On what basis can a hospital take guardianship of mom over her POA and 24/7 caregiver?

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Hospital threatened to take guardianship unless I brought an advanced directive. I brought a living will, as there was no advanced directive. Mom is still in hospital, just over three weeks. I know they are buying time by keeping her here. I've taken mom to this hospital many times before. I don't know why other than their anger at my not consenting to some medicines she had known allergies to.

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Just a thought: Whoever is watching your Mom's room via the "very large monitoring camera" might be able to HEAR YOU talking to your Mom, so be careful what you say to her.

Non-medication ways to help your Mom relax are: listening to music-play her favorite songs or hymns on a CD player, your IPhone or IPad or tablet or laptop; if she will allow you to touch her--massage her hands or just hold her hands or lightly give her a back rub; tell your Mom that you love her and reminisce about positive & fun events or activities that your family did while growing up; bring her a (small) bouquet of flowers--we wouldn't want to obstruct the view of the camera ;) have friends and family members visit and talk to your Mom as normal as possible (tell any visitors that they need to avoid complaining about the camera other than saying "What is this big thing doing here?" and then they need to talk about other things with your Mom.

DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE LAWYER with your Mom because the hospital personnel monitoring the camera will be able to hear what you are planning to do. Please let us know how you and your Mom are doing. God Bless!
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Reply to DeeAnna
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CALL YOUR LAWYER ASAP!! You can also contact your state’s Elder Care Ombudsman (each state has a different name for this office)
Many state health departments (Department of Public Health--Dept. of Health & Human Services) have a hospital licensing division that is responsible for ensuring health care facilities comply with state laws and regulations. Patients can register complaints with the hospital licensing division and trained personnel will conduct an investigation and issue a report. Patients should check with their state health departments for information on how to file complaints with the hospital licensing division. You can check this website for your state’s Department of Health.
www.empoweredpatientcoalition.org/report-a-medical-event/report-a-hospital-or-facility/

Oh, Good Lord! What is the **** are these doctors doing? I’m sorry but this hospital is being VERY unprofessional!! The hospitalists are being unprofessional!! Your Mom has been on oxycodone for YEARS and they aren’t giving her ANY narcotic pain medication to take its place?? No wonder your Mom is so restless. She’s experiencing WITHDRAW SYMPTOMS from the oxycodone!!

You left your Mom’s room for one hour and returned to find a very large monitoring camera in her room. {The hospital was waiting for you to leave your Mom's room so that they could put the camera in her room because it normally takes longer to get a camera like that authorized and set up.} THEY may say that the camera is for “fall monitoring”. BUT I have the suspicion that THEY ARE WATCHING YOU to see whether you are going to give your Mom some pain medication since they won’t give her any pain medications. Especially since “They watch from ELSEWHERE in the hospital and CAN TALK through this large camera. It only gets turned off when they clean Mom and the nurse has to call to request it.“ (AND they set it up on FRIDAY evening b/c they know lawyers aren't in their offices over the weekend...they think that you will be defenseless for 2-3 days until you talk to a lawyer on Monday.) A Fall Monitor camera is usually not set up with a camera that someone can "talk through" and with a monitor set up elsewhere in the hospital (Security Department??) so far away from the nurses that they have to CALL someone to have the camera turned off while they are doing patient care.

Please be careful how you act while you are visiting your Mom in the hospital. They are looking for you to do something wrong. Do not get upset with the doctor or the nursing staff. Be calm and concise when you talk with them. Keep a journal of all of the events leading up to today and take photos (quietly) of the camera to show to your lawyer. I wish you luck in dealing with the hospital. It sounds like they are ready and willing to fight you to the death (of your mother) to determine who has control of your Mom’s health care. Good Luck!
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Juju, you can request a change of doctors from a hospitalist to your mother primary. It's probably unlikely that anyone would mention this or suggest it, but it can be done. I did it, in a reverse situation.

The PCP wanted to discharge my father well before he was ready, on a high liter flow of oxygen.
I disagreed, asked to have a hospitalist take over and it was done, after a day or so. PCP was upset, called me at home, but his concern was more whether we would be returning for care than for the specific reason for the switch.

If you have to, go to the charge nurse to make the request, and if that doesn't work, ask if there's an ombudsperson, or ask to see the hospital administrator directly. I've done that in the past as well.
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Reply to GardenArtist
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Old Sailor - yes, they tend to be partial to what they think will work. Mom's primary is easy going and will work with other alternatives if something if causing side effects. Wish he could help her in the hospital.

DeAnna - Mom isn't on NSAIDS. They cause intense gastric pain, even with food or pepsid.

This doctors are hospitalists. They won't even consider her primary suggesting medications. I already tried. Mom is not getting any pain medication. She was awake all night and the doctors will not provide her with anything. She has been on oxycodone for several years.

She's not interested in eating now because of the pain. I explained this to the doctor when she didn't want her to have any. They really don't care, frankly. No matter what I say, nothing is being done.

I left earlier today for an hour and came back to a very large monitoring camera placed in Mom's room. I asked why this was done and they said its for fall monitoring. They watch from elsewhere in the hospital and can talk through this large camera. It only gets turned off when they clean Mom and the nurse has to call to request it.

If only they would be more concerned about her not eating and pain levels.
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Your Mom would be a challenge to any doctor no matter where she is because of her unusual response to medications.

