"But whenI see my moms money paying for movies, cable, phone bill and dinners in the state my sister lives that makes me sick."
She has the account statements in front of her. She's checked that no money is being deposited from other sources. Assuming that the sister lives in a different state from the mother (mother's facility is near Stargazer, I believe) it's hard to see how the mother could be benefitting from dinner and a movie.
Worth following up, at the very least, I'd have thought.
CM I saw that but it doesn’t really answer the question. Some of those bills could be moms. In the US you can’t see the location of the services are for on your bank statement-such as cellphone and cable and Netflix and such. It just says Comcast, Netflix, AT& T or whatever providers you use. It doesn’t show the property address. Same with certain utilities, like if you have PG&E for your gas & electric. It won’t show the location of the service on the bank statement. So Unless sister is writing checks and documenting on the note line that it’s for her personal bills (the way my MILs partner did), it’s possible that some of those are her mother’s bills. Especially if mom still has her own home. Even though she’s in a “dementia home”, there are still costs associated with her home. A Netflix subscription, if there’s is one, could be for mom. She might also have to pay for mom to have cable in her room. But dinners and movies at the movie theater, those are easily identified because they will show the location.
Is any of your mother's relatives in driving distance to MOM? I moved my relatives to be less than a five minute drive. Then I put them in a board and care together, so I could sit between them and read to them and talk to them...My doctor clearly saw a change in me and my stress level. It went down.
Make sure your mom is good. Make sure you see her as often as possible. If she still talks, then make good conversation and talk to her. It is awful when they stop talking... It is so sad, there goes another piece of the person you love... talking, laughing....gone almost in an instant...
Take care of your mom as best as you can. Just keep your family together for MOM. That is what really matters now.
Once my friend's sister retired, she moved their mom up closer to the sister who just retired. Friend said: Great ! You are Retired! Now it's your turn to take care of Mom. Look for a place close to you now" They moved Mom to be closer to the other daughter, for my friend was taking care of their mom over the last 8 years, now it was sister's time to do the caring. It worked out. They had family gatherings up there, and it was a good change.
Keep the communication lines open for Mom's sake and safety.
So. Your sister, using her authority as POA, set up a dedicated bank account for your mother's SS and pension benefits. You have access to statements for this account. No money from any other sources is paid into the account. Payments going out include payments for items which could not possibly be connected with any purpose related to your mother's needs: cable services for your sister's address, dinner at restaurants in a different state, and so on.
This, based on what you have told us, is flagrant financial abuse. Your sister is stealing from your mother.
Ideally, the first step would be to speak to your sister and ask her what she thinks she's doing. Does she, perhaps, sincerely believe that she is entitled to do what she is doing with this money? She may only be in error, and given better information might stop. But I have a feeling that you are not on good enough terms with your sister to have this kind of conversation.
So as a more likely practical first step, I should call your local Adult Protective Services team and ask them what you should do.
If that doesn't help, you'd better take it to a lawyer. Forum members will be able to recommend how you can do that at minimal cost better than I can; but ultimately any fees for legal advice obtained on your mother's behalf can be legitimately charged to your mother.
I don't get why some people are saying it's illegal. I don't see how it is. Unwise? Could be. Definitely if applying for medicaid. But illegal? I don't see how that can be.
Legally, that money belongs to both of them the second it's deposited in the account. That's what having a joint account means. It's just as much your sister's and it is your mom's. So she can pay her bills with that money. Since it's her money too at that point. Being a POA is besides the point. The joint account is what matters here. It would be a different matter if the account was only in your mom's name and your sister using her power as POA was withdrawing that money as POA from your mom's account. But she's not.
Now if medicaid comes into the picture, then it's a problem. Since it's seen as your mom gifting that money to your sister. And thus medicaid will want a clawback or will impose a penalty.
If all gifts were illegal, then I would dare say most people would be "guilty". Technically, medicaid could try to clawback a teddy bear given to a grandchild if it's within the lookback period. It's a non permissible transfer.
I think perhaps they are assuming sister is moms SS rep payee? If she is, then yes what she is doing is not allowed. The money has to be used on moms care. But honestly there isn’t enough info to determine anything here. The sister could have permission from mom. The bills being paid could be moms bills.
It's a bad idea for your sister to use the joint account she operates for your mother for anything except your mother's income and outgoings. Bad for your sister, I mean: it makes life far more complicated when it comes to accounting.
But how do you know that your sister is paying your sister's bills with your mother's money? For example: how do you know that your mother's SS and pension benefits comprise all of the money that is being paid into the account? Do you actually have the account statements in front of you?
I appreciate you answering my question. I know about my sister spending my moms money because I have access to the account. I can see that my moms benefits for SS and her pension being direct deposited and my sister who lives in another state paying her bills. I have looked and no other money is being deposited.
