What words and phrases have you found helpful in getting your parent to cooperate? Today we talk with FIL about his $$$burn rate$$$.

Yikes, I can't imagine trying to reason with this old man. But since he's not competent to handle his financial affairs, I do think the POA must force the issue (in a loving manner) to preserve the money he'll need in the coming years. 

I don't envy what you're facing. Do let us know how you decide to handle this.

Good luck!!

You may want to mention FIL's increased anxiety and depression to his dr, if you haven't already. Perhaps a little higher dose of his anxiety meds would help put him in a better frame of mind to discuss and anticipate the (hopefully) impending move.

Nydil, my SIL is from Argentina; her dad was originally from Spain. Dad was a CPA and my SIL has an MBA.

Her dad deferred to her older brother and my SIL pushed back HARD.

I think your DH needs to push back. You can encourage him by telling him that he should tell his dad that you won't put up with this.

This old school stuff should not be pussy- footed around.

"We're in America, Dad. These Amerian women do'nt do it this way" I'll have to walk away from you".

NYDIL, I told my dad that he obviously doesn't trust me, as he fights every decision, all input, basically everything I am involved in, so I think that he needs to find someone that can do the job that he trusts. He couldn't believe that I told him to essentially stick that POA on anyone besides me. He actually apologized and begged me to keep doing it. He knows in his heart that he is always considered in any decision and his best interests are 1st and foremost. I also tried to give him his wants, not always possible, but I made the effort. He knew all this and decided that I was the best option since I put it that way. Sometimes we just need to tell someone that we are done with the status quo and they are in control to do as they please, except jerk us around anymore.

Maybe dear hubby approaching him with the reality that he may end up on Medicaid, in a facility that is not within his control or yours. Since he doesn't seem to believe that you all are acting in his best interest, it might be time to high a professional that he can tell them exactly what he wants done, how and when and just deal with the consequences of running out of money. Dealing with someone who doesn't care, it is only a paycheck to them, so dad, you can be as determined and stubborn as you want, it is your life after all.

I saw that my dad just wanted to be in control, no matter how insane that control is. He doesn't believe that he has dementia so in his reality he is making good choices and decisions, scary!!

NYDIL; Is there a cultural component to this all? In other words, do DH and FIL come from a culture with lots of reverence for older adults?

NY, I'm sorry you're in this frustrating situation. I think everyone's advice has been great, and just want to encourage you to make the necessary move in spite of FIL's protests. Chances are he'll adjust, especially being in the same facility, with the same caregivers, daily routines, and his familiar furnishings.  

My sister and I located a lovely, but much less expensive IL for our parents when they were around 90, after their current facility had a 9% rate increase one year. I knew their savings wouldn't be sufficient to cover expenses for an additional ten years (both of them had parents who had lived well into their 90s.)

In our case, we arranged the moving van for first thing in the morning. We had parents stay at sister's house while my brother and I arranged everything at their new apartment. Clothes were hung in the closets, toothbrushes, towels, and toiletries in place in the bathroom, pictures hung, lamps plugged in, bed made, dishes in cupboards, coffee maker on counter, etc.  

We didn't get everything unpacked that day (I returned the following days to finish emptying boxes and restock the frig.) But our parents walked into a very attractive, familiar-looking apartment that evening. 

Our parents adjusted very well, (although neither had more than MCI at the time.) They and we kids were greatly relieved to no longer worry about their money running out. And their savings did make it (though just barely!) until Mom died at age 99.

Hubby's POA is very broad. FIL has no one else to manage his life. None of his other sons would ever step up and do the work that my husband does and FIL knows that's true. At our meeting earlier this week, I told FIL directly that his other sons do less than the bare minimum and he's lucky to get a call from them once a week at best.

Had another unpleasant conversation with my husband about his dad. A one-bedroom just became available and would save $$$thousands$$$. I feel like a rancher prodding cattle just trying to get hubby to make an appointment with the resident director to show FIL the apartment. I went in to see it when they were painting it and it's next to the elevators, which is perfect for FIL.

If FIL+hubby miss this opportunity I will not lift a finger ever again. I say that now knowing that somehow I'll get sucked back in. [Sigh] [Scream]

NY, This reply system on this site leaves a lot to be desired. I have already responded but I have read some of your responses and wanted to add this:

My husband was a successful business man, very direct and capable...but..when it came to his parents, he was useless, very weak and incapable of standing up to them. Made me crazy. I had to give him ultimatums in order to get him to do the right thing for his parents, sounds like your husband also has a problem in this area. It was an never ending battle between us, he knew what needed to be done, just didn't have the backbone to do it. He didn't want to upset them, instead he put them in harms way, it was a big mess.

