that I will be asked to (forced to?) provide care or act as a decision maker. It's been years since I've been involved with her and I no longer feel like I know much about her health or affairs anymore. I don't know that a reconciliation will ever happen and I am not actively pursuing that. She is a very abusive person and I still need to recover from many years of her. I honestly could not see myself stepping in after all that's happened and I don't think she would let me near her anyway - which I believe is her right. Can family be mandated in a case like this if no one steps forward? I am probably her closest living relative who is healthy enough to fill a caregiving role. Would the courts appoint a case manager in a situation like this?

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First, a person can assign a POA and the person assigned knows nothing about it. There are posts on this forum where it has happened. I was there when my Mom assigned me. It was witnessed and notarized and I signed nothing. You can turn a POA down. No one can be forced to be


a POA.

If the time comes and you get that phone call, refuse to come. Tell them that Aunt is estranged. That you are not willing to take on her care or be involved. That the state will need to become her guardian since she has no family of her own. Just because she is related, does not make u automatically responsible. Don't allow them to tell u otherwise.
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You can’t be forced to care for your aunt.
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Mysteryshopper Jan 2020
Thank you. This has been a rough road and I am concerned about what the future holds for her. She seems to have really isolated herself.
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If you are contacted by a hospital or rehab unit either informing you of developments (e.g. admission, illness, injury) or looking to discharge your aunt, this is what you say.

That you have not been in contact with your aunt for [however many years] and have absolutely no information about her circumstances; and that it is not in her best interests for you to be her decision-maker because she has never been prepared to give you the necessary information or authority to act for her. You regret that you are unable to assist, but feel strongly that she will be better represented by professionals who know the system and have the authority.

You had better also decide in advance whether you want to be kept informed or not.

Your post makes me sad. Understandably, considering how many times she's bitten you, you're reluctant to go anywhere near her; but you've become so focused on your anxiety that you might be forced to (nobody can force you to) that you've rather lost sight of *her*.

Supposing that you were safely out of the way and never had to be within reach or earshot of her: what would you want for her?

Difficult, unattractive, challenging, even abusive people are still people. You probably still know more about this lady's preferences and habits and wavelength than anybody else does. Don't you think your input into her care plan would be helpful to her and to anyone responsible for her support?
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Mysteryshopper May 2020
Good questions, so I think I'll brainstorm. I think what I'd want for her would be some kind of emotional peace and clarity of thought because I don't think she's really ever had either one - going back to childhood. I believe she's very fearful of others in many ways but she exhibits that emotion in attempts to isolate and control those who care. I think a lot of her abuse of me was fear that I'd leave so she tried to undermine my self esteem to believe that no one else loved me. She holds an advanced degree, but I think she finds the world to be a confusing place and this comes out as anger towards others and further attempts to control things and people. I don't want anything bad to happen to her and she deserves to be safe and getting appropriate care by people who have evaluated and observed her. I agree with you that I probably have info that would be helpful in terms of her general condition and history. I'd be happy to provide that information to a guardian or caseworker if it could be helpful in some small way. There would need to be clear limits and expectations on my involvement at the point where an exchange of information like that would take place. And, I'd need to be clear that I would not know current meds, financial information, health screenings, etc as we are not in recent contact. I'm not clear who her doctors are, but I could probably direct someone to the hospital system she uses and maybe save them some steps.
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Ditto to WorriedinCali. No one can force you. You are not legally responsible nor morally obligated. She had her entire life as a functioning adult to plan for this eventuality. She could not have created legal PoA naming you without you signing it and it being notarized by witnesses AND you getting an original copy, which you would definitely need in order to act in this capacity. And even if this WAS the case, you could resign as PoA for any or no reason. If you are concerned for her wellbeing for good and provable reasons, you can report her to her county's Adult Protective Services to get her on their radar. They can gain legal guardianship over her and she will be protected, safe and cared for by the county.
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Mysteryshopper Jan 2020
Thank you so much. I never signed anything and I don't have copies of anything pertaining to her. You're right - such documents should have been provided to me (if such documents even exist). In terms of APS, I wouldn't really have an ironclad "reason" to call them at this time as I'm not close to her situation anymore. BUT, should something arise which ends up on my radar somehow, I will speak up. My fear is that she will end up at a hospital somewhere (for psych or otherwise) and the hospital will track me down as next of kin or something like that if there is no designated POA. I need to be ready for a "your aunt's in the ER and you need to get here now" phone call and brace myself on what to do, what not to do, what I'm legally/ethically bound to do, and what's best overall.
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You have nothing to worry about. There is no law that says you need to care for a relative.