Joint account...... That is the answer. It is a joint account.
Question... Is your mom taken care of? Who sees her the most, takes and schedules doctor appointments? dentist, hair salon, grocery shopping. sings, dances, music social?... ordering and picking up prescriptions? ARE YOU DOING THIS TOO?
Joint account is a joint account.... I am in the same boat as your sister. I take care of my LO... I take her to get her hair done, set up doctor appointments, meet the nurses when they visit, get her prescriptions filled, visit with her, talk with her, read to her...... Nobody visits her..;.. And if someone questions me... well then I will hand over the reins and the accounts and the responsibilities, and everything else that goes on with taking care of someone... I moved her close to me. A f... walk down the driveway, but hey.... who knows when the person may "forget to take the walker,,,, and falls and breaks a freaking hip" And then what? You have to visit them farther away... and tell social services that you have another place... and they don't freaking believe you because you found a place to quickly..... Well, this isn't my first walk around the block..
SO, IF YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING YOUR SISTER IS DOING AND AS OFTEN....then you may have a question or so....BUT IF YOUR SIS IS DOING EV ERYTHING AND EVERYTHING IS FALLING IN THE LAP OF SIS.......She deserves every penny that is being spent...
Sorry, about this, I question the person who is asking this. When I see the SIGN in SHEET and it is onLY ME...... seeing her, visiting her, taking her to appointments, reading to her.......AND THIS IS NOT THE REASON I AM DOING THIS.....I love her...
SHE CALLED ME.. SHE ASKED ME!!! NOW I HAVE HER 2 MINUTES FROM ME...CLOSE BY IN CASE ANYTHING MAY HAPPEN, I AM THERE... PERIOD..
If you feel it is unfair,,, then move MOM CLOSE TO YOU... VISIT HER .. SING TO HER, TALK, TAKE HER TO APPOINTMENTS WITH YOUR SISTER... BE INVOLVED IN MOM'S DAILY ACTIVITES...
This will help your sister too.. I was so happy when my friend moved her MOM in the my MOM..... She would call me and say, I BROUGHT MILK SHAKES, !!! COME OVER, SO WE CAN DRINK MILKSHAKES AND DANCE. AND BE HAPPY!!!!!
HELP YOUR SISTER TAKE CARE OF MOM.. PERIOD.. JOIN HER... DANCE TOGETHER WITH MOM, SING TOGETHER WITH YOUR SISTER AND MOM... HAVE FUN!!! bring dinner over and eat together. tell childhood stories.
HAVE FUN... MAKE IT FUN... JOIN TOGETHER... TELL SIS YOU HAVE THE TREATS... I WILL BE AT MOM'S...EATING, SINGING, DANCING...
THIS IS NOT GOING TO LAST.. :(
SO, DO NOT THINK ABOUT THE ALL MIGHTY F...N... DOLLAR.....
TAKE CARE OF MOM..... HELP SISTER OUT.. JOIN HER.. I don't know sister or you, what your personal family style is...kids... hubby etc... but I do know taking care of geriatrics takes a lot of time...., and if she is the only one like me... then yes,... she deserves basically what she is putting into your MOTHER.
I STRONGLY SAY THIS;;;; YOUR MOM DESERVES ALL THE ATTENTION SHE GETS FROM ALL HER CHILDREN... MAY YOU ALL DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR HER, AND GIVE HER THE BEST SHE CAN GET AT THIS TIME IN HER LIFE....Obviously all you love her... so hopefully all of you are taking awesome care of her, this is too much for one person to handle....
You are not on this blog just to be on this blog...get with the program, take care of and love mom as best you can...so you can have peace at the end.... No matter what..
Deal with the monetary crap later...if you feel you need to...NOW IS THE TIME FOR MOM. TAKE CARE OF HER, SPEND TIME WITH HER, JOIN YOUR SISTER AND TAKE HER TO THE DOCTOR APPOINTMENTS HAIR APPOINTMENTS DENTIST, GROCERY STORE DEPARTMENT STORE,... ETC ETC
I remember my brother (early dementia) saw mom and me in my car... he walked up and knocked on window. I was at a red light. I told him to get in.. Took mom to get her hair done... All brother could say, is he wished he didn't knock on my car door. He didn't know what he was getting into
I appreciate you answering my question. My sister lives in another state. She was upset when I was made POA first since she’s the older one. My mom finally gave in to her and let her have it. I wouldn’t mind if she would of kept the separate accounts but the minute she had control she transferred my moms money into another account and put her name on it too! It makes me sick to watch my moms SS and pension go into the account and my sister starts paying her own bills with it. I have access to the account on line so I can see how much money goes in and how much she’s spending. My mom is in a dementia home here, so my sister doesn’t see her that often. But whenI see my moms money paying for movies, cable, phone bill and dinners in the state my sister lives that makes me sick. I always kept her money separate when I took care of her banking and only paid her bills. I never would of taken my moms money to pay my bills. When my mom was well my sister was Constantly asking my mom for money and would get mad when she didn’t get it so now she has more money than she did before and she doesn’t have to ask.