I hope that this will not be an ongoing issue with you and your husband. Was a very stressful situation for me.

"NYDaughterInLaw
8 min ago
I feel that we have tried everything and that I am tired. I wish that my husband would give his dad the "either or" but he feels that's extreme. What I think is extreme is the amount of money being wasted every single month that by now could have paid for an entire year's worth of rent at assisted living. I am very much a person who lives in the present with a forward-looking attitude, and FIL's money will not last into his 90s. It just won't at his current rate of spending. And then who has to deal with that mess? My husband, which means I too will once again have to deal with all of the nonsense associated with FIL's poor decisions. And I am tired of it."

I'd be tired of it too, NYDIL!

Too extreme? Your DH is supposed to be in a fiduciary position with regards to his dad, doing what is BEST for him.

What is dad's "plan"? If he was always a spendthrift, did he always expect that someone would be there to bail him out?

What is DH's "plan"? Is he planning on using your (joint) retirement funds to keep Dad in his overly costly apartment?

It sounds as though your husband needs some tough talking to by the lawyer. Or send him to Bogleheads.org for financial advice.

Perhaps the lawyer can be the "bad guy" if it comes down to that.

(This is a duplicate of my "reply to" below):

I think it's this darn "reply to" function.  I can never find my most recent post.

You're posting is just fine; the posts are simply unfindable!

I wouldn't ever consider hiring a professional POA, your husband would lose all his power to help and oversee his father. In addition to that, his father is in charge of his own POA, not your husband, if the change is to be made the father (if of sound mind) would be the designator.
I just had a talk with my step-father about moving some of his money to secure a better ROI, I approached it with hard facts, showing him how much he was earning and what his potential could be. After a while, he understood, we moved his money.
Personally, I would lay it out in black n white, how much he has, how much he is earning including SS and any pensions, less what he is spending, forecast it out over the next 5 years. Do it in a professional, non emotional, non judgmental way.

If you are planning to move to your hometown, you might want to consider having his move be coordinated with that location. If he financially has to move sooner, then could you move him first? I guess that depends on how far away you would plan to move. He may live 10 more years and he may be a disagreeable old cout but it will be much easier to have him located a quick car ride away when you do have to start dealing with things. I know that common wisdom is try not to move them too much. but if you have to, you have to. I agree with the posters; you cannot get him to agree, so find a place that you feel is nice and affordable, and tell him he is moving. Period. If you live in a state with supportive living programs, or if your new state has them, they can be much cheaper. My mother was in a memory care program that she really was not ready for, and we moved her to a supportive living facility in our state, that is $2200 a month cheaper for a large one bedroom apartment that she loves.
Good luck; this is so aggravating I know but it often gets worse. It is very hard, we all know that here.

Ask him, "What are you plans?" You might find that by starting with that, he will tell you quite a bit. Try to ask questions: "Do you want to talk about financea": If he refuses to answer questions where he just gets to state his opinion, then you know he is not going to listen to your advice. Then you just might make the decisions- he's not going to be cooperative or thankful or happy. Give that up, make the best decisions for him and let him fuss.

My suggestion would be to avoid starting sentences with "you"...... "you're spending too much money", "you can't manage your money", "you need to move to a smaller unit". These will seem confrontational and accusatory and you will be faced with immediate resistance.

Instead, make it about you and start with "I"..... "I'm worried about you", "I want you to be able to live comfortably for a long time", "I really love you and I need to voice my concerns". "I'm willing to help do whatever it takes to make the rest of your life as good as it can be." "I'm concerned that your goals and actions are not matching up and I'd like to help you". These might make him a bit more open to at least have a conversation.

Everyone is so right, there is no reasoning with dementia, so these may not work. But if there is still a bit of reality in your FIL, these will be your best bet. Good luck!

This is a test (my responses aren't posting).

It’s hard to advise here without knowing if FIL has dementia and what level. You stated that he can’t take care of his finances so I suspect there is some dementia.

I don’t see any other way than to take the issue head on as diplomatically as possible. If FIL refuses then do what you have to do.

I had to force my folks into assited living. Took the phone away. And the car. Dad had no short term memory at the time and could be diverted. Mom was livid but not competent enough to do anything about it. That was the reality for us. Maybe for you also now.

