I’m a bit surprised that so many people think an equal division is best, because it isn’t necessarily ‘normal’ - as soon as the estate involves a business-size asset, for example. Here are some options to consider, besides the carer agreement. The first is for your mother’s will to leave you a specific $ bequest ‘in recognition of the care you have provided’, and then to divide the remainder equally. The second option is for the other beneficiaries to make a division by agreement that is different from the equal shares in the will, when the time comes. For example, my older sister and I agreed not to deduct the formal loans to our younger sister from her share. That would allow your mother to ‘lend’ you money now, instead of making a formal carer agreement. The third option is for your mother to make gifts now and in the future, in proportions she chooses, and then make the will in equal shares. For example, my MIL did just that with 3 of her 4 children, leaving her with a much smaller estate, and then the will was equal shares for what was left. None of these options are likely to be challenged (that was the reason for option 3, on her independent legal advice). However option 2 needs agreement from the beneficiaries (OK with sister, but what about the other siblings?), options 2 and 3 involve Medicaid issues, options 1 and 2 assume that no new will is going to be made in future, and all the options assume that your mother is still legally competent to make her will. Best wishes, Margaret.
Seems a caregiver agreement would be reasonable. Telling someone they will be compensated in a will? What if there is no money left? I like "pay as you go" whenever possible. Also, how about getting in your quarters so that you have social security? How would an unpaid caregiver do that, unless they were able to hold down an outside job as well?
If your mom has a substantial estate, you should hire caregivers so you are not giving up your life for an inheritance.
24/7/365 caregiving is to much for one person. Children are not obligated to be that care. You are only obligated to use moms money to make sure she is well cared for, if that means there is no money left for you or siblings at her death, then at least you know you did right by your mom and she got the best care possible.
While I have not read all the comments and I may be in the minority here I will go ahead and give what might be a minority opinion. Your parents worked their entire lives and saved money for "the future", for "a rainy day", when "there is something that we really need" and on and on..... Well NOW is the future...and baby it is pouring!....and if they NEED substantial care it is what they REALLY NEED...... My parents died when I was pretty young. (Mom died when I was 10 and my Dad died 4 years later) I did NOTHING to get the money that was left to me. I would have preferred for them to live to a ripe old age than to get money I did not earn. Inheritance is NOT a birthright. It is a bonus. If the money can be used NOW to make their lives better, to make them more comfortable then by all means spend it on them, for them. Would you rather them save and squirrel away their money just to pass some on or would you rather them have good care in a place (at home or a facility) where they can be safe and cared for. By safe I mean that might necessitate renovating a house to put in accessible bathrooms, ramps, turning a dining room into a bedroom so they do not have to go upstairs. (and yes this might mean having to put in another full bathroom) With renovations you might spend over $100,000 knowing you will never recoup that money when the house goes on the market. It is their money let them do with it what they want. When you have to do your Will you can dispense your money the way you want. Don't get me started on people that want to "hide" money so a parent will qualify for Medicaid...I would rather pay for more quality care than hide money so I can be next in line for a medicaid bed at some facility Stepping down off my soap box now...
A fair option might be to pay siblings for the care they provide out of the parents account. To make it fair the same hourly rate could be applied to each. If there are 3 siblings one provides no care, one child provides 8 hours of care every Monday and someone else provides care the rest of the time at 168 hours per week one person would get paid for 8 hours another for 160 hours. A contract would be drawn up and an hourly rate established. This would probably be the most fair way to "pay or compensate" the siblings that provide care. If one that provides no direct care does paperwork, paying bills, organizing other aspects then that person should get compensated the same way as the others doing direct care.
Grandma wrote: [ If the money can be used NOW to make their lives better, to make them more comfortable then by all means spend it on them, for ]them.
I agree, unfortunately, I have had many clients in which the thief is the one hiding behind the caregiver role.
They wear their role like a halo, while they isolate the parent so that they can make all the decisions.
Often the parent has partial dementia and they believe all the controlling child tells them while they are isolated.
