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I work for my Uncle who is 82. I am also his power of attorney. In the past year he has really started to slip mentally. Every month his business loses more money than he pays me. He does not want to deal with the problems or work to fix anything. I have tried over and over to make suggestions. He just wants to come to work every day and make his phone calls. His partners have recently got short with him on the phone because he is so forgetful. Customers roll their eyes at him when he is not looking. He needs to retire. He is bad at his job, but he won't listen to anyone. He just yells at everyone else and blames them. I am just waiting for the day he gets lost going home or is unable to tell what time or day it is before I begin taking over for him. Any suggestions for me? I feel bad that I am hoping he get's worse, but he is very stubborn and will not listen to reason. I hope this happens before he goes bankrupt.

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What the neurologist meant but didn't have the balls to say is that Uncle has mild cognitive impairment...I.e., shouldn't be making executive and monetary decisions any longer. You should resign your PA and get another job, as you suggested in a previous post.
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Bummer.
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No. He is free to do whatever he wants until he has to renew next April. If he passes next April he will have to renew every 2 years in this state.
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Is there a way for the doctor to get the state to require the driving test?
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Here is the exciting update. According to the Neurologist he is normal for an 83 year old. The Neurologist suggested he let others make executive decisions and he get tested for his driving. His response was "I'm not doing that. This is horse s*#t!".
So that is where I am. Watching him continue to self destruct and unable to do anything about it.
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I concur with gardenartist. Write a letter with your concerns and either give it in person to the neurologist, or email it if you can. I've accompanied my mother twice to her neuro appointments. The first time, I sat with her during the appointment, and listened to her lie over and over -- and I didn't have the guts to call her out out at that time. The second time, I waited in the waiting room, after delivering my letter to her doctor. The letter outlined all my concerns, and let him know that she wasn't honest during the previous appt.
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No one but him put the money in the 2 retirement accounts that were for his 2 nephews, so technically it is his money but in the will it was specified for them to get this money. They signed off on it because at this point I think they have stockholm syndrome and won't fight with him. I am the only one who will. If the Neurologist declares him competent then he is truly a selfish jerk and I will let not be his POA anymore. If he is doing this because he has dementia and he is not reasonable and desperate, I will take over making his financial decisions going forward even if it means taking him to court to gain guardianship against his will.
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Haven't read the entire long thread, just skimming through and finding some fellow DOS heads here.

So my answer is based only on cursory review of the previous posts and your most recent post.

Raid the retirement accounts? Is he serious? Are you referring to pension funds set aside specifically for that purpose? If you haven't consulted the company attorney, I would do so as I think you're on shaky ground here. How are the funds to be paid back given the declining state of the business?

I would write a letter to the neurologist, asking him to keep the shared information confidential but suggesting areas for him to pursue to explore the issues at hand. Exams can be cursory and not focus on areas that do reveal dementia and/or deficits in cognitive thinking, so you want to ensure that an accurate diagnosis is possible.

Go with him to the appointment if you can, and if in your opinion it will help in getting an accurate diagnosis. If your uncle is hostile to that idea, it may result in friction at the appointment which hampers the neurologist's ability to see the true picture. So you may end up having to let your uncle go alone, but then you won't have the benefit of the diagnosis. Tough situation to call.

I did read something to the effect that your uncle likes to call and price/appraise. Perhaps he could consider transitioning to being an independent consultant, doing pricing for other businesses in his field rather than having the responsibility of his own business. Or perhaps it's too late for this or it's unrealistic if he still needs to maintain the illusion that he can run the business himself.
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I have an update since May on the this situation. The bank FINALLY turned him down on a more money. Then he decided he was going to raid the retirement accounts. I know it was expensive to do but I bargained some retirement $ because he needed our signatures on the loan, for an appt. for him with a neurologist. I had already talked to his primary care physician and we were going to try to convince him to go on without force, but this came up and I told him I was not going to sign away money from these accounts without getting something from him. Now I have to make sure he goes. If the neurologist declares him competent I have to find a new job and relinquish my power of attorney in order to protect myself. I have been keeping a log as some of you suggested and need some advice. Do I write a letter to the Neurologist documenting my concerns and go to the appt with him or do I let the Neurologist decide on his own. My Uncle is almost cocky about this, thinking he will pass with flying colors and I will just be quiet after he is declared competent.
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Hey... Actually your dad might get a kick out of installing Linux on something and writing a little HTML by hand. It's not real programming but it could satisfy the urge. :-). My dad wrote a little in Fortran, I guess it's in my blood.
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I have an old Y2K card I didn't need to use if your dad needs one for it! Yeah, he's a nerd and a geek after my own heart.

