Hi, my Mom who has vascular dementia / alzheimer's (she is 95) is always asking if we could take a ride to see her house. Not the most recent house but her childhood home. I would guess that is what your Mom is doing, she wants to see the house she grew up in.
People who have dementia/alzheimer's become children again. In my experience my Mom's best memories are of those of her childhood.
Anyway, in answer to your question, in my opinion you WOULD be liable because as her caregiver with POA it's your job to keep her safe. She would not be safe if she went to whatever home she's talking about, not at 91 and certainly not with dementia.
Other members posted some very good responses on what to say to your Mom when she asks.
JennaRose, it is NOT the POA's job to keep anyone safe. A Power of Attorney gives the donee the power to act for the donor of the Power in particular circumstances, that's all. A Guardian has other functions.
It's not a good idea to post as fact what YOU think the law OUGHT to be.
If you have POA then you could stop her but why would you? If mom wants to go home let her if she can manage ok. Install a couple cameras so you can keep an eye on her 24 7 from your computer or Cell phone. I used Nest Cameras for my 95 yr old Dad.
You also need to make sure the shower has shower chair and hand rail so she won't fall.
Can she get dressed and use the bathroom by herself?
Mare sure the refrigerator and freezer has easy food for her to fix in the microwave like breakfast biscuits, pancakes, ect and dinners.
stock Milk, Juice, ceral, Instant hot cereal, eggs, individual apple sauce,yogurt soups. Easy things to fix.
Mare sure no rugs are in her way to trip on.
If she can manage and that's what she wants to do, you should let her as it is her life.
You can go over every day to check in or you could hire a Caregiver to help a couple hrs a day or whatever she can afford.
I have to respectfully disagree. Those with dementia often ask to "go home." Often times, that can mean a number of things: feeling safe, going to a place that made them happy, going to heaven -- lots of things. If your LO has dementia, in my opinion, the worst thing you could do would be to let them go home to live alone. Just my opinion as I have that knowledge as my mom has dementia and often used to ask to go home. When we would ask her where was home, she could never remember. Often times, it's a place in their memories that only they know, and that's okay, too.
She has dementia - YOU make the rules now, not her. How could you even think of letting her leave with dementia - it will end in tragedy. Don't even think of it.
Actually, under the law, she DOESNT make the rules. If she doesn't have guardianship than her mother is still considered a competent adult. If she keeps her mom from leaving, it could be considered kidnapping and lead to her going to jail. How is she supposed to help mom from in jail?
Since you have POA/Guardianship, You are liable and responsible for her health, well being & her bills. It's time for You to make 1 of 3 choices; You move in with her, she moves in with you or a nursing home. I know it's going to be a hard decision but this is just the 1st of a bunch of major lifestyle changes that are coming up. If something happens to her at her house that she needs the ambulance; it falls on your shoulders only, not hers. It's time to make the choice, and very quickly. She might end up being the wandering type.
As I've just posted above: A Power of Attorney gives the donee the power to act for the donor of the Power in particular circumstances, that's all. A Guardian has other functions. OP says she has POA, not guardianship.
It's not a good idea to post as fact what you think the law OUGHT to be.
People with dementia always say, “I want to go home!” My 94 year old mother with dementia often says she wants to go home to her childhood home…where she grew up. So this morning…just to be funny..I said, “ok I’ll drop you off there tomorrow…but someone else lives there now!” Mom’s answer: “Her mother & father lives there….” Conclusion; she may NOT live alone! Hugs 🤗
Yesterday we buried my dear wife of 62 years, She was diagnosed withShort term memory loss four years ago but looking back we found out that she was sick a few years before. while she was still working I was doing all the cooking and the shopping, she was not doing the chores that she used to do, got lost a couple of times and she gave up driving, but she wanted to go see her mom who used to live a few blocks away but deceased for about ten years and she would get lost. I and our children decided that we should move into an Assisted living place, we visited the place a couple of times with her, she never said anything, I moved there and daughter brought her a day later, she never liked the place, we kept the empty house for almost one year, and sold it . Wife always wanted to go home, was told not to take her there, I did a few times, but most of the times she wanted to go to the homes where she grew up as a teenager, one night about one AM she woke me up and say to take her home, I was a little mad and told her that I did not knew where she lived, She replied that she knew where ( Next city about 12 miles away ) Got in the car at about 1,30 AM, she told me where to go, all the turns, the stops, and she guided me there, I told her here you are now get out of the car and go home, she fell silent for a while then she turned to me and said, It is true what they say, You can not go home any more, than she said Let's go home. A couple of months ago her legs gave away, and she could not stand, was bedridden for a couple of month with lots of pain, Thanks to the wonderful people from Hospice that took care of her, was administered morphine and July 14 took the last breath. She knew where she was, was doing Sudoko and Crossword until a month ago, she would spell words for me, but she could not remember what she ate ten minutes ago, Was told that there's no cure or study for this because there is no funds for research.
