Mom is constantly sending money to any charity that sends her a request in the mail. She also pays bills twice or sometimes not at all. She is very suspicious of us children taking control of this aspect of her life. Thank you in advance!
Yes, I'm like our friend above, the scammer got my mom good. I feel like I can write a book, with all that I've gone through to keep mom from potentially going to jail at 86, behind the scammers. My bro and I now have "Guardian of Person", and I'm her Rep-Payee of SS. But I'm thinking I might have to go to court to get the power to change her mail to a po box to stop scammers from getting mail to her. I haven't' tried just going to the post office with guardian of person papers/incomp but I will try that first but not sure if its enough to change mail address to stop scammers. Our other predicament... mom needs 24hr supv (schizophrenia, and vascular dementia), but makes to much with social security to qualify for Medicaid to help pay for a dementia care facility. Both her name and mines is on the deed to her house (at her request, when she was in right mind 7yrs ago). And no, it's not about the house where I'm concerned, my name is only a place holder for the family; I own my own house 3 blocks away. So we're desperately trying to figure out our next move... If any suggestions, I would appreciate a response. Another option is to let Dept of Social Service (can of worms she opened with false reports) take over, but we don't want the state to step in because she might end up anywhere in some system. We're unsure of next move, but she can't be left alone and I can't be with her due to her resentment towards me for in her mind taking over her life... We are totally looking for answers..
Wow, sunflo ... I am so sorry to read of your experience. I had no idea doctors would be reluctant or unwilling to write statements of incompetency under these circumstances! It makes you wonder just how bad things have to get before all the "pros" will feel their behinds are sufficiently covered to allow them to act ... I particularly do not understand your mother's PCP passing the buck to whatever attending physician happens to be on duty at the next ER his patient lands at. Good lord ... is this the emerging standard of care in this country?
Your idea of keeping a log of all observations (and sending these to your mother's physician) seems like a good one. I don't know ... would it be a good idea to send these to your Mom's physicians via certified mail, so that they're on notice that there's a formal paper trail relating to their being notified of what you're seeing? Maybe if they thought NOT doing something could come back to bite them later, they'd be more inclined to act ... but honestly, I have no idea. I will be interested to see what other people have experienced. I guess I understand the principle that being declared incompetent should not be easy if you aren't, in fact, incompetent ... but this doesn't sound like a "gray area" sort of situation.
Thank you so much for sharing the challenges you're experiencing -- it is extremely important that people understand what a "springing" power of attorney is and requires. Given what you describe, I doubt your mother would have signed an "immediately effective" POA in any event ... but other people in other situations will surely benefit from reading about what you're going through. Hang in there!
Thanks Connie, I requested thru geriatric psyschiatrist, neurologist, Community Services Board and PCP (all whom had seen her within last 7 months for various evaluations)! All have not done so even though their medical diagnosis is dementia, paranoia, dellusional while she was in their care -- and several having prescribed antipsychotics, Namenda, Aricept!. The cops have been called 4 times in one month period (by my mother or concerned neighbors). I had her set up to be admitted in a lovely memory care facility 1/2 mile from my home (I live in another state 6 hrs away). No one wanted to step up to give me the statement needed to invoke the POA. Two elder law attorneys said we could go to court for guardianship but said it wouldn't necessarily be the good outcome -- besides that it was quite expensive for attorneys, court fees, independent evaluations, and not expeditious. It seems that none of the doctors want to stick their necks out and are waiting for something bad to happen. Her PCP says, if she gets picked up again or sent to hospital again then "have the attending sign something requiring full time care in a facility". I'm venting; sorry for the rant and I DO SO APPRECIATE the support and advice here. I've learned tremendously through my experience and although my outcome has not been good; I wish others differently. PS. I keep a log of all my observations regarding delusions, fantasies, bad food in refrigerator, police calls, etc. -- and send these to physicians even though my mom won't sign HIPPA so they'll have when she goes to appointments. I do this to build a history and have this as part of her medical file.
sunflo, I suggest that you take your mom to a geriatric psychiatrist in order to get a statement of incompetency. If you need a referral to do so, and the current PCP will not comply, I would change your mom's PCP to a physician that specializes in geriatrics. Good Luck!
I'm in the middle of this now. My mom (90 with dementia) and spent a brief time in behavioral health (dementia; psychosis). My parents were always extremely secretive about finances and this continued following my dad's death. Mom has always been sharp on all the finances but over the last 18 mo we noticed lapsed bills (a couple) and she would collect checks for months without cashing. She would "save up" so she could go to bank and collect big chunk of cash which she kept in house and purse.
We had her mail forwarded to our house over last 2 months. We also set up her main bank electronically. This way we could deposit all her checks and electronically pay her bills. We explained this to her but she doesn't really understand. But we feel at least checks are deposited, bills are paid particularly insurance, heat, phone.
She returned to her home and realizes she isn't getting her bills or checks. I explained to her how we were "helping her" and that she can get money anytime she wants by going to the bank. (We aren't on any accounts). SHE IS BALLISTIC and yesterday demanded that I return her mail and stop receiving her mail. She threatened police/etc.
