As POA, do I have the authority to take out my mom's money in her nursing home trust account and put it in a savings account?

Not power of attorney. That dies with person. Control of trust is in the hands of trustee.

What if parent dies, is that POA still good over the trust?

Christine: I am sorry. However, I have been by many financial professionals to not use your own money for your parents' care. That's all. I wish you well.

And the original poster is right. No one needs to come on here and feel attacked. People are responding in a way they would never speak to a stranger face to face. 

Llamalover, I appreciate the point you're trying to make but I felt scolded by your response, particularly with the exclamation point. I'm sure that means I took it the wrong way, and I *did ask for comments.

I will second what the OP said. She's obviously suffering and not looking to steal her mom's 50 bucks a month.

In my case, (since it came up) my mom can't afford the cost of an aide. I can and I want her to have one, so I pay. Yes, my life would be easier if I kept that money, but I think of it like the parent who pays for their kid to go to camp or have music lessons. It makes my mom happy, and her being happy makes me happy. I'm also helping a nursing student get through school and have a valuable experience, so I'll eat the cost for now. It won't be forever...

Llamalover, that's my choice and it's not a problem. Pamstegma, I did the search you recommended, learned a little about elder financial abuse, but what I'm really interested in are the "POA laws" you reference. I've never of such a thing and would like to read the statute or statutes. Thanks!

I am sole caretaker for my mom and she lives in my home. She has her own checking and savings account. Her SS check is direct deposited to har savings. Her supplimental health insurance is automatically taken from her checking account monthly and her prescription drug insurance is automatically taken from her SS check. She lives with me so she has no bills other than the phone/cable TV/internet which is in her name. Since I pay for all other bils she buys the groceries and pays for my meal if we go out to eat. I move money from her savings to checking as needed. When she came to live with me we went to an Elder Care Attorney and set up a trust account with the money she received from the sale of her home (plus the interest it had earned since then) and closed out a small CD she had and put that in the trust. We were told that after 5 years if she had to go into a nursing home Medicaid would not count the trust as her asset, however, her checking and savings would count as her asset even though my name is on those accounts too. This is fine with me, it's her money and should be used to pay for her care. My only reason for the trust account is to pay for the extras that she would not get if in a nursing home being paid by Medicaid.

Christine73: You should never use your own money for your mother's care!

I am a Power of Attorney, have been to three people since l970. I strongly advise you first and foremost if you are new at this job, find a highly recommended experienced elder care attorney who can advise you properly on the laws in your state with regard to POA powers and financial matters. And do this especially if Medicaid is going to be used. There is a look back period for Medicaid and I think it may now be five years. Be very, very careful of what you do and do this only on highly experienced professional advice or you may be held liable or have bigger problems to face. And most important, from day one, log every expense, every incident, keep extremely detailed records of what you do and spend. It is better to take the time and protect yourself if push comes to shove than suddenly find yourself in a situation where you have no records - God help you then. I know. I kept immaculate records from day one and as a result never, ever had a problem. And I learned how to handle every situation that came up. I am also a Government Payee which is the same as a POA but the Government calls it a Government Payee. Don't be frightened - it is not difficult once you start doing it and it will bring you peace of mind for the future.

Are you POA over her finances or health care decisions? If financial then yes you can do that on her behalf.

I have to clarify on my comment! My mother offered to help me with something and for one I told her NO she can't afford it and two it would be considered a gift !
I can financially take care of myself !
This site is needed for those that are new to taking care of our loved ones etc !! It's not a place to POINT THE FINGER !
I'm the only one here I have nobody helping me thru any of this !
So thank you for your help but I don't need to be JUDGED !

I never once said that and if I did I should rephrase that !!
I don't need or want my moms money it's not worth getting into trouble with Medicaid or SS
My mom has worked her butt off and only deserves the BEST whatever time she has left ! I'm only protecting mom and myself !
I don't need mothers money period

Christine73, Look up "elder financial abuse" on any legal website of your choice.