Why don’t you take her there once in a while if that is feasible. If you feel it is not safe for her to be alone there and you can’t accompany her, make sure she is with a responsible adult. If she is too disabled (mentally or physically) and she is unsupervised, this could be deemed neglect.
When my parents needed help, they moved in with me (out of state) so I could hep with their caretaking.
They were able to keep their house, financially, and did not want to sell it or move out their possessions for sentimental reasons. (This was respected by the family). We visited their home together as much as possible, and it made them happy to go there.
If your parents just needed help, were cognitively fine and wanted to hold on to the house, that works, even "visiting" it.
When a person has dementia, all bets are off. If OP grants mom's wishes to go there, what happens when mom refuses to leave? As I noted in a comment, if mom was still capable enough, she would have found a way to go back to the house. Even hiring someone to stay there might backfire. Before moving mom to MC, aides were hired (only 1hr/day to start) to get her used to having them, with plans to increase time and duties as needed. It was less than 2 months later when she refused to let them in. So, if OP hires help and mom refuses to let them in, then what?
I can't even begin to imagine the potential holy hell that would happen trying to get her back out of the house and into a safe place again! Sometimes it is best to NOT go there - assuage her by saying ok, but put it off to some vague distant time, with no real plans to follow through. This avoids arguments and "hunger strikes."
The secondary issue with dementia is what they mean by "home" anyway? For mom, it was her condo of 25 years for the first 9 months in MC. Then, after a "step back" in time, she totally forgot that place, and was focused on her previous residence AND her mother (gone 40+ years at that point.) Unless we can ask the right questions, we don't know what "home" is. There are MANY instances on the forum of LOs with dementia living IN their own homes who are begging to go home...
When my mom lived in memory care she always asked to go home it broke my heart because I knew she would no longer be safe.I would try to take her for a ride in the truck for a chance to see some new scenery but it would always go back to I want to go home and see my mom and dad.Of course they were already in heaven.I would drive around with tears in my eyes not being able to remedy her pain.......She thought I was her sister Sandy and we need to go home.
POA does not give you the right to control her actions. It is a legal document that allows you to help manage her finances, sign documents with her approval, act in her name, etc. You would need to be appointed her guardian to be liable for her actions.
My mom occasionally want to go home to see her mother. It is sad but in my moms case I noticed if we were watching TV, engaged in a conversation with someone or she is hungry she will say "I had a very nice time but I want to go home now to see my mother". Her wanting to go home stops when we start talking to her and explaining her mom is in heaven and if she does not settle down I will tell her it is late and the wolves are out there and it is so dark she stops immediately. This method does work as a last resort LOL.
We dealt with something similar with my MIL. We didn't have POA, so the legalities were different. But, she decided she wanted to leave and told me she would fight me if she had to to "escape". I have three special needs kids at home, so I stood to the side and she walked out. I called the police and asked for an officer to come write a report. The officer told me that since I had no guardianship, it would be considered kidnapping if I held her against her will. I recommend calling for a free consult with a lawyer to figure out the extent of your responsibilities under the POA. Sometimes, despite what's "best" for someone, we are limited in what we can do. And trying to do the best thing can sometimes come back at us in a negative way. Balancing these is so hard. Eventually, we were able to get guardianship of her and move her into memory care, but it took more than a year of her putting herself in danger before we could convince a judge. Just do the best for her that you can, and you're not doing wrong by making sure you're protected from liability. Taking care of you is just as important.