1. So, we have set up her insurance as auto pay 2. We have her checking electronic so we can track everything on-line 3. We just stopped having her mail forwarded via her demand 4. I coached her that she has to deposit or cash checks and stop saving them so that they don't stop paying and that she must pay her bills. 5. We will monitor because we still have electronic access of her bank account.
We recently paid a number of doctor/hospital bills, in home care, etc when she was hospitalized under temporary detention order. She was livid when I explained that the bills were paid. She said "I will not pay those bills, they took me against my will, I will not pay any of those". This was several thousand dollars in bills. She has accused me of "stealing from her". I told her go to bank and get a statement and she will see that everything is accounted for.
We discovered that she had ripped up a personal property tax bill because "she decided not to pay and was insistent it was paid thru "taxes charged on a new car purchase 3 yrs ago". We paid that (it was 6 mo old)
This is what we are dealing with. We have DPOA but since a doctor won't sign incompetency -- we can't invoke it (its a dumb "springing type DPOA"). Her PCP advised that "we should" take control of her finances in our last visit (2 months ago) and stated so in front of her -- but he would not write "incompetency" letter for us.
It is very hard and we have tried to do what is right, but at this point I no longer have the strength to battle with her or drag through court. We will monitor to make sure her electric isnt turned off. Luckily my mom to date is stingy with her money so I don't have to worry about her buying or donating too much.
It sounds like she has not given you POA, so go to your local Probate Court and file for guardianship/conservatorship. It is about $250, you fill out your own papers, present all your documents to a judge and it would be nice to have a doctor's diagnosis too. Then talk to her bank and tell them nothing gets paid unless you co-sign it, or better yet, change the account no. Just make sure to document all your handling of HER money. Best of luck!
I also disagree with terrim. The sad truth is that most people with dementia or Alzheimer's outlive their money unless they are fairly wealthy to begin with. In my area there are a limited number of AL or memory care facilities that accept medicaid residents, and most of them only designate a few beds. When the money runs out, the resident often has to move to a facility with an available medicaid bed, sometimes a significant distance away. This makes things difficult for both the resident and the family members. Letting scammers take a significant amount of my mother's money would have made this happen sooner, and I would certainly feel guilty if I failed to protect her from them. My goal, and I imagine the goal of most of the people on this forum, is to make mom's money last as long as she lives, or at least until her dementia progresses to the point that she is unaware of her surroundings and situation. I doubt if many of us expect an inheritance.
I've found that getting the mail prior to your loved one getting to the mailbox and leaving the "junk" mail for them works wonders: We make certain that we have access to any important information or "charitable" organizations. (My husband and I do this with my dad, and it works perfectly!) I sign my dad up for new car ads, time share condominiums, insurance, etc., so that he can receive a LOT of mail. Also, I found it helpful to let dad speak with pesky telemarketers on the telephone; therefore, he feels important because he is able to speak with different people on the phone. (I know that some of you all may not agree with my tactics and every individual situation is different, so, one must be a bit creative to figure out whatever makes mom or dad happy when you are dealing with Alzheimers or dementia).
Sorry to pipe in again, but I just had to respond to terrim's post ... while it is sadly true that some grown children may only be concerned about a parent's finances from the standpoint of keeping an eye on the money they hope will be left to them, I caution against characterizing this as the obvious or even likely motivation of a grown child trying to care for a parent with a progressive dementia.
As so many of you have experienced, in the earlier stages of these diseases, a person can still be capable of living largely independently, but no longer be capable of managing his or her finances. My Dad is absolutely in this position. In going over the results of extensive testing with us, the neuropsychologist stated outright that while my Dad would likely be able to continue to live independently for some time yet (with the assistance of caregivers to "check in" on him, provide company, and help him run errands), his tests showed sufficient impairment in executive function that I should be taking over all financial management (much of which I had already done, because this was already obvious to me).
Nor is there a hard-and-fast line between someone being “deep in dementia” – and therefore needing financial oversight – and being capable of managing his or her own affairs. If you, as a stranger, were to meet and talk to my Dad just casually, you might not even "see" his dementia right away. It takes a while to really pick up on the repetition, the forgetfulness, the inability to do simple math calculations, the tendency to try to pay again for groceries that have already been purchased, or to try to leave the store without paying for them at all. If you didn’t go into his house, you wouldn’t see the hundreds of heartbreaking index cards on which he scribbles reminder messages to himself (many of them duplicates because he forgets that he’s already written them a hundred times). Despite these things, I would not describe him as "deep in dementia" ... the neuropsychologist characterizes his stage as "late-early" or "early-moderate." His short-term memory is bad, but his long-term memory seems unimpaired at this point. He has no trouble recognizing people or carrying on a conversation about what he read in the paper this week, or telling you a joke he heard on the radio. But he probably won’t remember whether he went to a restaurant for breakfast four hours ago. He can care reliably for his beloved cats, but his ability to balance a checkbook is completely gone (this from a man with a master's in mathematics from a top university and a meticulous recordkeeper my entire life) -- he no longer understands the concept that he needs to account for deposits as well as withdrawals, or for automatic withdrawals for bill-paying (that he set up himself years ago).
