Should I give my mom a trial at living with us to prove that it won't work?

"I have tried everything. Ignoring, changing the subject, confronting it head on, yelling, whispering, talking logically and calmly, enlisting helpers, creating lists, giving her aids, calendars, timers. She finds a way to dismiss EVERYTHING and EVERY ASSISTANCE. BECAUSE SHE WANTS HER WAY!!!! And that is to live with me in my home. Has anyone out there dealt with a person this stubborn and insistent? I mean, she is really one tough cookie."

Yes I have dealt with that and I am one tough cookie too, as are my narc mother and sister. I totally understand trying everything and that your mum erodes your boundaries all the time, She built the fear, guilt and obligations buttons in you and she knows how to press them. Remember you will never change her. You will not convince her that your home is not an option, so the only way to deal with it is to say "No!. I could not possibly do that!" or words to that effect, then walk away. Don't stay and argue with her. Possibly even send it to her in a note or email and also tell her that the subject is closed as far as you are concerned and you will not discuss it any further and stick to that. If she brings it up walk away, hang up or delete the email. You can do it. Many here have learned to. I know it feels scary at first, but the more you do it, the easier it gets.

Stop trying to change her. You list things that you have done to "help" her or change her mind ".I have tried everything. Ignoring, changing the subject, confronting it head on, yelling, whispering, talking logically and calmly, enlisting helpers, creating lists, giving her aids, calendars, timers. She finds a way to dismiss EVERYTHING and EVERY ASSISTANCE. BECAUSE SHE WANTS HER WAY!!!!"

It doesn't work!!!!! Yes, she wants her way but she cannot have her way in this situation or in all situations. She is a typical narcissist and she will continue to be like this. Nothing you do is going to change her. All you can do is change yourself and your responses to her to protect yourself and your marriage more.

Get over the guilt of saying "No". This is called false guilt. You are doing nothing wrong by saying no to her. Real guilt is what you feel when you have done something wrong. False guilt is what you feel when you don't meet the (unrealistic) expectations of others who are trying to manipulate you. The sky will not fall in when you say no. She will be angry - what's new. Just get out of the way when she explodes. She will always find something to be angry about as she uses her anger to manipulate you. For a narc it is like a game. "How far can I push this person around?" often much more important to them than the issue at hand. She wants to win - whatever the issue, the point is that she wants to win.

I know about boundaries being pushed and it is exhausting as you are kept in this crazy dance of reinforcing, and reinventing boundaries. I haven't seen much about that in the literature on boundaries, After a while I came to feel the exhaustion of mother continually pushing my boundaries and knew the next step was reducing contact, which I did. How often do you have contact with your mother in a week, a month? As long as her needs - food, shelter, medical acre finances looked after are met,you do not have to visit or talk to her and meet her sick demands. In fact, you are enabling her when you do. You do not have to care for her hands on and, in cases like yours it is recommended that you care give at arm's length for your own protection. Get off the merry-go-round! Find something better to do with your time and energy. Apparently you are spending a lot of it on her sick ways and it is doing you no good. I visit mother a few times a year - that's it. I stopped answering phone calls when she became very abusive, She is well cared for, but not by me and engages in her games with the staff of her facility who are trained to do this, rather than with me.

Today take some steps in a healthier direction. If you talk to her daily, cut it back to 3 x a week, and later cut it back more if she is still abusive and the conversations upset you. If you visit her 2x a week cut it back to once a week and then less often. If you deliver groceries, do just that and then leave, engaging in no more conversation than about the weather. You get the idea. Do not indulge her tantrums and willfulness. You would not take this from anyone else, I hope and don't take it from her.

Learn about distancing and detachment from people. Research it in the internet. Look up how to deal with a narcissistic parent and apply these things to your life and your quality of life will improve.