I had one client whose daughter failed to apprise the siblings of the mother's failing health. She even told the very ill mother that she had contacted the siblings but that they refused to visit. It was a lie.
She then encouraged her to change the will, according to the ill person, who apparrently was not so lost in dementia that she did not figure out what was going on.
First, for those who say inheritance is not a birthright...you are correct. But just barely by the last 70 years or so. It used to be the first born male child in almost every culture has his "birthright." That was to inherit all the father had and then it was up to the oldest male to decide who got what. Hence, the story of Jacob and Esau. These days it is up to the person leaving the estate how much to leave whom. Equal distribution is typically impractical and not logical for a myriad of reasons. Also, certain children create trouble, drama, and steal from their parents and the only way many parents can police them is to take them out of the Will. Also, if the parent wants to leave more money to one child who has given more time or for whatever reason, that IS UP TO THE PARENT. It is their money. They can do what they want with it, and should secure their own health first before anything.
Ideally, the elderly will use financial instruments such as an IRA, or life insurance which names beneficiaries and contigents and even per stirpes (a legal term if you do not know you probably should look up) to go around an estate and probate. At that point it is said and done anyhow. And with most instruments the gift can be disclaimed. But it is never always a good idea to go 50-50 unless you have limited assets that are easily divided. IMO. And watch if you are POA asking this question...it could be undue influence in certain instances.
How do you determine how much care a sibling has provided? I live 2 hours from Mom. One brother lives 11 hours away and one is an hour away. My younger sister (who is a geriatric nurse) was designated DPOA and executor. She is 20 minutes from Mom. My youngest sister is 15 minutes from Mom. We all socialize with Mom, visiting her, phoning her, and including her in family events as we can. She has early Altz.
My DPOA sister does all of the day to day work BUT she doesn't delegate, she did not finalize the caregiver agreement I gave her and discussed with her, AND she seems to over protect Mom by restricting her activities far before I would. I really prefer that she be compensated as she is providing help, but Mom is stingy and won't pay anyone without a fight. Her concept of the cost of help as well as her memories are reverting to past years. Thus my sister may have not been able to get agreement with her for compensation. Still, she gave it away for free. Not working out the care agreement makes it difficult for this of us living far away to take time off and help. We need some compensation too, at least for travel. She didn't think she needed it so she didn't follow through. Now she complains.
I am helping, but differently than day to day responses. I am making her more comfortable with leaving her home, by sharing my efforts and adventures getting a senior apartment of my own. It is in a warm state and I love it 4 months of the year. She wants assurance that she has options. I want her to enjoy every remaining year. She also wants independence as long as possible.
I talk on the phone, visit, work on ancestry photos, and take her on short outings to the store, cemetery, senior apartments of interest. I don't make a big deal of it and I'm sure my efforts are not counted. I am just enjoying time with her. Does that mean I should be written out of the will? I would like to be referenced equally with my brothers and sisters. If compensation for caregiving will be done through the will, proper documentation should be provided or one or more of the Sibs may contest the will. Just my 2 cents.
No, it *doesn't* depend on the size of the estate. It doesn't matter whether the estate in question comprises vast tracts of land and listed companies, or a Cabbage Patch doll collection. The only thing that varies with the size of the estate is the willingness of lawyers and courts to get involved.
This is a question of how a person goes about drawing up or amending her will, and what those assisting her should contribute to her decision-making. Which is, as little as possible and ideally nothing at all. If it's really impossible for her to make her own mind up, in consultation with her disinterested lawyer if it is a sizeable estate, then she probably shouldn't be making changes anyway.
is it reasonable for a parent of their own free will to distribute according to his/her wishes ? Yes, and hopefully not with malice so that siblings don't squabble about it
It's been interesting to ponder all the different opinions on this matter.
When beginning the caregiving journey, it could be a difficult subject to bring up compensation and inheritance. And most caregivers never realize in those early days just how bad the caregiving may eventually be.
Of course, a parent can do what they want with their money/estate. But so can the caregiver or potential caregiver child.