Sorry to go on ... my point is simply that trying to preserve Dad’s money for some kind of hypothetical inheritance is not even on the table for me, or for other people in this situation. What I AM trying to preserve now are, first, Dad’s funds so that they’ll be available for his eventual, inevitable long-term memory care – and second, my OWN savings, scraped together from years of working, for my own retirement and eventual health care needs.
Dad is now 73, and has a living aunt who is something like 98. It is clear that he will need long-term memory care at some stage – hopefully, not for several years at least – and that this care could be needed for many years. The cost of such care will likely wipe out his own savings in the first three to five years. After that -- if my state or his, both of which have filial support laws on the books, joins the budding trend of actually enforcing these -- I will find myself legally responsible for picking up the tab for his remaining care. Such care can amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (just today, I met a neighbor who told me that his late mother’s care in an Alzheimer’s facility in Wisconsin had run $240,000 annually). At that rate, my own savings would be quickly decimated. I am in my late 40s, with limited time to rebuild my nest egg if it is confiscated to cover my father’s eventual nursing bills. (Not to mention that both of my husband’s parents are still alive, and our savings could be hit yet again if he were held legally responsible for their long-term care bills, should they need such care and should their own savings be insufficient to cover it. (This is not so much a problem, of course, for people whose parents suffer from illnesses other than dementia ... but keep in mind that the dementia rates are increasing every year.) My husband and I don’t have children coming up behind us to cover our bills, and wouldn’t want them to be forced to do so if we did.
Whether or not these laws will start to be enforced in earnest is not clear. They certainly have the potential to be devastating, particularly to people already squeezed trying to put their kids through school and save for their own old age. The fact that a few states have started to use these laws is very frightening – particularly given the poor economy and the increasing likelihood of the state and federal governments looking to shift financial responsibility away from programs like Medicaid and onto private individuals.
This bleak reality puts me – and other grown children of parents with progressive dementias – in the position of not being able simply to sit back, shrug, and say, “Well, it’s his money, if that’s the way he wants to spend it” when we see a parent losing cash, giving money away (both to scammers and legitimate charities), or making other questionable financial decisions.
For us, it isn’t about thinking we should get the money instead. When I say, “I’m worried that Dad might be giving away my money,” I don’t mean that he’s spending money I might otherwise have inherited. I mean that the money he’s giving away might literally be money I have to make up out of my own pocket to cover his care bills down the road if he runs out of savings. And while of course I’d do what I could to help care for my Dad in any case -- with or without support laws -- the reality is that dementia care is extremely expensive, and a person can live with the condition for a long time.
Obviously, filial support laws aren’t the only reason to get involved as early as you can when you start to see a parent’s financial management skills slipping. :-) But they are one very real reason for a grown child to be concerned about an elder’s financial matters that have nothing to do with scrabbling for an inheritance. I know the latter DOES happen ... but again, I caution against jumping to the conclusion that this is an adult child's motivation for trying to take over when he or she sees things are going bad. I hope this makes sense. :-)
I believe that what terrim is saying is unfair. My husband isn't is well oriented to person and place but not to time. He has a very large vocabulary and speaks knowledgeably about a number of subjects such that you might not even be able to tell that there is anything wrong with him during the course of a fairly short conversation. However, in spite of the fact that he is not "deep in dementia", my husband is not able to manage his own finances because he forgets conversations and events, often within minutes of when they occur. He is therefore not able to remember appointments, to bathe or change his clothes, whether he has taken his medication or, certainly, whether he has paid bills. I handle our money but if I weren't here, one of our adult children would have to do this for their father, not because "have their own eyes on the money they hope will be left to them" but because someone would have to do this. While I am sure there are instances like those terin describes, it is unfair to suggest that this is the norm.
It is her money, you know. If her Alzheimer's out of control at this point, you could probably be named guardian but I don't believe in grown children seizing control of their elders's mail or money unless the elder is deep in dementia or Alzheimer's. I hate to say it but for the most part, the adult children have their own eyes on the money they hope will be left to them. One of my aunts was this way.
I am in this same situation with my Dad, who is in the late-early stage of fronto-temporal dementia. He doesn't order from catalogs, but he does respond to fundraising requests ... and every time he gives, as you say, 10 new requests pour in. I have talked to him before about limiting the amount he gives to no more than a certain number, but when the requests arrive, they come with a preprinted "suggested" amount ... and he inevitably writes a check for that number, whatever it may be, as if he were paying a bill! To make matters worse, some of these charities/nonprofits now have his phone number, and call him in advance and get him to "pledge" a certain amount over the phone, and then send him a "bill" for that amount. So again, the numbers go up.