Keep coming back - we will reinforce your healthy actions and - do something good for you today -soon!!! Blessings

Cookie - if ever there was a Master Manipulator it was my mother. Mom passed away about two weeks ago and I can still say that without guilt or feeling bad because it's the straight, honest truth. I had a life time of it. I have two older brothers - one has had next to no contact with her for years and the other was her golden child so he made excuses for her. I didn't really get it for a loooong time - I knew she was stubborn and sometimes cold but I didn't see the depth of the manipulations until six years ago when both my parents had a health crisis at the same time, had to sell their house of 50 years and move into IL. We were able to hire a full time caregiver for my dad - mom recovered and went back to her life - with me doing all the details dad use to do - which was almost everything. Daddy passed after two years, mom began to show signs of dementia, I became official DPOA and life as I knew it was offically over. I could go on and on about all the crap I had to deal with but I'll cut to my point - no matter what my mom pulled I was able to stand firm on one point - mom was NEVER, EVER, moving in with me, hubby and my adult disabled son, NEVER. If I hadn't have had my own home - my sanctuary to retreat into I would have lost my mind - and probably my family. The ringing telephone was intrusion enough - but I could choose to just not pick up. When they are in your home 24/7 you don't have the choice not to "pick up". I don't know what to say to you to make you realize it's okay to save yourself - and your own family. But you just have to do it - if you took her in and then something awful happened to you - God forbid - but is that how you will have wanted to spend your last bit of time on this earth - or do you and your husband - your children, deserve better?

Here is a perfect example in real time:
Mom has been at my house for two plus weeks. She just left 18 hours ago. I drove her home after work. She called me today and said she needs four prescriptions refilled. She only has 1 pill left. I WAS JUST THERE LAST NIGHT!!!!! She knows I can't call 911 for this. And she needs these medicines. So what do I do? She can't drive, and pharmacy does not have delivery. I had a text message system set up to let me know when her prescriptions were due but she go that completely screwed up by not buying the medicine when it was ready and refusing to pay for it. She would say she had "extra" pills and didn't need it or it was too expensive. So anyway, what do I do tonight? She needs medicine. So another two hours in the car and another going to the pharmacy, not to mention the gas and the wear and tear on my car and my nerves!!!!!

If your mother has been with you for 2+ weeks, then you've just had your trial period of her living in your house. So how did it go?

I don't know what to suggest about the med refill emergency she's manipulated you into handling. I'll be anxious to see what the other more experienced folks suggest!

What's stopping her calling a cab and going to the pharmacy herself? Call her bluff. If they're that crucial she can go and get them.

I would bring this problem up at the pharmacy when you pick up the prescription, they must have other customers who don't drive or unable to visit in person.

Stop allowing her to use you as a doormat! Do you allow others to treat you in such a disrespectful manner? You are an adult and is allowed to establish boundaries and say no. Take a one month sabbatical from your mother and let her rely on herself to find ways to manage her life.

It sounds like it will be something that you will regret. My suggestion would be to take a little time to look into assisted living, or a seniors only apartment building nearby you. Can your mom afford to pay for either of those lifestyles by herself? If not, perhaps you and your siblings could help financially. As well, as you could visit her often. It doesn't sound as if the relationship with you mum is the best. Two women in the same kitchen isn't good even under the best of conditions. If your marriage is good, but your husband is so adamant about her not moving in, you may be jeopardizing your relationship with your husband. Perhaps he could take a turn and visit her on a regular basis, if she does move into AL or a seniors only apartment.

You could get with your husband and make a list of 'boundaries' (the things that you call stubborn, difficult....) Then let her know if she abides by the boundries you'll try it for 60 to 90 days. She probably won't like it and be willing to go to a retirement community. This is no different than rules you had to abide by as a child and you are free to communicate the house rules. Your house not her house. If she doesn't agree, doesn't abide, then all of the above comments are right but this way YOU will have closure on this subject.