This wasn't clear -- too early, not enough coffee!
At the beginning of the caregiving journey, caregivers must bring up the compensation or inheritance issues. It gets harder and harder as time goes on.
A parent can do what they want with their money/estate. And a caregiver or potential caregiver child can do what THEY want with their life, and that may mean NOT being the caregiver for the parent if not compensated.
The will is not where this care agreement should be, it is a separate instrument and should be established now and communicated to anyone named in the will. Avoid future issues, because with the cost of care now there may not be much asset to distribute.
I am sure I will hear a lot of opinions to the contrary. I may be different because I have no living family now. Here is what I think. If you have "friends" or people who have always been there for you through thick and thin and your family has NOT been there, and if you have something you want to will - money or otherwise - I would and did always choose to give to those who were there for me all through whatever was happening and I was close to. Perhaps I might leave something to my family - depends on the relationship but not because they are "family". And I would always choose to give something to those who don't have much or are truly struggling to make ends meet. It seems obscene to me that some people only want to give to family members who are extremely well off and not in want rather than giving to people that are in need and who are very close. I feel inheritances are earned. They are not automatic. And, yes, it belongs to the person leaving the inheritance and they can choose to give it all or part to charities or to animal rescues. It is up to them entirely. In my case, it is going to my charities (but I have made provision for a couple of friends who are there for me and who are really struggling).
I think the suggestions to pay the caregiving child in a way that avoids the will altogether- ie. setting up a Payable on Death account, a caregiving contract or making the caregiver child beneficiary of an insurance policy or retirement account- sound like the best ideas. Don't change the will. Bypass it.
Since the money belongs to the parents, it is theirs to do with as they wish. Some people talk about "their inheritance" as if it is something they are entitled to receive. Caregiving can involve a significant financial sacrifice. You may have to go to part time work or use all of your vacation time, or not get that promotion because you take too much time off etc. It would be nice if the person doing the work could be paid. That would be the ideal situation. It seems like most elderly persons do not agree to pay the caregiver if they are family. If there is a significant difference in the amount of caregiving the siblings do, then it seems reasonable to have that reflected in the will. It would be a good idea for the person making the will to put in writing why they decided what they did. For myself, if someone is there for me, I intend to express my appreciation for that in my will. It doesn't matter to me how they are related to me or what is expected. If you can't be bothered with me when I'm alive, why do you think you are entitled to my money when I am dead?
A good parent will always treat all children equally.
In some countries parents are required to do this. There are also laws in some countries in which the parent still has a responsibility to treat an adult child fairly, even if they are not available for caregiving.
If one child volunteers to caregive rather than spending the money on a facility, that is their choice. Caregiving should be done out of love, not out of a desire to inherit everything.
Also, many caregivers take over and neglect to involve their siblings in decisions about whether or not to put the parent in a facility to ensure proper care. There are also numerous incidents among my clients in which the seemingly selfless caregiver has exerted undue influence over the parent.
Many times, the parent is not happy about this but feels helpless to change things or may no longer be mentally competent enough to know how to address the issue of undue influence.
Again, caregiving should be a choice made out of love, not greed.
Also, if a will or a bank account is change while a parent is ill, the other siblings have legal recourse to claim undue influence
The parent can set up a joint account with the primary caregiver, that avoids going through a will. But if you are trying to work through the money (I'm not talking millions, I'm talking a bit more then Medicaid allows) then NO ONE will get any money so the caregiver isn't getting more or less then the non-caregiver. One hopes the parent sees what is going on & understands that the caregiver's time is worth something and offers other ways to help. Gifting money annually might not be subjected to Medicaid look back. I spend just about all my non-working time doing for my Mother (bills, aides, insurance, shopping, cooking, explaining & re-explaining things, etc) and NO I don't do it for a possible inheritance, I do it out of love...but every once in a while it's nice that she pays for a meal or paid for the car I needed to take her to Doctor's, etc.
Financial planner can set up Irrevocable Trusts and that also doesn't go through the will. And if I get any grief from my brother, if my Mom predeceases me, that I can handle. I don't want him to withhold the 1x/few months he visits her.