Of course, the charities/nonprofits will do nothing to remove the name of a vulnerable elderly person from their lists -- instead, they sell and rent these names amongst themselves, making the problem worse for people in our situation. The government will do nothing either (I have read horror stories of people in similar situations with elderly family members bleeding money to political fundraising requests). And now there is this threat of those states that have them enforcing antiquated, unconstitutional, and immoral "filial support laws," so that the money Dad keeps giving away now may turn out to be my money later -- not because he's giving away money I might otherwise have inherited, but because he's giving away money he is likely to need for his own long-term care down the road -- and if/when he comes up "short" in his ability to pay nursing home bills later, I may be legally forced to pay what he cannot. (This makes the government's unwillingness to help us stop charities, politicians, and retailers from preying on the vulnerable elderly even more despicable!)
So I am taking a few steps.
First, I will be renting a second PO Box in the town where I live for my Dad (I have one already for my own mail). I have a POA for my Dad, and will use it to have his mail permanently forwarded to that PO Box. I will filter this mail and send on to him only the mail that is legitimate. (I have read online that you do NOT want to have mail in this situation forwarded to your own home, because then you will never get off these lists yourself.) I have set up almost all of Dad's bills to be paid automatically, so the delay in getting "important stuff" shouldn't hurt him. And since I'll open all potential bills on my end to see if there's anything I should be dealing with, I shouldn't miss anything important.
I talked to Dad about this on my last visit to him (he lives in a state away from me). I was worried that he would be unhappy, but he actually sounded relieved ... he hates getting those fundraising requests, but they make him "feel terrible," and then he feels he has to respond. He'd rather not see them in the first place. Also, he hates "processing" his mail (i.e., opening letters, setting aside the stuff for me to file the next time I come up, and shredding stuff that might be a security problem but shouldn't be saved).
The second thing I have done is called the company supplying telephone service to my Dad's address and had his account put into my name. If the telephone solicitations continue to be a problem (which they may not, after I have forwarded Dad's mail to my address so that he never receives the follow-up "bills" to pledges), I will simply change Dad's phone number to a new, unlisted one. I will give the new number only to the people who need to be able to call Dad. Depending on my Dad's mental state if and when I need to do this, I may not even tell him the number has changed -- he doesn't drive anymore, and I'd make sure his caregivers all have the correct number.
So this is what I'm doing/contemplating doing in a similar situation ... whether or not you can do the same or some variation on the same will depend entirely on how resistant your loved one is to the idea of giving up some control, or on whether you can assume this control without their noticing. Weezy27, you note that your mother is currently "suspicious" of you kids taking over this activity ... is there any specific reason for her to be untrusting (i.e., has any of the brood borrowed money and not returned it? Is anyone unemployed or in other financial distress? Is there any history of financial irresponsibility)? If so, then be relentless about cutting that person (or people) from being given any financial control when you talk with your Mom about setting up a POA. What stage of Alzheimer's is your mother in? Does she understand what is happening to her, and what the course of the disease is? If she is still capable of rational thought, now is the time to talk frankly with her about the need for setting up a POA while she is still of sound-enough mind to make important decisions and execute legal documents -- and about the fact that at some point, someone else WILL need to take over her finances (not least to manage bills and taxes). If there has been a formal diagnosis of a progressive dementia, this is not a matter of "if," but "when."
If you have not yet done so, consider talking to her about various options for how this second-person financial management could be set up in advance, and the pros and cons of each. For example, if she doesn't set up a plan in advance, when the time comes, your only choice may to file for a guardianship/conservatorship. (This may already be the case if she is past the point of being able to execute legal documents, but it doesn't sound from your question as if you think this is the case.) As I understand it, filing for guardianship/conservatorship is expensive, time-consuming, potentially embarrassing for the person for whom guardianship/conservatorship is being sought, and results in a fair amount of continuing, intrusive governmental oversight and invasion of family privacy (yes, all designed to ensure that the guardian/conservator is behaving properly, but still, another pain to deal with for an adult child who is legitimately just trying to help care for a parent in need). If your mother remains resistant to the idea of having one or more of her children assume this role, is there anyone else (a sibling? A family friend?) she might prefer? There are professionals who can be hired for this purpose (but again, monitoring this will add to the burden of the adult child/children trying to care for her).
Finally, assuming there has been a formal diagnosis, this may be a discussion your mother's doctor or neuropsychologist could have with her. My Dad's neuropsychologist was very straightforward with both of us at the appointment where my Dad's condition was diagnosed about the progression of the disease and about the need to ensure that decisions were made now about how to handle financial matters at time goes on. I had by that time already taken over a lot of my Dad's finances, but I mention this because my Dad seemed very open to what the doctor was telling him, and maybe your Mom would be less suspicious if the discussion were initiated by a trusted person outside the family.
I hope this helps a little ... everyone's situation is just different enough so that what works in one family may not work in another. Best of luck to you and your family ... I know this is hard!