Your lawyer should be able to determine if it’s legal or not when you show him/her evidence that the money spent by the POA is not in your mother’s best interests. 🤷🏼♀️
Mom's money is to be used for Mom, unless Mom has previously put in writing that it's ok for sister to use her money to pay some bills or that she is paying sister for care. If not, then this could be considered financial abuse and might be reportable.
Not sure if there are any criminal laws, it could be a murky situation. Are they living together? If money goes toward expenses needed to maintain the household and care for Mom and Mom agreed to help sister it seems to be a gray area. If they are not living together, then sister is not behaving properly.
The information about use of Social Security funds is available online, so you may find it helpful to google it so you can see how specific limitations may apply in your family situation.
At some point, if your sister attempts to apply for Medicaid for your mother, Mom’s financial past will be carefully examined to determine her eligibility.
Not necessarily true. Depending on which state you apply for Medicaid in. I'm going through this right now with my mom. Trying to get medicaid waver program for her. All they asked for was a print out of the past 30 days bank statement. They're only looking to see income and if large chunks of money were taken out. If large amounts were withdrawn to hide money, then they'll investigate. A social worker from hospice helped me to get my mom qualified. I had to spend money down, but it has to be for her needs. She needed furniture, I bought it. Other household things too to make her more comfortable. All this passed through for medicaid. I could have bought that stuff for me, he didn't but they never checked. As long as the checks were wrote out to businesses and not private people for large amounts. If she has legal power of attorney, you need to get another lawyer involved to check this out through court. You need to prove she's using it for herself. You can try elderly abuse through DHS, they may look into this. Its the same dept as child protective service. Stealing from elderly is abuse.
If she is POA, then her responsibility is to use your mom's money for her care unless mom established a caregiver's agreement with her. I would get more details and if necessary, contact a lawyer. By your sister comingling funds, she could be really messing up the Medicaid spend down should your mom need it in the future.
"But whenI see my moms money paying for movies, cable, phone bill and dinners in the state my sister lives that makes me sick."
She has the account statements in front of her. She's checked that no money is being deposited from other sources. Assuming that the sister lives in a different state from the mother (mother's facility is near Stargazer, I believe) it's hard to see how the mother could be benefitting from dinner and a movie.
Worth following up, at the very least, I'd have thought.
Make sure your mom is good. Make sure you see her as often as possible. If she still talks, then make good conversation and talk to her. It is awful when they stop talking... It is so sad, there goes another piece of the person you love... talking, laughing....gone almost in an instant...
Take care of your mom as best as you can. Just keep your family together for MOM. That is what really matters now.
Once my friend's sister retired, she moved their mom up closer to the sister who just retired. Friend said: Great ! You are Retired! Now it's your turn to take care of Mom. Look for a place close to you now" They moved Mom to be closer to the other daughter, for my friend was taking care of their mom over the last 8 years, now it was sister's time to do the caring. It worked out. They had family gatherings up there, and it was a good change.
Keep the communication lines open for Mom's sake and safety.
This, based on what you have told us, is flagrant financial abuse. Your sister is stealing from your mother.
Ideally, the first step would be to speak to your sister and ask her what she thinks she's doing. Does she, perhaps, sincerely believe that she is entitled to do what she is doing with this money? She may only be in error, and given better information might stop. But I have a feeling that you are not on good enough terms with your sister to have this kind of conversation.
So as a more likely practical first step, I should call your local Adult Protective Services team and ask them what you should do.
If that doesn't help, you'd better take it to a lawyer. Forum members will be able to recommend how you can do that at minimal cost better than I can; but ultimately any fees for legal advice obtained on your mother's behalf can be legitimately charged to your mother.
Legally, that money belongs to both of them the second it's deposited in the account. That's what having a joint account means. It's just as much your sister's and it is your mom's. So she can pay her bills with that money. Since it's her money too at that point. Being a POA is besides the point. The joint account is what matters here. It would be a different matter if the account was only in your mom's name and your sister using her power as POA was withdrawing that money as POA from your mom's account. But she's not.
Now if medicaid comes into the picture, then it's a problem. Since it's seen as your mom gifting that money to your sister. And thus medicaid will want a clawback or will impose a penalty.
If all gifts were illegal, then I would dare say most people would be "guilty". Technically, medicaid could try to clawback a teddy bear given to a grandchild if it's within the lookback period. It's a non permissible transfer.