I am a firm believer that if one member of the family goes far above and beyond what others in the family do, then give them more than the others. Let them bicker and scream - they do not deserve anything more. If there is some way for your mother to explain this before the end, then do so. If not, when the will is written up, have language to this effect included as to why it is so. It is only right and fair. And one more thing, I always believed that more should be given to one member if they are really struggling and the other have a great deal already. Be prepared for a fight but it morally right to help those in need more.
That's a perfectly fair point of view, and when you are making your own will you will be perfectly entitled to put it into operation.
But *this* question is about whether you should attempt to persuade somebody else to draw up their will in line with your point of view. It's a different issue.
I would be the caregiver for nothing. But when another family member has asked the family member to put his name on all of the accounts and the FM who is a people-pleaser won't say no, (but has voiced intent for others to get some of what she leaves, if there is anything) then I resent the one who is subtley gaining access to whatever $$ there is but still expects us to do our part in caregiving.
24/7/365 caregiving is to much for one person. Children are not obligated to be that care. You are only obligated to use moms money to make sure she is well cared for, if that means there is no money left for you or siblings at her death, then at least you know you did right by your mom and she got the best care possible.
Your parents worked their entire lives and saved money for "the future", for "a rainy day", when "there is something that we really need" and on and on.....
Well NOW is the future...and baby it is pouring!....and if they NEED substantial care it is what they REALLY NEED......
My parents died when I was pretty young. (Mom died when I was 10 and my Dad died 4 years later) I did NOTHING to get the money that was left to me. I would have preferred for them to live to a ripe old age than to get money I did not earn.
Inheritance is NOT a birthright. It is a bonus. If the money can be used NOW to make their lives better, to make them more comfortable then by all means spend it on them, for them. Would you rather them save and squirrel away their money just to pass some on or would you rather them have good care in a place (at home or a facility) where they can be safe and cared for. By safe I mean that might necessitate renovating a house to put in accessible bathrooms, ramps, turning a dining room into a bedroom so they do not have to go upstairs. (and yes this might mean having to put in another full bathroom) With renovations you might spend over $100,000 knowing you will never recoup that money when the house goes on the market.
It is their money let them do with it what they want. When you have to do your Will you can dispense your money the way you want.
Don't get me started on people that want to "hide" money so a parent will qualify for Medicaid...I would rather pay for more quality care than hide money so I can be next in line for a medicaid bed at some facility
Stepping down off my soap box now...
A fair option might be to pay siblings for the care they provide out of the parents account. To make it fair the same hourly rate could be applied to each. If there are 3 siblings one provides no care, one child provides 8 hours of care every Monday and someone else provides care the rest of the time at 168 hours per week one person would get paid for 8 hours another for 160 hours. A contract would be drawn up and an hourly rate established. This would probably be the most fair way to "pay or compensate" the siblings that provide care. If one that provides no direct care does paperwork, paying bills, organizing other aspects then that person should get compensated the same way as the others doing direct care.
I agree, unfortunately, I have had many clients in which the thief is the one hiding behind the caregiver role.
They wear their role like a halo, while they isolate the parent so that they can make all the decisions.
Often the parent has partial dementia and they believe all the controlling child tells them while they are isolated.
I had one client whose daughter failed to apprise the siblings of the mother's failing health. She even told the very ill mother that she had contacted the siblings but that they refused to visit. It was a lie.
She then encouraged her to change the will, according to the ill person, who apparrently was not so lost in dementia that she did not figure out what was going on.
Ideally, the elderly will use financial instruments such as an IRA, or life insurance which names beneficiaries and contigents and even per stirpes (a legal term if you do not know you probably should look up) to go around an estate and probate. At that point it is said and done anyhow. And with most instruments the gift can be disclaimed. But it is never always a good idea to go 50-50 unless you have limited assets that are easily divided. IMO. And watch if you are POA asking this question...it could be undue influence in certain instances.