I had a similar experience with my mom. Although I had held POA for both of my parents for several years before my dad passed away, my dad was mentally sharp and able to handle his own affairs until just a few days before his death. Although I knew that mom had some dementia, I didn't want to just barge in and take away any of her independence. She was living in a retirement community (IL) 100 miles away and I was driving two or three times each month to take her to run errands, help her with meds, etc. Because I was concerned about her ability to keep up with bills, I asked if she needed help balancing her checkbook. She agreed, and I took the opportunity to see where her money was going. She had written several hundred dollars worth of checks to "charities" with names that sounded similar to reputable, well known charities, but were not. A little internet checking showed that these were basically scam charities that donated very little to their cause, and kept the rest. I discovered that these people would call mom and plead their case, asking her to pledge money. Then they would send her what looked like an invoice, requesting payment. Of course they shared their "lists" with other questionable charities, so the requests snowballed. I tried to explain to mom that most of her donations were going into the pockets of people who were undoubtedly much better off that she was, and she agreed to stop. However, a couple of months later, she sent more money. At that point I appealed to her respect for my father, who worked hard and saved all of his life to provide for their retirement and asked her to think about what he would say about this. She agreed to turn over her checkbook to me at that point.
However, the story doesn't end there. I had left her with a credit card so that she could shop with friends or on scheduled trips from her retirement facility. She was also able to withdraw cash as needed from her bank. A couple of months later her credit card bill had a charge from one of these charities! They had called her to ask for another donation and when she told them she didn't have a checkbook, they said, no problem, just give us your credit card number. I could not believe how ruthless these people were! I tried to call some of them to get her name off their list, and tried to get the credit card charge refunded, but had no success. Mom is now in AL in the same town where I live due to her worsening dementia, and the only money she has access to are the nickels that she uses to play jackpot bingo. I feel that without intervention she would have given away most if not all, of her money. The moral of this story is that just having POA is not enough. If your relative has access to any funds, these vultures will try anything to get it. You have to take charge before they are reduced to poverty.
I would encourage you to move on this quickly. It will be in your Mother's best interest to not have her money scammed from her. Loving her well at this point may feel a bit heavy-handed, but the fact that she is making consistent mistakes with her money demonstrates a need for help. As Cindy said, you don't have to take over her life...just get a level of control over her finances. For me, that meant having to go through a quite intense legal process to become my Mom's conservator (recently diagnosed with Stage IV Alzheimer's). That was after she lost over $30,000 to domestic and international scam artists. I could seriously write a really sad book about this. Makes me so angry to think of people and businesses preying upon weaker people. Anyway...continue to express love to your Mom in a multitude of ways, but being her financial advocate right now is a very strategic thing for her future and is a loving thing to do. Blessings on your journey...
none of this is easy. Perhaps you could show mom where she has paid a bill twice and ask her if she would mind you helping her, while she is there with you. I used to approach it with my mom as still her responsibility, but with an extra head in case it's needed.
Catalog Choice is a good organization. I am a member and have a long list of catalogs not to receive. I was sneaking to cancel the catalogs, when one of the companies (Harriett Wright) wrote my father to let him know his subscription had been cancelled. If you are sneaking to cancel, don't cancel this company or they will blow your cover! That day was not a good day at the house. My father was very upset, since he was addicted to catalogs and ordering.
Some catalog companies did honor Catalog Choice requests. Others didn't. The end result was that it barely put a dent in the number of catalogs we received. We used to get so many catalogs that recycling them was a major chore. Now that no one is ordering, the numbers have gone down. The real trick to getting rid of the catalogs is to not order from any. As soon as someone orders from a catalog, they get put on the sucker list.
The online service CatalogChoice might be a good option. Online, using the mailing labels from catalogs and, I believe, other junk mailers you can get elder's name removed from the mailing lists.
Weezy, I went through this, too. My parents did not want to give up control of their lives and my father loved to order from catalogs and give to his favorite organizations. Unfortunately, the more he gave, the more they asked. They were worthy organizations, but the fundraising is heartless. And, unfortunately, only a very small percentage of the money actually went to help the cause. The rest went to the fundraisers.
My parents were not deemed mentally incompetent, so there was little I could do until they were ready to turn over the reins to me. This didn't happen until after my father died. I don't have POA, but my mother was totally lost when it came to paying bills and taking care of finances. She added my name to her bank accounts, so I could handle her banking. I also opened a charge account for her with my name as an authorized user. I set her utility bills to be paid automatically where possible and from my computer otherwise. Occasionally she still goes ballistic when she sees my name on the bank accounts or realizes things are not being paid in the old-fashion way. I just reassure her, telling her she had asked me to handle things and that she had added my name to the account.
Weezy, your mother may soon realize she needs help with her finances. Until then, is there any way you can get to her mailbox before she does? I find that losing envelopes and catalogs on the way to the front door works wonderfully well. I would sneak out later and properly dispose of the litter left by the doorstep. If you work during the day, this isn't an option, of course. What I wish is that the catalog and fundraising companies would vaporize... or at least stop targeting vulnerable people, wanting more and more from them.
Cindy Laverty gives excellent advice. Someone needs to have POA so as to be responsible for your mother's finances since it is clear that she is no longer able to do this herself. Even if you have POA, it might be a good idea to be a little "creative" about getting the mail. I get the mail out of the mailbox when my husband isn't there and throw away all the junk mail before he sees it since he tends to be a hoarder who would "just want to take a look at it" and then never throw it away. I also put all bills aside and only give him one or two things to look at so that he doesn't realize what I have taken charge of the rest of the mail. I don't do this to be sneaky but rather to avoid having him be aware of the fact that I am handling our finances since is no longer able to do this. I consider this a kindness since he gets very agitated if he thinks I am taking control of things that he would like to believe he can still handle himself.