Coumadin 5 mg is a rather high dosage to start on unless there is a crisis. Many doctors start at 2-3 mg per day and work the dosage up after checking INR, clotting time or Prothrombin time (PT) daily or every other day.

Lopressor (metoprolol) is a beta blocker that has also been given to patients diagnosed with LOW blood pressure to INCREASE their blood pressure—so your Mom’s increase blood pressure after taking the medication can occur, it just isn’t one of the EXPECTED results of taking Lopressor.

Does your Mom take any NSAIDS (aspirin, ibuprofen, etc.) as they can interfere with hydralazine’s effect? According to Davis’s Drug Guide for Nurses 12th Edition: “80-90% of Eskimos, Japanese and Chinese are…at risk for decreased levels (of the drug in their blood stream which leads to)…treatment failure.”

Why did the Doctor discontinue pain meds? Did the doctor prescribe ANY pain medication at all? Or did the Doctor discontinue just the more potent pain meds? Has your Mom been taking pain medication prior to her hospitalization? If so, which one?

"for the first time in over a year, Mom was moving her right leg and arm" (she was writhing in pain)...Still, I hadn't seen her move that side in a long time...She follows commands for me", apparently your Mom has NOT moved her arm deliberately to hold a glass or spoon/fork, or uses her arm when eating or getting dress or performing any ADLs. This arm and leg movement might be caused by pain and physical therapy isn't going to help her arm or leg get better function.

Some doctors have a difficult time working with patients who do not have the expected results to medications and are not often willing to listen to the patient or their families which is SAD and counterproductive for the patient and the doctor. Is the doctor who is taking care of your Mom a “Hospitalist” or is it her Primacy Care Physician? You need to continue to be your Mom’s Advocate in this situation.
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It could be that the Doc in the hospital is changing BP meds because HE prefers a certain brand and strength. What does Mom's primary say about this change of med. Somme docs get nasty if you don't follow their Holier than thou scrips.
Had this happen to me twice. I just went back to my original Physician.
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jjariz lopressor; hydralizine

Garden - Great idea! I'll be calling them tomorrow; though I still don't have a discharge date.

Deanna - Mom had a long list of BP medications she had taken for 35 years. Not only did most of them not work, but made her feel lousy. Before her stroke, they started her on coumadin for the first time at 5 mg. Within four days, she was vomiting up blood. She needed 6 units of plasma and almost died. From that point, she refused anticoagulant therapy and that was her choice.

Her blood pressure never responded to these medications like other patients. The more they would give her, the higher it would go. When I would discuss this with the doctors, they would say that's not possible.

Mom's still in hospital. Doctor discontinued pain meds and Mom is hurting pretty bad. The doctor refuses to take out the midline IV that has been hurting for five days now. Mom tells me it hurts and she keeps trying to shake her arm to get it off.

The doctor doesn't believe her. The nurses tell the doctor but she won't do anything for her.

Today, for the first time in over a year, Mom was moving her right leg and arm (she was writhing in pain).

Still, I hadn't seen her move that side in a long time. I brought the nurse in to show her and asked if doctor could maybe order PT consult. Nurse told me PT seen her several weeks ago and said she wouldn't follow commands so they discontinued therapy at that time. Doctor wouldn't reorder consult. She follows commands for me though.
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Reply to Jujubeebee
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I need to clarify something:
Your Mom was taking medications for high blood pressure while she was living with you. When she was hospitalized for dehydration and congestive heart failure (CHF), the doctor at the hospital changed the high blood pressure medications. You objected to the doctor changing the medications because ___________________? You do NOT want your Mom to receive ANY medications for high blood pressure—for what reason? Does your Mom have a past history of adverse reactions or allergic reactions to high blood pressure medications? What medications did your Mom take at home and what medications did she take at the hospital?

You state that your Mom has had a stroke and that you “have always refused certain medicines”.

Is it possible that the hospital thinks that your refusal of certain high blood pressure medications for your Mom may have resulted in your Mom having a stroke and that if you had allowed your Mom to receive these medications, that your Mom might NOT have had a stroke? Or maybe the hospital is concerned because the high blood pressure medications are being given to treat your Mom's CHF and not just to treat the high blood pressure. (Just a guess.). High Blood Pressure is the Number ONE cause of Strokes!

Here are some websites that discuss high blood pressure and stroke:
http://www.strokeassociation.org/STROKEORG/LifeAfterStroke/HealthyLivingAfterStroke/UnderstandingRiskyConditions/Blood-Pressure-and-Stroke_UCM_310427_Article.jsp#.Wvz0OsKou1s

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/HighBloodPressure/LearnHowHBPHarmsYourHealth/How-High-Blood-Pressure-Can-Lead-to-Stroke_UCM_301824_Article.jsp#.Wvz0zMKou1s

https://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/guide/hypertension-high-blood-pressure-stroke#1

I hope that you and the hospital can resolve your differences without too much legal involvement.
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JuJu, Medicare can investigate the discharge decision and prevent the planned release. It's not indefinite, and might be only for a day or two (I don't recall) but it gives you another day or so to work something out that's more satisfactory to you.

Jjariz, I think Juju wrote that her mother was allergic to these meds; I'd have to reread the initial posts, but that's my recollection.
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Why won't you give your Mom blood pressure medication?
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