OMG it is SO cool to find someone else who actually understands the allure of the old command line...and the way they could even do some cool graphical things with DOS too. Where else can a working mom enter a simple verbal command and have it followed to the letter, EVERY TIME??
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That was funny ystefans, "DOS heads".... I'll need to remember that every time my Dad starts to complain that he can't get onto the Internet. My Dad also wrote computer code and had his own programs. He really misses doing that. He still has his old DOS mode computer hooked up in the basement. Mom wants him to throw it out but he won't... guess it's like an old friend to him.

Speaking of computers, one of Dad's old friends when he was at college was John Atanasoff, one of the inventors of the binary math computer. Dad had his engineering lab next door to Atanasoff's physict's lab... to hear Dad talk it sounded like the group from the TV show "Big Bang Theory" :)
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Hey - us old DOS heads have every reason to want to live in the past. You'd type a word or two on a command line and hit enter, and by God if you did it right, the computer would do it right! I miss that. :-) And I miss my batch files too...now the systems pretty much make you do one case at a time, one step at a time, click and wait, click and wait.

Some banking sites will still work on a 56k dialup, but not too much else anymore. You can have him try mobile versions of sites too. My son just taught me you can go to Google and type text:before the site and get a text version of what's on there.
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momofjap's uncle sounds so very much like my boss, who is 79 years old and has been in business close to 50 years. My boss yells at people, he thinks he can get things done quicker that way, or he uses politics as a scapegoat when business is slow [that's when I roll my eyes].

My boss forgets things too but I figure it has to do with too much multi-tasking. He likes to juggle a dozen things at once, which drives me crazy as I can only focus on one thing at a time. He's on the landline, while being on his cellphone, while checking his email and while talking to someone who walks into the office. YIKES.

The issue with the computer sounds a lot like my Dad who use to teach computers back in the 1990's after he had retired... but technology has gotten away from Dad and he still thinks he's in a DOS world. Dad is always complaining how slow it is for him to get onto the Internet, and I always suggest he get high speed internet because the dial-up is no longer working for his computer. At least once a week for the past two years I tell him that. Oh well.
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I'll bet he would not DREAM of taking a vacation. He kind of knows he's losing it and would have a sense if he steps away it would be exposed. If he would, that's a great idea - give everyone else a chance to get a handle on thing.

With the driving, if the DMV only does exams on a strict schedule, maybe you would have an option to get a specialized OT driving evaluator under any pretext possible...hey Unc - we can get a big break on our auto insurance of you would take this behind-the-wheel test they have at [insert name of local rehab hosital here]. Their assesment would likely carry a lot of weight with the DMV and the doctor too.

If it takes forever to do simple math, take advantage if you can...then he can't do as many items in the course of a work day, so let him take as long as possible!
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Stressed 52 gave you a great answer! I 'd only add that if he wants to use the computer and can't do it, it is simple enough nowadays that he is almost certainly unable cognitively rather than unwilling. The bankruptcy and the accident are both inevitable if he stays in the driver's seat figuratively and literally. I understand the guilt about taking away all he has left, but YOU are not taking anything away from him, the dementia is. YOU are protecting him from consequences that he can no longer appreciate or foresee due to his condition.

You can communicate TO his doctor regardless of permission, doctor is free to do whatever he or she wants with the information. He is not likely going to get better, but worse - and any chance he has of getting better in any way is reduced to zero if the doctor has the wool pulled over their eyes and is lied to every visit, so there is no chance of diagnosis or anything going on that might be treatable. With a healthcare POA, if they have it on file, they should be permitted to talk to you privately after the visit if he's not permitting you to go in with him.

One of the few options that might work, short of being able to get incapacity letters and activate the POA if that's needed and possible, versus getting a guardianship, would be to have a meeting with the rest of the folks at work, behind his back so to speak. If he can in fact price and appraise accurately, he should be put in charge of that and that alone, and someone else must take over being the buyer, or some other method of stroking his ego and letting him feel he is still valuable to the company. You don't need to try to deal with the whole thing yourself, and anyone else who has any interest in the business not being run into the ground should be willing to help. They may need some education about dementia (beware if they say they do not believe you because he is "sharp as a tack"). But between you and the other partners, if they are on board, surely a strategy can be concocted. A careful read through of your POA with an attorney in advance - maybe even at a free or low cost initial consultation - be invaluable in helping you strategize. I hope something works and he does not end up with his business that he loves so much in ruins rather than passed on to partners who can carry on with it, or worse, at-fault for a fatal car wreck and someone innocent paying the ultimate price.
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Actually looking over the stages he has recently moved into stage 4. He is having problems remembering recent events, has had mood changes and is really having problems with math lately. I tend to loose it with the math thing, since I am an accountant and he is really having trouble with it. It takes him sometimes 10 minutes to do simple math. Also reading, he seems to not be able to read things we put in front of him.