Who has Power of Attorney for Finances? If she still has POA then you need to meet with an attorney and get legal advice about how to intervene especially if you are concerned about her financial decision-making. You don't have to take control of her life, but if she is not able to make smart financial decisions then someone has to step in and assist. The POA is the important document here. If you have it or one of your siblings does, then you can step in and help out. If not, you really need to seek legal counsel.
Your idea of keeping a log of all observations (and sending these to your mother's physician) seems like a good one. I don't know ... would it be a good idea to send these to your Mom's physicians via certified mail, so that they're on notice that there's a formal paper trail relating to their being notified of what you're seeing? Maybe if they thought NOT doing something could come back to bite them later, they'd be more inclined to act ... but honestly, I have no idea. I will be interested to see what other people have experienced. I guess I understand the principle that being declared incompetent should not be easy if you aren't, in fact, incompetent ... but this doesn't sound like a "gray area" sort of situation.
Thank you so much for sharing the challenges you're experiencing -- it is extremely important that people understand what a "springing" power of attorney is and requires. Given what you describe, I doubt your mother would have signed an "immediately effective" POA in any event ... but other people in other situations will surely benefit from reading about what you're going through. Hang in there!
I suggest that you take your mom to a geriatric psychiatrist in order to get a statement of incompetency. If you need a referral to do so, and the current PCP will not comply, I would change your mom's PCP to a physician that specializes in geriatrics. Good Luck!
We had her mail forwarded to our house over last 2 months. We also set up her main bank electronically. This way we could deposit all her checks and electronically pay her bills. We explained this to her but she doesn't really understand. But we feel at least checks are deposited, bills are paid particularly insurance, heat, phone.
She returned to her home and realizes she isn't getting her bills or checks. I explained to her how we were "helping her" and that she can get money anytime she wants by going to the bank. (We aren't on any accounts). SHE IS BALLISTIC and yesterday demanded that I return her mail and stop receiving her mail. She threatened police/etc.
1. So, we have set up her insurance as auto pay
2. We have her checking electronic so we can track everything on-line
3. We just stopped having her mail forwarded via her demand
4. I coached her that she has to deposit or cash checks and stop saving them so that they don't stop paying and that she must pay her bills.
5. We will monitor because we still have electronic access of her bank account.
We recently paid a number of doctor/hospital bills, in home care, etc when she was hospitalized under temporary detention order. She was livid when I explained that the bills were paid. She said "I will not pay those bills, they took me against my will, I will not pay any of those". This was several thousand dollars in bills. She has accused me of "stealing from her". I told her go to bank and get a statement and she will see that everything is accounted for.
We discovered that she had ripped up a personal property tax bill because "she decided not to pay and was insistent it was paid thru "taxes charged on a new car purchase 3 yrs ago". We paid that (it was 6 mo old)
This is what we are dealing with. We have DPOA but since a doctor won't sign incompetency -- we can't invoke it (its a dumb "springing type DPOA"). Her PCP advised that "we should" take control of her finances in our last visit (2 months ago) and stated so in front of her -- but he would not write "incompetency" letter for us.
It is very hard and we have tried to do what is right, but at this point I no longer have the strength to battle with her or drag through court. We will monitor to make sure her electric isnt turned off. Luckily my mom to date is stingy with her money so I don't have to worry about her buying or donating too much.
As so many of you have experienced, in the earlier stages of these diseases, a person can still be capable of living largely independently, but no longer be capable of managing his or her finances. My Dad is absolutely in this position. In going over the results of extensive testing with us, the neuropsychologist stated outright that while my Dad would likely be able to continue to live independently for some time yet (with the assistance of caregivers to "check in" on him, provide company, and help him run errands), his tests showed sufficient impairment in executive function that I should be taking over all financial management (much of which I had already done, because this was already obvious to me).
Nor is there a hard-and-fast line between someone being “deep in dementia” – and therefore needing financial oversight – and being capable of managing his or her own affairs. If you, as a stranger, were to meet and talk to my Dad just casually, you might not even "see" his dementia right away. It takes a while to really pick up on the repetition, the forgetfulness, the inability to do simple math calculations, the tendency to try to pay again for groceries that have already been purchased, or to try to leave the store without paying for them at all. If you didn’t go into his house, you wouldn’t see the hundreds of heartbreaking index cards on which he scribbles reminder messages to himself (many of them duplicates because he forgets that he’s already written them a hundred times). Despite these things, I would not describe him as "deep in dementia" ... the neuropsychologist characterizes his stage as "late-early" or "early-moderate." His short-term memory is bad, but his long-term memory seems unimpaired at this point. He has no trouble recognizing people or carrying on a conversation about what he read in the paper this week, or telling you a joke he heard on the radio. But he probably won’t remember whether he went to a restaurant for breakfast four hours ago. He can care reliably for his beloved cats, but his ability to balance a checkbook is completely gone (this from a man with a master's in mathematics from a top university and a meticulous recordkeeper my entire life) -- he no longer understands the concept that he needs to account for deposits as well as withdrawals, or for automatic withdrawals for bill-paying (that he set up himself years ago).