The big risk with a "trial period" is what is your recourse if the trial fails for you and your husband, but your mom doesn't want to move out. You can set all sorts of rules and boundaries, but there's no enforcement ability with an adult (especially a parent who will be vexed at being told what to do by her child). With our kids, we could ground them or take away privileges.And if your husband isn't on board, then you're starting out with a huge problem. Often husbands have a clarity about things that their wives lack, because the wives are too enmeshed in the relationship. There's no halfway in this situation - you either maintain the boundary and protect your home sanctuary, or you are all in (possibly for years).

The trial will never go in your favor and will likely ended in a crisis where she's taken to a hospital and discharged 3 days later and you are scrambling for care for her
Find a reasonable continuing care facility that will allow her to age in place and where you won't have to drive 50 miles to visit - this doesn't mean you neglect her or are not involved in her care
In the meantime, see if you can have her meds either on auto refill or delivered by Mail - to you if necessary

Im with Churchmouse. Let her figure it out for herself if she's "Independent" have her call a cab or a neighbor. Send a cab to the pharmacy to do the pick up. Call a neighbor yourself and ask a one time favor. Then put the scripts on mail order.

Choose to not be a doormat.
"I'm sorry, I cannot do that" NO Explanation.
the words i had to say to my fathers (constant) demands.
one time I even sat on the ground after saying it and didnt move until he gave up.
any therapist will tell you , Unlike other mental diseases, there is NO dealing with a narcissist... there is no cure and they will Never see your side- only their own.

Well, i did not go to my moms for her medicine. She called my Brother in law and had him promise to get them tomorrow. He is super pissed. He has his own substantial caregiving responsibilities for his mother. He has told her he cannot do things for her. She doesn't care. She just keeps using him...and me....and my husband....and my sibling....and whoever she can find. Her excuse always starts out the same way - "well it's just....". Well it's just my medicine, well it's just milk, well it's just a doctors appointment. And on and on and on. She wants what she wants when she wants it.

cookie, I totally agree with what golden has written - her words describes my experience as well. My sister and I are currently dealing with this, as our mother is on a mission to move from NH back to my sister's home. It's a daily thing for us, in nearly every phone call. We do what Golden mentions - we state that that is not possible and we won't be discussing it. No explanations, no wordiness - just change the subject. You have to develop an armadillo shell that wards off the nastiness, the increased anger and all attempts from other parties (relatives) to guilt you into this.
Can you set up her meds with a pharmacy where you can manage her prescriptions and have it set to pay with her credit card? We did that for my FIL - when the script is ready for pickup, anyone in the family can get it for him and it's charged to his card.

I get the "tough cookie" for your mom - my mom's theme is song is "My Way".... yes, for real.

Good for you. You did not go. Good suggestions about the meds and the pharmacy. Set limits on how many trips you will make for what. If once a week or once every two weeks stress that you will not go in between so everything better be on the list. You may be able to find someone local to her who would make small trips, or a cab company who would pick up and deliver meds - at her cost. This is sheer her jerking you around and she will do it as long as you let her. Her choice if she doesn't want to comply - then she does without or figures something out on her own. You don't drive 50 miles for milk. She can manage without until your next trip. Set your schedule to what you are willing to do, and if she forgets then she does without and you mention to her that she may need a mini mental exam as her memory seems to be slipping.

Keep saying No. You did good!!!!

No, don't let her move in with you. You have already proven it just by posting to us.

Stick to your boundaries and their consequences. In the process keep your focus on your own health and well-being plus take no prisoners in standing firm.

onetoughcookie: I completely agree with GA's evaluation of the situation:

"You will not convince her that your home is not an option, so the only way to deal with it is to say "No!. I could not possibly do that!" or words to that effect, then walk away. Don't stay and argue with her. Possibly even send it to her in a note or email and also tell her that the subject is closed as far as you are concerned and you will not discuss it any further and stick to that."