My DPOA sister does all of the day to day work BUT she doesn't delegate, she did not finalize the caregiver agreement I gave her and discussed with her, AND she seems to over protect Mom by restricting her activities far before I would. I really prefer that she be compensated as she is providing help, but Mom is stingy and won't pay anyone without a fight. Her concept of the cost of help as well as her memories are reverting to past years. Thus my sister may have not been able to get agreement with her for compensation. Still, she gave it away for free. Not working out the care agreement makes it difficult for this of us living far away to take time off and help. We need some compensation too, at least for travel. She didn't think she needed it so she didn't follow through. Now she complains.
I am helping, but differently than day to day responses. I am making her more comfortable with leaving her home, by sharing my efforts and adventures getting a senior apartment of my own. It is in a warm state and I love it 4 months of the year. She wants assurance that she has options. I want her to enjoy every remaining year. She also wants independence as long as possible.
I talk on the phone, visit, work on ancestry photos, and take her on short outings to the store, cemetery, senior apartments of interest. I don't make a big deal of it and I'm sure my efforts are not counted. I am just enjoying time with her. Does that mean I should be written out of the will? I would like to be referenced equally with my brothers and sisters. If compensation for caregiving will be done through the will, proper documentation should be provided or one or more of the Sibs may contest the will. Just my 2 cents.
Many so called, self-proclaimed, selfless caregivers have isolated the parent and are very controlling
Many refuse to keep the siblings informed and then complain when they do not visit.
Many refuse to work out a care agreement because they want to be in control, but then they still want the right to complain.
It's basically rooted in greed, not caring. They do, however, hide behind the caregiver role.
Many of my clients would prefer to use the parents money for a good facility, but the controlling caregiver sibling refuses out of greed not love.
This is a question of how a person goes about drawing up or amending her will, and what those assisting her should contribute to her decision-making. Which is, as little as possible and ideally nothing at all. If it's really impossible for her to make her own mind up, in consultation with her disinterested lawyer if it is a sizeable estate, then she probably shouldn't be making changes anyway.
is it reasonable for a parent of their own free will to distribute according to his/her wishes ? Yes, and hopefully not with malice so that siblings don't squabble about it
When beginning the caregiving journey, it could be a difficult subject to bring up compensation and inheritance. And most caregivers never realize in those early days just how bad the caregiving may eventually be.
Of course, a parent can do what they want with their money/estate. But so can the caregiver or potential caregiver child.
At the beginning of the caregiving journey, caregivers must bring up the compensation or inheritance issues. It gets harder and harder as time goes on.
A parent can do what they want with their money/estate. And a caregiver or potential caregiver child can do what THEY want with their life, and that may mean NOT being the caregiver for the parent if not compensated.
Did you only have children so that they could be your caregivers as you age?
How selfish.
Why not plan for your own caregiving, as I have done.
All my children will be treated equally, even those that live and work far away or in another country and can not visit often.
A good parent will always treat all children equally.
In some countries parents are required to do this. There are also laws in some countries in which the parent still has a responsibility to treat an adult child fairly, even if they are not available for caregiving.
If one child volunteers to caregive rather than spending the money on a facility, that is their choice. Caregiving should be done out of love, not out of a desire to inherit everything.
Also, many caregivers take over and neglect to involve their siblings in decisions about whether or not to put the parent in a facility to ensure proper care. There are also numerous incidents among my clients in which the seemingly selfless caregiver has exerted undue influence over the parent.
Many times, the parent is not happy about this but feels helpless to change things or may no longer be mentally competent enough to know how to address the issue of undue influence.
Again, caregiving should be a choice made out of love, not greed.
Also, if a will or a bank account is change while a parent is ill, the other siblings have legal recourse to claim undue influence
Financial planner can set up Irrevocable Trusts and that also doesn't go through the will. And if I get any grief from my brother, if my Mom predeceases me, that I can handle. I don't want him to withhold the 1x/few months he visits her.
But *this* question is about whether you should attempt to persuade somebody else to draw up their will in line with your point of view. It's a different issue.