Sorry to go on ... my point is simply that trying to preserve Dad’s money for some kind of hypothetical inheritance is not even on the table for me, or for other people in this situation. What I AM trying to preserve now are, first, Dad’s funds so that they’ll be available for his eventual, inevitable long-term memory care – and second, my OWN savings, scraped together from years of working, for my own retirement and eventual health care needs.
Dad is now 73, and has a living aunt who is something like 98. It is clear that he will need long-term memory care at some stage – hopefully, not for several years at least – and that this care could be needed for many years. The cost of such care will likely wipe out his own savings in the first three to five years. After that -- if my state or his, both of which have filial support laws on the books, joins the budding trend of actually enforcing these -- I will find myself legally responsible for picking up the tab for his remaining care. Such care can amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year (just today, I met a neighbor who told me that his late mother’s care in an Alzheimer’s facility in Wisconsin had run $240,000 annually). At that rate, my own savings would be quickly decimated. I am in my late 40s, with limited time to rebuild my nest egg if it is confiscated to cover my father’s eventual nursing bills. (Not to mention that both of my husband’s parents are still alive, and our savings could be hit yet again if he were held legally responsible for their long-term care bills, should they need such care and should their own savings be insufficient to cover it. (This is not so much a problem, of course, for people whose parents suffer from illnesses other than dementia ... but keep in mind that the dementia rates are increasing every year.) My husband and I don’t have children coming up behind us to cover our bills, and wouldn’t want them to be forced to do so if we did.
Whether or not these laws will start to be enforced in earnest is not clear. They certainly have the potential to be devastating, particularly to people already squeezed trying to put their kids through school and save for their own old age. The fact that a few states have started to use these laws is very frightening – particularly given the poor economy and the increasing likelihood of the state and federal governments looking to shift financial responsibility away from programs like Medicaid and onto private individuals.
This bleak reality puts me – and other grown children of parents with progressive dementias – in the position of not being able simply to sit back, shrug, and say, “Well, it’s his money, if that’s the way he wants to spend it” when we see a parent losing cash, giving money away (both to scammers and legitimate charities), or making other questionable financial decisions.
For us, it isn’t about thinking we should get the money instead. When I say, “I’m worried that Dad might be giving away my money,” I don’t mean that he’s spending money I might otherwise have inherited. I mean that the money he’s giving away might literally be money I have to make up out of my own pocket to cover his care bills down the road if he runs out of savings. And while of course I’d do what I could to help care for my Dad in any case -- with or without support laws -- the reality is that dementia care is extremely expensive, and a person can live with the condition for a long time.
Obviously, filial support laws aren’t the only reason to get involved as early as you can when you start to see a parent’s financial management skills slipping. :-) But they are one very real reason for a grown child to be concerned about an elder’s financial matters that have nothing to do with scrabbling for an inheritance. I know the latter DOES happen ... but again, I caution against jumping to the conclusion that this is an adult child's motivation for trying to take over when he or she sees things are going bad. I hope this makes sense. :-)
Of course, the charities/nonprofits will do nothing to remove the name of a vulnerable elderly person from their lists -- instead, they sell and rent these names amongst themselves, making the problem worse for people in our situation. The government will do nothing either (I have read horror stories of people in similar situations with elderly family members bleeding money to political fundraising requests). And now there is this threat of those states that have them enforcing antiquated, unconstitutional, and immoral "filial support laws," so that the money Dad keeps giving away now may turn out to be my money later -- not because he's giving away money I might otherwise have inherited, but because he's giving away money he is likely to need for his own long-term care down the road -- and if/when he comes up "short" in his ability to pay nursing home bills later, I may be legally forced to pay what he cannot. (This makes the government's unwillingness to help us stop charities, politicians, and retailers from preying on the vulnerable elderly even more despicable!)
So I am taking a few steps.
First, I will be renting a second PO Box in the town where I live for my Dad (I have one already for my own mail). I have a POA for my Dad, and will use it to have his mail permanently forwarded to that PO Box. I will filter this mail and send on to him only the mail that is legitimate. (I have read online that you do NOT want to have mail in this situation forwarded to your own home, because then you will never get off these lists yourself.) I have set up almost all of Dad's bills to be paid automatically, so the delay in getting "important stuff" shouldn't hurt him. And since I'll open all potential bills on my end to see if there's anything I should be dealing with, I shouldn't miss anything important.
I talked to Dad about this on my last visit to him (he lives in a state away from me). I was worried that he would be unhappy, but he actually sounded relieved ... he hates getting those fundraising requests, but they make him "feel terrible," and then he feels he has to respond. He'd rather not see them in the first place. Also, he hates "processing" his mail (i.e., opening letters, setting aside the stuff for me to file the next time I come up, and shredding stuff that might be a security problem but shouldn't be saved).