John Roberts, excellent answer! It would be helpful if you could list a few examples of "noncountable" assets for kittycat (and the rest of us :)!

Come to think of it, this might be a question worthy of its own thread, but I would still appreciate your comments here. Thank you.

Which brings me to my question. Not trying to hijack this thread, but....Pamstegma, you said putting mom's $ in your own name violates POA laws. I carefully read the terms of my POA documents, and I have consulted with an attorney on the things I've done, like sell mom's furniture on her behalf when I gave up her apt. I was never made aware of any "POA laws." Can you point me to a statute?

I opened a separate account in my name where I deposited mom's money and I used it SOLELY for her benefit. I don't have any receipts except what I might have done on my credit card. I withdraw her monthly allowance from the nursing home and I deposit it in an investment account (separate from my funds) which will be used for her final expenses. I paid for her plot myself, I spend over $500 a month of my own $ for her to have a private aide, I buy all her replacement clothes myself (I am not stealing her money), but I take her trust money from the NH and put it in an acct in my own name. If it came to it, I could prove that I spent many times her trust money on things for her, but to make things easier, I have "her" money in my name, since I'm the person accessing it.

Comments?

kittycatzgt, You should NOT be POA or representative payee. When you said "mom helped me with my finances" you gave yourself away. You are just looking for ways to get your hands on her "excess" money. As POA, you have violated the law.

I appreciate everyone helping me with all the advice !!
I'm doing the best I can and want to do it the right way and the legal way !
I guess the best possible answer would be to go to SS and go from there !!

My mother is in a nursing home on medicaid and we were saving her trust fund for final expenses and try to keep it under 2000.00 because of medicaid,but just recently I surrenered her policy because I think they were trying to miss a payment to cancel(I kept it active) They sent a check for 2250.15 which will need to be put toward a plan for for her funeral of given to the nursing home.Can the money be spent on a coffin or other needs,at 96 I am going to face a problem.I have until the end of this month to get a receipt to satisfie nh.Please any advice Thank You!

Kittycatzgt, you're worrying needlessly. Stop. Put the money in an account in your own name. There's no point in putting it in your mom's name since she will not be accessing it, and doing that you would run the risk of her having "too much" money in her name for Medicaid. Spend it on her expenses.

If you don't feel comfortable with a "ghost" account --even though no one will even look, or know--then cash the check! Again, spend it on your mom. Here are some suggestions: pre-paid funeral expenses, a burial plot, a day-date-and time clock from the Alzheimer's store if she has dementia ($75), in fact, you can spend an awful lot in the store on ALZ.org which would benefit your mom if she has dementia, her OWN hospital pillows (brand new hospital pillow from Amazon), soft towels for her to use, her own comforter for her bed, get 3, you'll have to switch them out, clothing from Macy's, PJs from the Macy' Spa Collection (so soft), cranberry pills, a month's worth of toothpaste, floss, body wash, the expensive shampoo or conditioner, artwork for her walls, a nice lamp, books, crayons, a small radio, I could go on...

Several on this forum have given you the answers that you're looking for, namely Pamstegma for one. She gives excellent on point advice!

I just want to do things the right way and not get into any trouble with Medicaid and or social security!
I am POA the NH gets mothers SS and the money for salon visits etc goes into her trust !
The trust account was building so I had them to take it out they sent me the check !
It's issued to mom in care of me !
My question is - what do I do with it ?
Become representative payee ?
Open a checking account in moms name ?
I would like to get a pre paid card and load money on it give it to the NH so if they go out mom has money To spend! And I can keep track on line of what she spends !!
I don't know what to do and I don't want mom to lose Medicaid

Sadly, spend down means buying possible unneeded items, e. g. televisions, a lot of clothing, etc. Thinking back, I now believe that my late mother MAY have done something deemed illegal by Medicaid standards. She was in charge of her older brother when he applied for Medicaid. He deceased. Then she returned a bunch of items that were purchased under the Medicaid spend down rules. It's a moot point now since she also is deceased, but still?