The only way you could be contacted is if Aunt remembers your number. And if you are contacted just say your sorry but you can't take on the responsibility of her care. Not sure where the State guardian's come from. But someone will be assigned to ur Aunt. Please don't worry about this. Just say sorry no and hang up if it happens. Then block any calls. Really, not just because of your history with this Aunt but because you really don't want that responsibility.
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Mysteryshopper May 2020
Thanks. There's been no contact in several years, but I do hear things through the grapevine. She is still independent at this time, but I'm not entirely sure how she's managing that - based on what I had dealt with and was aware of. History with her is bad and behavior had been progressively getting worse while we were still in contact. She's very angry/demanding and has a long history of using people and throwing them out like trash. And, of course, it's NEVER her fault. Mental health concerns of hers date back to before I was even born. Others have tried to help her over many years and I was the last one still trying to help. When I woke up one morning a while back and realized I really didn't care about myself or anything at all anymore, I knew something had to change. Much better now, but can't go back to that.
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MS, when my stepFIL became a ward of the county, Lutheran Social Services of MN (a non-profit organization) was assigned as his guardian. We were able to communicate information about my stepFIL's preferences in food, music, entertainment, etc. to them. We were not in control of or privy to any of his housing decisions, medical care or finances. We were able to visit him without any interference.
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Mysteryshopper May 2020
This is helpful. I'm encouraged to hear that there were still open communication lines between the guardian and your family. I would be open to providing information and/or family background to a guardian - for whatever purposes it might be useful to enhance the situation or shed light. I would personally not be open to visits (unless the circumstances changed drastically), but I'm glad that you were able to visit stepFIL and that you always knew where he was. Did you ever feel judged by others that your loved one had a guardian instead of a family member? Just wondering about that part as that would bother me a great deal to be asked or questioned on that sensitive issue.
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No one can force you to care for your aunt. If you think she needs help, place a call to APS and report her as a vulnerable elder and let them handle her. Do not try to take care of her, you know she is toxic to you!!
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Mysteryshopper Jan 2020
I think she's pretty much at baseline for now in spite of the falls and psych issues, but I fear a decline is coming and I worry about how that will play out in real life. She was already having delusions when she still had me in her life. She also lied constantly. She would sometimes drop out of sight for months at a time - after a while, no one even worried anymore. You're right - she's toxic. Thanks for acknowledging that. It helps to hear someone else say it! Other family members refuse to discuss any of this. I fear that there may not be any plan whatsoever in place for my aunt. APS may be the best option when something specific and reportable occurs.
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Mysteryshopper - I had a distant relative that was elderly, childless and widowed. She developed dementia and ended up in the hospital. I don't know who brought her or maybe a neighbor called 911. From there, it was determined that she couldn't go back home living alone, so off she went to a nursing home. She became a ward of the state.

Not to worry, you are not responsible for your aunt's care,
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Mysteryshopper May 2020
Thank you for this information. My hope for her is that someone (anyone?) is her POA and maybe I just don't know about it. However, I was quite involved with her for a long period of time and I'm unaware of anyone in her life would be able and/or willing to serve in that capacity. Then there's the cleaning out of her current living quarters (similar to an episode of Hoarders the last time I saw her place), redirecting her mail, and ALL that's involved with caregiving and/or placing someone. Even though she abused my concern and kindness (and the abuse was escalating), I was still willing to serve her in that way. And while I'm still concerned about her and always will be, I can't be involved anymore. Thank you for the reply. It's helpful.
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Mystery, your path is pretty clear.