The second thing I have done is called the company supplying telephone service to my Dad's address and had his account put into my name. If the telephone solicitations continue to be a problem (which they may not, after I have forwarded Dad's mail to my address so that he never receives the follow-up "bills" to pledges), I will simply change Dad's phone number to a new, unlisted one. I will give the new number only to the people who need to be able to call Dad. Depending on my Dad's mental state if and when I need to do this, I may not even tell him the number has changed -- he doesn't drive anymore, and I'd make sure his caregivers all have the correct number.
So this is what I'm doing/contemplating doing in a similar situation ... whether or not you can do the same or some variation on the same will depend entirely on how resistant your loved one is to the idea of giving up some control, or on whether you can assume this control without their noticing. Weezy27, you note that your mother is currently "suspicious" of you kids taking over this activity ... is there any specific reason for her to be untrusting (i.e., has any of the brood borrowed money and not returned it? Is anyone unemployed or in other financial distress? Is there any history of financial irresponsibility)? If so, then be relentless about cutting that person (or people) from being given any financial control when you talk with your Mom about setting up a POA. What stage of Alzheimer's is your mother in? Does she understand what is happening to her, and what the course of the disease is? If she is still capable of rational thought, now is the time to talk frankly with her about the need for setting up a POA while she is still of sound-enough mind to make important decisions and execute legal documents -- and about the fact that at some point, someone else WILL need to take over her finances (not least to manage bills and taxes). If there has been a formal diagnosis of a progressive dementia, this is not a matter of "if," but "when."
If you have not yet done so, consider talking to her about various options for how this second-person financial management could be set up in advance, and the pros and cons of each. For example, if she doesn't set up a plan in advance, when the time comes, your only choice may to file for a guardianship/conservatorship. (This may already be the case if she is past the point of being able to execute legal documents, but it doesn't sound from your question as if you think this is the case.) As I understand it, filing for guardianship/conservatorship is expensive, time-consuming, potentially embarrassing for the person for whom guardianship/conservatorship is being sought, and results in a fair amount of continuing, intrusive governmental oversight and invasion of family privacy (yes, all designed to ensure that the guardian/conservator is behaving properly, but still, another pain to deal with for an adult child who is legitimately just trying to help care for a parent in need). If your mother remains resistant to the idea of having one or more of her children assume this role, is there anyone else (a sibling? A family friend?) she might prefer? There are professionals who can be hired for this purpose (but again, monitoring this will add to the burden of the adult child/children trying to care for her).
Finally, assuming there has been a formal diagnosis, this may be a discussion your mother's doctor or neuropsychologist could have with her. My Dad's neuropsychologist was very straightforward with both of us at the appointment where my Dad's condition was diagnosed about the progression of the disease and about the need to ensure that decisions were made now about how to handle financial matters at time goes on. I had by that time already taken over a lot of my Dad's finances, but I mention this because my Dad seemed very open to what the doctor was telling him, and maybe your Mom would be less suspicious if the discussion were initiated by a trusted person outside the family.
I hope this helps a little ... everyone's situation is just different enough so that what works in one family may not work in another. Best of luck to you and your family ... I know this is hard!
However, the story doesn't end there. I had left her with a credit card so that she could shop with friends or on scheduled trips from her retirement facility. She was also able to withdraw cash as needed from her bank. A couple of months later her credit card bill had a charge from one of these charities! They had called her to ask for another donation and when she told them she didn't have a checkbook, they said, no problem, just give us your credit card number. I could not believe how ruthless these people were! I tried to call some of them to get her name off their list, and tried to get the credit card charge refunded, but had no success.
Mom is now in AL in the same town where I live due to her worsening dementia, and the only money she has access to are the nickels that she uses to play jackpot bingo. I feel that without intervention she would have given away most if not all, of her money. The moral of this story is that just having POA is not enough. If your relative has access to any funds, these vultures will try anything to get it. You have to take charge before they are reduced to poverty.
Some catalog companies did honor Catalog Choice requests. Others didn't. The end result was that it barely put a dent in the number of catalogs we received. We used to get so many catalogs that recycling them was a major chore. Now that no one is ordering, the numbers have gone down. The real trick to getting rid of the catalogs is to not order from any. As soon as someone orders from a catalog, they get put on the sucker list.
My parents were not deemed mentally incompetent, so there was little I could do until they were ready to turn over the reins to me. This didn't happen until after my father died. I don't have POA, but my mother was totally lost when it came to paying bills and taking care of finances. She added my name to her bank accounts, so I could handle her banking. I also opened a charge account for her with my name as an authorized user. I set her utility bills to be paid automatically where possible and from my computer otherwise. Occasionally she still goes ballistic when she sees my name on the bank accounts or realizes things are not being paid in the old-fashion way. I just reassure her, telling her she had asked me to handle things and that she had added my name to the account.
Weezy, your mother may soon realize she needs help with her finances. Until then, is there any way you can get to her mailbox before she does? I find that losing envelopes and catalogs on the way to the front door works wonderfully well. I would sneak out later and properly dispose of the litter left by the doorstep. If you work during the day, this isn't an option, of course. What I wish is that the catalog and fundraising companies would vaporize... or at least stop targeting vulnerable people, wanting more and more from them.