Elders will get hurt feelings, mad etc as we take measures to care for and protect them. It can’t be helped. Just doing our job as best we can.

Hi all,
Thank you for your answers. To answer your questions:
Yes, hubby has shown his fathers the numbers in black and white and yes, FIL was always bad with money, never looking at price tags, always just paying the bills without considering them. He's a spendthrift.

No, hubby has not talked to the elder law attorney who drew up the papers. I think that's a great suggestion.

Thank you for answering. It makes me feel like I am being reasonable. I do feel that hubby has been eminently reasonable in trying to deal with his dad and that it's reached the point of "do this or I'm out" because it's taking such a toll on my husband.

I love you all. Really. Knowing that I can come here for advice is priceless to me.

I see this through the lens of dealing with a senior who has a certain level of dementia.
I obviously don’t know your FIL ability to reason.
I don’t think it’s helpful to have a financial conversation with someone who can’t handle finances.
To me this convo is to make DH feel better about a decision he has already deemed necessary.
We don’t know the extent of the dementia but waiting until the space has been located and it’s time to move would be my suggestion.
“We want to make sure you can keep Betty and Sue, they take such good care of you” would be as about as far as I would go on finances. Whatever would resonate for him.
Saving money probably not so much. In other words use caretaker manipulation on the things he is concerned with.
Accentuate the positive as it relates to his current priorities.
More tv stations, better food, other singles in the area. Better view. Closer to the dining room. Whatever the highlights are. Perhaps it’s closer to the bathroom. A larger shower or closet or bedroom?
I would drop the attitude of “force his father to make a decision”. He made the decision when he gave his son POA.

I second just EXACTLY what BarbBrooklyn says. This is one two three, step by step. You say he could live 10 more years. The expenditure has to be huge,esp with fact they were both in Assisted Living. I think it has to be 1. Talk to the administration, choose another smaller unit. 2. Tell Dad. 3. When Dad says no tell him there are two choices: Move to this unit which is what he can afford and still have savings and earnings from that to sustain him lifelong OR a resignation of POA. Offer to take Dad with the the Lawyer. There Dad can hire a fiduciary to take over, or there can be court appointed guardianship for him.
All of that leaves it with it still being Dad's choice. And in fact, if you are freed from this, then I think that is almost just as well. You cannot help those who will not be helped. Dad will perhaps listen to a Lawyer who will tell him the rate of hemorrhage of the money will leave Dad in a Nursing Home with a roommate he may not care for.
You can only do so much and it is so clear you have tried everything.

More answers needed here!

DH is FIL's POA, right?

Has DH talked to the lawyer who drew up the POA about what rights this gives him?

If DH is in charge of FIL's money, he needs to cheerfully announce to FIL, "next month you'll be moving to unit 4 H; that's what you can afford right now".

If FIL objects, DH pushes back, gently, once and says, "Dad, you can't afford to live in this apartment anymore. Sorry".

If FIL makes a fuss, DH resigns POA and walks away from management. He then visits as a loving son and says. "sorry dad, that got taken out of my hands".
There is no reasoning with dementia.

Has your hubby sat down in a calm moment with his Dad and shown him the math? Sometimes, just saying the budget is busting is not enough. Was he like this when he was a younger person? Maybe this is just how he has always been and hubby is just realizing it in full color? In this case I think there's little hope for change. This was my StepFIL and he never changed, right up to when he became a ward of the state because of his denial.

Also, not sure what a professional PoA is except maybe an elder attorney? You can't hire a PoA for someone else unless you can prove that person is not of sound mind. Is your hubby currently the PoA? If so, he can resign the authority, but not sure I would do this. Your hubby is reacting to your dad as if he's not a senior citizen you *might* have the beginnings of dementia. He should take him to his next doc appointment and have him discretely tested (docs do this all the time). This will tell you a lot more and inform your next steps with the situation.

If your DH has his dad's financial PoA he has power to change the spending rate, but he may not get his dad's blessing. Your DH having an adjusted mindset to what is going on with his dad will be crucial in how he deals with him and the situation.

If you do eventually get to move him, please have it be into a senior community with continuity of care (from AL to MC to Hospice) so that he won't have a big upheaval later in his years when it is really unsettling to him (and you and hubby!). And depending on how it went prior, DH might want to move him to a care community close to him, as it will be easier. No perfect answers, but good luck!