But how do you know that your sister is paying your sister's bills with your mother's money? For example: how do you know that your mother's SS and pension benefits comprise all of the money that is being paid into the account? Do you actually have the account statements in front of you?
Question... Is your mom taken care of? Who sees her the most, takes and schedules doctor appointments? dentist, hair salon, grocery shopping. sings, dances, music social?... ordering and picking up prescriptions? ARE YOU DOING THIS TOO?
Joint account is a joint account.... I am in the same boat as your sister. I take care of my LO... I take her to get her hair done, set up doctor appointments, meet the nurses when they visit, get her prescriptions filled, visit with her, talk with her, read to her...... Nobody visits her..;.. And if someone questions me... well then I will hand over the reins and the accounts and the responsibilities, and everything else that goes on with taking care of someone... I moved her close to me. A f... walk down the driveway, but hey.... who knows when the person may "forget to take the walker,,,, and falls and breaks a freaking hip" And then what? You have to visit them farther away... and tell social services that you have another place... and they don't freaking believe you because you found a place to quickly..... Well, this isn't my first walk around the block..
SO, IF YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING YOUR SISTER IS DOING AND AS OFTEN....then you may have a question or so....BUT IF YOUR SIS IS DOING EV ERYTHING AND EVERYTHING IS FALLING IN THE LAP OF SIS.......She deserves every penny that is being spent...
Sorry, about this, I question the person who is asking this. When I see the SIGN in SHEET and it is onLY ME...... seeing her, visiting her, taking her to appointments, reading to her.......AND THIS IS NOT THE REASON I AM DOING THIS.....I love her...
SHE CALLED ME.. SHE ASKED ME!!! NOW I HAVE HER 2 MINUTES FROM ME...CLOSE BY IN CASE ANYTHING MAY HAPPEN, I AM THERE... PERIOD..
If you feel it is unfair,,, then move MOM CLOSE TO YOU... VISIT HER .. SING TO HER, TALK, TAKE HER TO APPOINTMENTS WITH YOUR SISTER... BE INVOLVED IN MOM'S DAILY ACTIVITES...
This will help your sister too.. I was so happy when my friend moved her MOM in the my MOM..... She would call me and say, I BROUGHT MILK SHAKES, !!! COME OVER, SO WE CAN DRINK MILKSHAKES AND DANCE. AND BE HAPPY!!!!!
HELP YOUR SISTER TAKE CARE OF MOM.. PERIOD.. JOIN HER... DANCE TOGETHER WITH MOM, SING TOGETHER WITH YOUR SISTER AND MOM... HAVE FUN!!! bring dinner over and eat together. tell childhood stories.
HAVE FUN... MAKE IT FUN... JOIN TOGETHER... TELL SIS YOU HAVE THE TREATS... I WILL BE AT MOM'S...EATING, SINGING, DANCING...
THIS IS NOT GOING TO LAST.. :(
SO, DO NOT THINK ABOUT THE ALL MIGHTY F...N... DOLLAR.....
TAKE CARE OF MOM..... HELP SISTER OUT.. JOIN HER.. I don't know sister or you, what your personal family style is...kids... hubby etc... but I do know taking care of geriatrics takes a lot of time...., and if she is the only one like me... then yes,... she deserves basically what she is putting into your MOTHER.
I STRONGLY SAY THIS;;;; YOUR MOM DESERVES ALL THE ATTENTION SHE GETS FROM ALL HER CHILDREN... MAY YOU ALL DO SOMETHING GOOD FOR HER, AND GIVE HER THE BEST SHE CAN GET AT THIS TIME IN HER LIFE....Obviously all you love her... so hopefully all of you are taking awesome care of her, this is too much for one person to handle....
You are not on this blog just to be on this blog...get with the program, take care of and love mom as best you can...so you can have peace at the end.... No matter what..
Deal with the monetary crap later...if you feel you need to...NOW IS THE TIME FOR MOM. TAKE CARE OF HER, SPEND TIME WITH HER, JOIN YOUR SISTER AND TAKE HER TO THE DOCTOR APPOINTMENTS HAIR APPOINTMENTS DENTIST, GROCERY STORE DEPARTMENT STORE,... ETC ETC
I remember my brother (early dementia) saw mom and me in my car... he walked up and knocked on window. I was at a red light. I told him to get in.. Took mom to get her hair done... All brother could say, is he wished he didn't knock on my car door. He didn't know what he was getting into
At some point, if your sister attempts to apply for Medicaid for your mother, Mom’s financial past will be carefully examined to determine her eligibility.
I would get more details and if necessary, contact a lawyer. By your sister comingling funds, she could be really messing up the Medicaid spend down should your mom need it in the future.