I had a nightmare again that he was driving his car and I was the passenger. He was driving crazy and out of control and scaring me. I know it was probably a dream/metaphor for how I feel working for someone who cannot steer the company anymore.
I will not let him drive his actual car when I am in it with him, I am too frightened to let him drive. Still cannot do anything about it. He does not take another driving test until 2015.
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Gigi11, the problem with the "medical experts" is that the threshold for what is considered time for the POA to take control is so low. The elderly person has to be at the point that they get lost going home, don't know what day it is, or don't know how to read a clock. As long as you can get dressed and feed yourself and know where you are, you are considered okay and the POA cannot take over.
Alzheimers/Dementia is a progressive disease. It takes YEARS to get from stage 1 to stage 5 where the dementia is obvious. A lot of damage to a corporation and a families finances can be done in this time. I figure he is about stage 3 now but the Doctor will not say he has dementia yet, so I wait and watch the train wreck happen slowly every day. A lawyer I consulted told me to make popcorn and enjoy the horror film, because until the Doctor is willing to certify that he has dementia there is nothing you can do.
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Big corporations have boards of directors who make tough decisions such as when to retire an executive. Small businesses need something like that. A contract allowing for medical experts to decide? An alternative to family having to stage a mutiny. Difficult situation.
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I hear you man. Going through something similar. My dad is my boss, and he's slipping. I don't have POA, and our business is probably going to close in a month or two, due to 5 or 6 years of running negligence. I feel bad for the clients who have suffered though these hard times more than anyone. At least you still think you can salvage things. Good luck.
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How's about taking a vacation with him to his home land, a few weeks in Tuscany or some place like that where new plans for the future can be made. A vacation for you and him, a new perspective for him. Just a thought.
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Momo - many of us have been through different forms of what you're going through. Unfortunately, you are kind of the hub who knows and sees what's wrong and yet you feel paralyzed to act. Also unfortunately, you may be the only one who CAN the fact some kind of change. As someone asked, do you have something to lose, like an inheritance, if you walk away? Even if that's the case, you have to weigh that against how are you will feel if you do nothing and he kills himself driving, or worse, kills someone else.

if it were me, I'm big on documentation. I would write the same letter to any of his doctors, with all of their names listed, referring to your health POA and describing in detail his CHANGE in behavior and has a rational thinking, pointing out your relationship, how long you've known him, how closely you work together, how you know this is just wrong and your hands are tied, based on what the corporate lawyers have told you, because you're general financial power of attorney cannot take a fact unless he's declared incompetent.

Tell then you are afraid that tragic circumstances are in the immediate future if they, the doctors, don't put their heads together and do something to help him. Tell them you love your uncle but you're being put in an untenable position and if you, his doctors, don't step forward and investigate and possibly require a mental evaluation, you will be forced to leave your uncles employ and let everything that you have been holding together for xxx months fall apart.

Seriously, include the names addresses and phone numbers of all the doctors on the heading of the letter so they all know they all got it. If I were a doctor and saw that several doctors receive the same letter such as that, I be doing with the patient in fear of having to deal with my insurance company.

You are basically in a situation where you have to act or walk away. Personally, I would be able to walk away with a clear conscience if I did everything in my power to act first. That's my suggestion, I hope it then if it's you.
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Momo: You are what my Dad use to say...."stuck between a rock and a hard spot!" I do not envy you with this one!

At 82 and doing some of the things you say he has done, it sounds to me like he has dementia at the very least. Dementia is related to Alzheimer's. What your Uncle needs, if he has not already had it, is a trip to a Neurologist to have him evaluated. They do a physical and blood panel and an MRI of the brain and then cognitive testing to see what may be happening. This also gives them a baseline to judge his decline as years go on. It also gives you the ammunition you need to take over and use the POA.

I was given POA by my mother of her Health and Financial affairs. One of the very difficult issues of being given this, is reaching the point where you actually have to step up and actually TAKE OVER. They do not always go gently! They will fight you every step of the way, insisting that they are "fine" when every move they make, screams that they have no idea what they are doing. It is not pleasant to have to basically force someone to relinquish their lives and in your case business to someone else, especially when someone like you Uncle likes to play the big shot or tough guy.

Have you ever seen an attorney for yourself? I thought that my Mom's attorney would take me by the hand and lead me through this process, telling me exactly what I needed to do to act as her Power of Attorney, but that was not the case. I was told by Mom's attorney that I needed to procure my own attorney to advise me in what I was suppose to do and what I could be held liable for. Although I took Mom's POA it seems that I was almost pitted against her in a way, as I needed an attorney to basically protect and lead me. Who knew, I didn't!