Say "no" and walk away. Say "no" in an email or letter if you can't face her. But do not listen to her "pleas" (in quotes b/c they are the rantings of a crazy person). Don't listen to her and just WALK AWAY. Put your hands over your ears and sing "la la la la la la!" if you have to, until you're out of earshot. Do not answer the phone (if you don't have Call Display, now would be a good time to get it). If she writes or emails back, DON'T READ IT. Tell your sibling to do this too.

You have to be supportive, so find a place where she will be well cared for (and I was going to add "happy" but that isn't going to happen -- and wouldn't if she were at your place, either).

Send her flowers once a month. (If she doesn't like them, she can toss them, but you will at least know that you have her best interests at heart -- and that's enough -- keep your best interests at heart too).

I am SO sorry that you are going thru' this. Be strong!!

onetoughcookie, I'm so glad you didn't run to fetch her meds!

Sounds like your bil isn't going to agree to continue to do her bidding, so it's time for a more workable solution for her neediness.

You don't state your mother's age......but dementia could be creeping in, too. The old saw "as people age, they become more themselves" is often an overly-simplistic brush-off.

My mom was not toxic and beligerent like your mom. But a world-class control freak. The passive-aggressive variety. Mom became increasingly rigid and unreasonable in her later years. I was convinced there was no dementia. Because mom always knew day/president/people/when bills were due, etc.

Ha. Mom's autopsy told a different story. The story of a woman who should have been under the care of a neurologist. Not the fruitless efforts of a frazzled adult daughter (50-miles round trip), a clueless eldery sister and perplexed neighbors. Altho I am eternally grateful to those neighbors. An accident of geography turned into a kindness I can only hope to repay.

Keep your home as your sanctuary from mom's chaos and demands. Defend this boundary as if your life depends on it. Because it does.

Whatever mom's deal is, it will only get worse. Mom should be in her own space (closer to you, perhaps) with outside caregivers or in professional care. Do not entertain any other options.

Yes, mom will make stupid decisions. She will make you look bad. Sometimes on purpose. Sometimes by default. It's the reality of middle age, if your parent(s) are alive. (Yes.....TV and AARP depicts middle age as carefree empty-nesters riding bikes along a harbourfront. Those actors are paid well.)

The next XX years will suck no matter what. Draw a line literally and figuartively around your home and your husband. Mom has no claim on either of them. And they will outlast mom -- but only if you make sure of it.

My mom is 90. I know she is slipping. But she seems to keep most things straight. Her main problem is that she is lonely. She lives alone and has no friends or interests. We have all tried to get her involved with the senior center, church, gardening, reading, puzzles, letter writing, etc. Every attempt is met with immediate dismissal or sabotage. I once planted flowers for her. Two weeks later she went out and pulled them up. She said it was too much to care for. Likewise with any kind of distraction that we have tried to install. Bird feeders, hanging plants, potted tomatoes, cable TV, even long distance phone service.so she could call friends and relatives. She will not have any of it. But she continually complains and literally cries and sobs that she is lonely. The only solution is to come and live with me. I am her only solution to everything and she will not accept less. It is very hard to watch your mom cry and say I never though my children would abandon me.

Many good responses here. Hopefully many have resonated with you and your situation.... I still struggle w guilt at times after putting mom in a nursing home and getting ready to fulfill my retirement dream moving 700 miles from here to live at the beach... The last year with her nearly killed me!! So.....I would recommend you prepare your script in advance considering what words you will use. You could say something like.. "Im not okay wifh that"...."My therapist advises against it" "The house is too small" "My husband is not on board". Etc. Hugs to you.

Also...i forgot this. Check out Geriatric Care Manager for Mom and or Home Health Care. You can start by calling CICOA or Senior Center in her home town.

onetoughcookie - the fact that your husband doesn't want her in your joint home means "no". You cannot do this - it is his house too. Your mom is responsible for her happiness - you are not. Your mom is responsible for getting a social life and friends - you are not responsible for this. She has you enmeshed in her misery and feeling guilty for things you have no control over nor should you be responsible for. Counseling might help you see the issues and create boundaries - it did for me.

