What words and phrases have you found helpful in getting your parent to cooperate? Today we talk with FIL about his $$$burn rate$$$.

Has your hubby sat down in a calm moment with his Dad and shown him the math? Sometimes, just saying the budget is busting is not enough. Was he like this when he was a younger person? Maybe this is just how he has always been and hubby is just realizing it in full color? In this case I think there's little hope for change. This was my StepFIL and he never changed, right up to when he became a ward of the state because of his denial.

Also, not sure what a professional PoA is except maybe an elder attorney? You can't hire a PoA for someone else unless you can prove that person is not of sound mind. Is your hubby currently the PoA? If so, he can resign the authority, but not sure I would do this. Your hubby is reacting to your dad as if he's not a senior citizen you *might* have the beginnings of dementia. He should take him to his next doc appointment and have him discretely tested (docs do this all the time). This will tell you a lot more and inform your next steps with the situation.

If your DH has his dad's financial PoA he has power to change the spending rate, but he may not get his dad's blessing. Your DH having an adjusted mindset to what is going on with his dad will be crucial in how he deals with him and the situation.

If you do eventually get to move him, please have it be into a senior community with continuity of care (from AL to MC to Hospice) so that he won't have a big upheaval later in his years when it is really unsettling to him (and you and hubby!). And depending on how it went prior, DH might want to move him to a care community close to him, as it will be easier. No perfect answers, but good luck!

My suggestion would be to avoid starting sentences with "you"...... "you're spending too much money", "you can't manage your money", "you need to move to a smaller unit". These will seem confrontational and accusatory and you will be faced with immediate resistance.

Instead, make it about you and start with "I"..... "I'm worried about you", "I want you to be able to live comfortably for a long time", "I really love you and I need to voice my concerns". "I'm willing to help do whatever it takes to make the rest of your life as good as it can be." "I'm concerned that your goals and actions are not matching up and I'd like to help you". These might make him a bit more open to at least have a conversation.

Everyone is so right, there is no reasoning with dementia, so these may not work. But if there is still a bit of reality in your FIL, these will be your best bet. Good luck!

DH is FIL's POA, right?

Has DH talked to the lawyer who drew up the POA about what rights this gives him?

If DH is in charge of FIL's money, he needs to cheerfully announce to FIL, "next month you'll be moving to unit 4 H; that's what you can afford right now".

If FIL objects, DH pushes back, gently, once and says, "Dad, you can't afford to live in this apartment anymore. Sorry".

If FIL makes a fuss, DH resigns POA and walks away from management. He then visits as a loving son and says. "sorry dad, that got taken out of my hands".
There is no reasoning with dementia.

I second just EXACTLY what BarbBrooklyn says. This is one two three, step by step. You say he could live 10 more years. The expenditure has to be huge,esp with fact they were both in Assisted Living. I think it has to be 1. Talk to the administration, choose another smaller unit. 2. Tell Dad. 3. When Dad says no tell him there are two choices: Move to this unit which is what he can afford and still have savings and earnings from that to sustain him lifelong OR a resignation of POA. Offer to take Dad with the the Lawyer. There Dad can hire a fiduciary to take over, or there can be court appointed guardianship for him.
All of that leaves it with it still being Dad's choice. And in fact, if you are freed from this, then I think that is almost just as well. You cannot help those who will not be helped. Dad will perhaps listen to a Lawyer who will tell him the rate of hemorrhage of the money will leave Dad in a Nursing Home with a roommate he may not care for.
You can only do so much and it is so clear you have tried everything.

Hi all,
Thank you for your answers. To answer your questions:
Yes, hubby has shown his fathers the numbers in black and white and yes, FIL was always bad with money, never looking at price tags, always just paying the bills without considering them. He's a spendthrift.

No, hubby has not talked to the elder law attorney who drew up the papers. I think that's a great suggestion.

Thank you for answering. It makes me feel like I am being reasonable. I do feel that hubby has been eminently reasonable in trying to deal with his dad and that it's reached the point of "do this or I'm out" because it's taking such a toll on my husband.

I love you all. Really. Knowing that I can come here for advice is priceless to me.

It’s hard to advise here without knowing if FIL has dementia and what level. You stated that he can’t take care of his finances so I suspect there is some dementia.

I don’t see any other way than to take the issue head on as diplomatically as possible. If FIL refuses then do what you have to do.

I had to force my folks into assited living. Took the phone away. And the car. Dad had no short term memory at the time and could be diverted. Mom was livid but not competent enough to do anything about it. That was the reality for us. Maybe for you also now.

Elders will get hurt feelings, mad etc as we take measures to care for and protect them. It can’t be helped. Just doing our job as best we can.

Nydil, my SIL is from Argentina; her dad was originally from Spain. Dad was a CPA and my SIL has an MBA.

Her dad deferred to her older brother and my SIL pushed back HARD.

I think your DH needs to push back. You can encourage him by telling him that he should tell his dad that you won't put up with this.

This old school stuff should not be pussy- footed around.

"We're in America, Dad. These Amerian women do'nt do it this way" I'll have to walk away from you".

NY, I'm sorry you're in this frustrating situation. I think everyone's advice has been great, and just want to encourage you to make the necessary move in spite of FIL's protests. Chances are he'll adjust, especially being in the same facility, with the same caregivers, daily routines, and his familiar furnishings.  

My sister and I located a lovely, but much less expensive IL for our parents when they were around 90, after their current facility had a 9% rate increase one year. I knew their savings wouldn't be sufficient to cover expenses for an additional ten years (both of them had parents who had lived well into their 90s.)

In our case, we arranged the moving van for first thing in the morning. We had parents stay at sister's house while my brother and I arranged everything at their new apartment. Clothes were hung in the closets, toothbrushes, towels, and toiletries in place in the bathroom, pictures hung, lamps plugged in, bed made, dishes in cupboards, coffee maker on counter, etc.  

We didn't get everything unpacked that day (I returned the following days to finish emptying boxes and restock the frig.) But our parents walked into a very attractive, familiar-looking apartment that evening. 

Our parents adjusted very well, (although neither had more than MCI at the time.) They and we kids were greatly relieved to no longer worry about their money running out. And their savings did make it (though just barely!) until Mom died at age 99.

Yikes, I can't imagine trying to reason with this old man. But since he's not competent to handle his financial affairs, I do think the POA must force the issue (in a loving manner) to preserve the money he'll need in the coming years. 

I don't envy what you're facing. Do let us know how you decide to handle this.

Good luck!!

NYDIL: Your FIL has been diagnosed with dementia, yes?

It only goes in one direction. Moving a person with diagnosed dementia from Independent Living with Caregivers to a regular apartment complex with part time caregivers is moving him to a less supportive environment.

Has his doctor weighed in on the appropriateness of this move? Are there indications that he needs LESS or DIFFERENT care than the IL environment provides? Off the top of my head, I'd say if he needs private caregivers in IL, that is an indication that he needs a HIGHER level of service.

Have you thought about suggesting to DH and BIL that they hire, temporarily a Geriatric Care manager to assess FIL's needs, agree to abide by her/his recommendation and sign on for that person to explain to FIL what his options are?

There is too much attention being paid to the preserving of FIL's frail ego going on in this family for anyone to make a good decision.