Hospital may call and say "we have your aunt here. She is ready for discharge. Someone from her family must come and pick her up".

Your response could be "I have not been in touch with my aunt for x years. I'm glad to hear she is being released. What is your plan for a safe discharge".

[Hospital] She needs 24/7 care,. Family must provide it.

You..." I need to work full time in order to support myself. I cannot possibly care for her

(Hospital) oh don't worry, we will get you lots of help (don't fall for this).

You: And if I can't provide care for her?

(Hospital) [ominously]..she will become a ward of the state and you will lose ALL control.

(You) that's sounds like just what needs to happen. Please give the court appointed guardian my phone number so that I can visit.
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Mysteryshopper May 2020
Thanks for this. Yes, that's pretty much the conversation I'm dreading. I plan to follow your script as I'm sure hospital will try all arm-twisting they can and I need to be aware of what to expect. You're right they will try to scare me with the ward of the state stuff and they will try to provide (false) hope by telling me they will get home care to help me. I know the home care thing is an out and out lie, but people do fall for it in the moment when the pressure is on. It's presented that hours and hours of high quality care will be provided but it only ends up being limited hours and quality is inconsistent and caregiver has no recourse as to getting what was promised. Then what? That's when reality sets in and family is stuck indefinitely when that was not supposed to be the case. Our elder care system seems to be based on the hope that things will work out and someone will come forward to assume responsibility so that the hospital/rehab doesn't have to care and they can close out that file. No one cares about the person getting dumped on or whether that person truly can provide the needed care. As long as the patient gets picked up from the hospital/rehab. It doesn't seem like there is enough for elders or for families that's really concrete or a clearer path to follow in terms of what to do. And when it's a dysfunctional relationship, it just opens old wounds for the person providing care who is now trying again to do the right thing in an difficult dynamic for an impossible person.
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Sojourner69,

Yes, we are suppose to be of service but that doesn't mean we need to take total care of someone. My Dads family was close, but I was not raised where my parents "expected" me to care for them. They never made me feel I was to be responsible for an Aunt or a sibling. TG, I never had to make that decision because they all had/have families of their own. Now being there for them, like running errands, taking them to appts, etc. I have and will do that but I have learned to set boundries.

And that is what needs to be done in MSs situation. She needs to set boundries. Government agencies will try to put the responsibility of someones care on someone else to save them time and trouble. Its hard enough caring for someone but then ad mental illness, makes it impossible. MS has dealt with this Aunt. The State as guardian will get the Aunt help faster than MSs could. At 70, I would not welcome that stress. I have done my caregiving. And service, done that and have been taking advantage of. I no longer volunteer. If asked, I will do.

One thing I have learned in life, is the only one you can depend on is yourself. Not that my girls won't be there for me, but they are single and need to work and have families. I need to care for myself. Realize that a time may come where I can't stay in my home. Realize that I might need help and hire it or go into an AL. I want to make my daughters lives as easy as possible. I want them to visit because they want to not because "oh my god I have to do this and that for Mom and she could so easily have gone to an AL and that would have been done for her".
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Mysteryshopper May 2020
Other people's expectations are scary sometimes. The problem is that most don't think they are truly asking for much - but they are! I'm still not at peace with the fact that my relationship with my aunt was based on her trying to groom me to look after her until she dies. She hates all care facilities with a passion and is adamantly opposed to living in one for any reason. I don't know all of her reasons for those feelings, but she is certainly entitled to her opinion - even if she won't explain it. I think she viewed me as a way to avoid a nursing home and rationalized that I could be convinced to provide care indefinitely so she could remain at her home. Boundaries are so important because, you're right, agencies will try to shift responsibility to a family member so they don't have to deal with it themselves - even though an agency can get the help better and faster than any family member ever could.
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