And there's your excuse! "My husband won't allow it." End of discussion.

Bear with me.

A few years ago I bought some perennials at Home Depot. They have a one year guarantee. I kept my receipt. When some of them failed to reemerge the next year I took my receipt back and asked for a refund. I was asked for the dead plants. Yea, right I keep dead plants!

I replied "You don't say that on your guarantee sign". For the next 20 minutes those were the only words I said. Even when the manager was called for back up I simply kept repeating "You don't say that on your guarantee sign"--like a parrot.

A small crowd had gathered to watch the "battle of wills". I either wore the employees down or they were embarrassed at the scenario. By facing up to two people who acted as if I was stealing their lunch money and sticking to my guns, I got my money back.

I doubt that you will be able to embarrass your mother into backing down but stick to YOUR guns. Just keep telling yourself "Yes Mother, you can move in with us--the minute Hell freezes over."

You can't control what your mother thinks or wants but you can control what you think or want. I assuming that you want to keep your husband around. One choice is living alone with only a selfish 90 year old woman, who may live for another 10 years, for company, and then living alone when she dies. If your husband goes, he will move on with his life and you will become emeshed in a Hell of your own making. The other choice is to believe that you and your marriage are more important than the wishes of a selfish old woman.

Repeat after me- "Mum, you know that I would have you to live with us in a heartbeat but -------- " then add whatever reason you can honestly give, and one that you can really believe. If you don't believe it, you will continue to be manipulated by this woman who is so frightened to be alone. It may not have a verb but the word "No" is a sentence.

Oh dear, as I read this it sounds as if I am preaching and telling you what to do. Not my intention. I just want to give you some support as you live through the horrible situation in which you find yourself, especially one which is not of your making.

I think that you already DO know what to do. You just need to get the message through to your mother. Parrot, parrot, parrot. Best wishes for strength and for success in getting a solution that you can live with.

You have not abandoned your mother. That is manipulative hogwash.

cookie, fyi - one of the posters on this forum, cmagnum, has a very good way of verbalizing what it's like from the husband's perspective. His postings made me look at my husband's place in this drama, and made it easier to set boundaries with my mom.

cookie - she is pushing your guilt and obligation buttons when she says that. Don't give her an audience for it and don't sympathize. It is all manipulation. Say you will talk to her later when she is feeling better. You are NOT, I repeat NOT the only solution to her loneliness nor are you responsible for her happiness or any other of her emotions.

Here is an example of setting boundaries that I posted on another thread,

Mother - “I get so sad when you and your sister don’t come see me. I get very lonely, you know.”

Daughter - “Why don’t you go out more, mom? Make some friends.”

Mother “Oh, I’ve tried. Nobody likes an old lady like me. You two are my children. You’re supposed to take care of me.”

Daughter -“We do.”

Mother - “No, you don’t. I spend so much time alone. You have no idea how hard it can be sometimes.”

Daughter - “Mom, I love you and will always be here when you need me. But you are still responsible for your own loneliness. Jennifer and I are not the only solution to all of your problems.”

The old family guilt situation. --Sound familiar to anyone?

Please learn about detaching -

"Learning how to detach with love will revolutionize your life and relationships. People in difficult relationships have trouble separating themselves from other people’s actions and reactions. Everything other people do affects them at some level: emotionally, physically, financially, mentally, and spiritually. They take the blame thrown at them. They feel responsible for the other person’s choices. They are upset by the moods. They adjust their actions based on the accusations and threats. They allow their lives to be turned upside down by the crises. They bail the person out and attempt to fix things that aren’t theirs to fix. They are constantly reacting to the other person instead of living their own lives.
Detaching is about separating yourself emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually from other people and what they do."
from changemyrelationship.com

((((((((hugs))))) You can do it!