Is Medicaid paying for your Mom's care? If "yes," it's your duty under the Power of Attorney document to manage her business in a way that will not disqualify her from continued coverage for her care. A Medicaid resident can not own countable assets worth more than $2,000, but there are many categories of NONcountable assets.

What is the current balance of your Mom's personal needs account at the nursing home? Ask the nursing home administrator. If your Mom is a Medicaid resident and she is over Medicaid's allowable asset amount, you could use the excess assets to pay for things that she needs that are non countable.

Talk with an elder law attorney in your state, who can guide you to make the best decisions to protect your Mom, and you.

pamstegma you are very helpful. Thank you! I am getting my 93 yr old mom set up with Memory Care today. I am POA both health and financial. I have a joint checking and savings with her SS going direct deposit into checking each month. It sounds like having the facility take over the bookkeeping would be an answer to a dream with them providing a financial report each month or quarterly. This is what I had in my mind but does that sound like a solid plan? Social Security is her only income and no other assets.

I'm sorry, the answer to the question you actually *asked is yes. Again, I would put the money in your name (in a separate account from your personal funds) to avoid having the same issue you're having now. As POA, you can access her accounts and act on her behalf. I would also suggest you re-read your POA document. Know the powers it contains. That way, no one can lie to you

This is an easy question with an easy solution. Withdraw all the money from her account except for a small amount for ongoing, regular expenses. Open a checking, savings, or (careful here) investment account with that money, in your own name. Keep it separate from your personal funds; use it for your mother's expenses. That's what I'm doing.

If the trust was set up properly and your mom didn't go into the NH 5 years or more after that why is it an issue at all?

Sure. My question to you is, how does the nursing home have access to your mom's trust account? As POA, I would change that arrangement fast.

Kitty - if mom is on Medicaid, whatever she has set aside as assets - whether she still has a checking account, savings account or NH personal needs trust account - the $ cannot exceed the asset limit of 2k every month. It sounds like the NH is getting mom's income each month - like her SS check or retirement check - and the $ that set apart for her Personal Needs is going into a PNA trust account at the NH. PNA varies by state. Like for my mom in TX it was $ 60 a mo. If her PNA has gotten too high, then it becomes an issue for Medicaid and will make her ineligible. Neither you or mom or the NH want that to happen.

What I've found in the mice maze adventure that is dealing with Medicaid, is that many of the rules aren't clear to figure out. Your mom's PNA $ can be withdrawn by you if your her DPOA & used to buy her clothes, toiletries, pay on a low cost premium funeral policy. NH biz office should have a ledger just for this purpose.

Some NH have charges that are not covered by Medicaid - like in room phone or cable - and those monthly charges are taken from the PNA. Other NH have them on weekly beauty shoppe visits and the PNA gets spent that way.

But other NH's just let the $ sit. Problem is that it builds up $ each month and then becomes a problem for Medicaid eligibility as moms assets go over 2k. There have been posts on this from family who didn;t understand the PNA system and the Nh went and bought mom an expensive wheelchair to get her over 2K PNA down to under $ 100.

Before you get all upset with the NH, go to biz office and review her PNA funds from her first month @ the NH. If she has been there for a while, it could well be that the NH had mom spend $ 200 or whatever on an outing so she's totally under the asset limit for Medicaid.

BTW mom does NOT have to have her income go to the NH directly. Mom could continue to have a checking account with a check written each mo to the NH for her co-pay and you let the PNA build in her account each mo. I did it this way for my mom at both NH mom was in. Now some NH will press on family for the direct deposit/making NH payee as its easier on all. But they cannot make you do it this way. But if payments are late, there will be late fees that you (not mom) owes. If you miss a payment, mom can be taken off Medicaid. So only go this route if you can be totally all-in for making mom's co-pay to the NH like clockwork.

Yes she's on Medicaid