The thing is YOU NEED GUIDANCE and you NEED IT NOW! You need to immediately find YOUR OWN ATTORNEY, who can go over your POA and advise YOU in what you should do. If you have absolutely nothing to gain by keeping his POA then you may want to inform him and his partners that you are relinquishing the POA due to his non compliance. If you do stand to gain something in the end, that makes it worth your while to hang on, THEN YOU HAVE TO PUT ON YOUR BIG BOY BOXERS AND TELL YOUR UNCLE IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS THAT HE IS NO LONGER CAPABLE OF MAKING WISE DECISIONS FOR THE FIRM AND THEREFORE YOU ARE USING YOUR POA AND STEPPING IN AND TAKING OVER TO TRY AND SAVE THE COMPANY FROM FINANCIAL RUIN. You need to speak to each and every partner and tell them what is happening and what your choice is, taking over or stepping down. If you decide to take over, you need to ask each one of them for their support and to back you up when you tell Uncle you are taking over. Each of them needs to be willing to tell him that yes he is slipping and they are backing you even if they have no financial ties to him. If they decline to back you, then I would really wonder if it was worth my while to mess with them or the company. I realize you must be drawing a paycheck from the company, but depending on your POA and position you hold, are you sure you cannot be held liable for any of this debt? I would hate to think you could have been set up as the "fall guy."

The young girl friend may not be willing to be of any help because she is benefiting from his condition, you may however want to have a simple talk with her to ask is she has noticed his memory lapses and gently ask if she has noticed any problems with him at home or ask if he has been to see a doctor lately etc. You may have to be very careful here when asking these questions as you do not want to alert her or him of your desire to take over via the POA.

Can you find another job rather easy if you decide to give up POA? I think it would be best if you left the company and got on with your life if this were to be your decision.

Check out your POA VERY VERY WELL, go see an attorney and find out what you should have been doing and what you should do now. You will need to get a diagnosis of a mental problem of dementia or alzheimer's or something else that incapacitates him. If there is nothing, then there isn't much you can do, other than to save yourself!

By the way, your Uncle not being able to use a computer may not mean he has a mental problem, it may just mean he doesn't want to be bothered and why should he when he has you around to help him.

Please go see an attorney and see what they advise you to do, and then let us all know how it goes.

Best Wishes and God Bless!
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Even though he passed his test last year, you can notify DMV his medical condition has changed. None of us on this site can solve your problem with your uncle. You will have to find a way out since we have given you plenty of options.
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If I were you, I would get a new job and leave him to go bankrupt. You are telling us that despite being his financial and health POA, you are hitting a wall with his doctors, lawyers and the DMV. Extricate yourself from this situation by renouncing (or whatever it is you do) your powers of attorney and let your uncle and his attorney know why. This situation sounds like it will only get worse and when it does, if you think you're stressed now, just wait.
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Well, what is the pay off for you momo? There must be something in it for you if you are willing to put up with all of this. Are you the beneficiary of his estate?
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Honestly I have two teenagers that are a pleasure compared to this old man. He is like senior citizen gone wild half the time. Last year he had plastic surgery on his eyes to make him look younger. His girlfriend could be his grand daughter. He thinks he's Hugh Hefner in his younger days. There is no controlling him. He has always lived a wild bachelor's life and will not change.
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According to the DMV he passed his driving test last year and he is not up for it again until 2015. He passed the test taking more medication than he is taking now, but he drives like Mr. Magoo. No one will drive with him, we are scared out of our wits, but according to the DMV he is okay. The DMV will not take his car away, sorry.
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You do not understand. First he owns his portion of the business 100%. No one else has any financial authority in HIS corporation. He is not completely unable to do anything, he just does it badly and makes bad decisions. According to his lawyer I cannot take over until he is declared incompetent. It's not like he is drooling in a chair. In HIS mind he is still is totally in control and knows everything. If you didn't know him you would encourage him to keep busy and working and appreciate his work ethic. But if you had to talk to him and deal with him of try to help him make it through the day you would realize the only thing he is able to do is call people and appraise and price. He has said he will come to work every day until the day he dies. He does not care if he loses everything in order to come to work every day because THAT IS ALL HE HAS, AND HE IS STUBBORN ON TOP OF IT. After he said "What" 3 times in 3 minutes I told him he should get a hearing aid, which I have told him before and he snapped at me not to tell him what to do. In his mind hearing aids are for old people and HE IS NOT OLD.
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Well, Fentanyl is a narcotic as well. If you don't take the car away, he will have an accident and he might not come home at all. Notify MVD he is taking two narcotics and his judgment is affected. Let them be the bad guys. I would talk with both his doctors since you have the authority to do so, get him tested and then act accordingly. You are about to have an explosion.
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