If she is living with you bc she can't live on her own due to her illness then yes you can stop her. If her life is at risk then do what you have to do to keep her safe.
Look at it from this perspective. You have publicly said here that she has dementia and lives with you. More than likely you have told friends, family etc the same thing. So, yes, if you let her return home without you or someone else being with her, I would say 'yes'. Adult protective or other authority could possibly hold you to some level of responsibility based on your own statement of her mental condition.
You should probably read over your POA document carefully and maybe pay a visit to the lawyer who drew it up if possible. I would ask the lawyer if you would be held liable if mom returned to her home and something happened. POA only becomes active when the person who it's for has become incapacitated and cannot make their own decisions anymore. The one who is appointed POA legally decides for them. Talk to the lawyer who did the POA.
As I said earlier if you Mom is incapacitated and if you have Medical POA then you can make medical decisions regarding her health, well-being, doctors, etc.
Moomoomilkdud you are absolutely correct. We split our time between our house and my MILs (87 y/o) house. When she is at our home, she stays on her “best” behavior. Once we transition to her home, it’s on. Her mouth is disrespectful (but I take care of that immediately), and her head is hard. My husband is the ‘good cop’ and I the ‘bad cop’. He knows now to confer with me when she try’s it. But I must say, she will comply with EVERYTHING my husband says. When she and I are alone, I have to deadbolt us in the house if I need to take a shower, not that she will walk off, but she will go out the door to put the trash out. She is smart enough to know when to make her moves. The steps are very dangerous, but that is a part of her independence she can no longer do. It’s her Kingdom and she is the Queen! I work very hard at compensating for the things that she can no longer do.
Make an appointment with her doctor so they are made aware of her issues. Request the doctor order testing from a neurologist to declare what type of dementia she has. You may request the neurologist to deem her decisional or indecisional. From there, your POA for decision-making stands. Also, you should petition for guardianship on her behalf just to have all of your ducks in a row and to protect her.
POA does not make you liable for her actions, but I would suspect APS would intervene if she is left on her own. I struggled with my mom wanting to be in HER house. I allowed it for a short term(2 weeks} after my step-father passed away. I had a cousin stay with her at night. In week #1 she turned off the power in the house and did not know how to turn it back on. I had to coach her over the phone from 12 hours away. In week #2, "Ms. Independent" fell and broke her hip. The anesthesia from surgery exacerbated her dementia. I was advised while she was in rehab that she needed to be placed in MC. So, that made the decision for me. Do what is safe for her and remember that our loved ones ALWAYS want to go home. My mom does not even remember that house now.
My mom is in assisted living and is doing better than she was in her own home. When she asked to go home, I listened to her and the carefully said, “mom-the doctors have said you cannot live alone, so if I take you home, I will have to call the doctors and call the county’s senior services for them to evaluate you. On the other hand, in your apartment, you get to have your independence, keep the temperature where you want it, eat meals that are prepared for you and have medications give to you on a schedule that complies with your doctor’s orders. Give this apartment a try since you like it. You are different now and that is okay, you are safe and you can trust me and most important God loves you and you know it because He has provided for you. It has now been 9 months and in a visit with her niece last weekend, she said happily that this place is wonderful, I don’t know who found it-I just woke up one day and was here!” That was music to my ears. Truth is, she choose it from the ones I vetted and she took a tour 2 months later of the other apartments and decided she had the best one in the place. Her home is sold and she will never be told, she doesn’t ask and I believe she likes to be under the radar (no county evaluation). She remembers somethings well; glad it was this protections of her freedoms in Assisted Living.
In my state the fact that your mom lives with you could make you liable no matter the POA status.
A few months ago while my dad was living in my house he fell and went to the hospital. That happened frequently. On that day when I went to the hospital to pick him up I was read the riot act by an adult protective services social worker.
She explained that because my dad lived in my house and I provided more than half of his financial support - free housing - he was a defacto dependent of mine. Therefore I was responsible for his person. I could be charged with elder abuse neglect and elder abuse permitting self-harm. Each offense could result in a fine of $1500-$3000 per day.
I was terrified. That was the day I realized he was a danger to me.
To be clear, I was not his POA or guardian at the time. I did not claim him as a dependent on my taxes. He merely lived in my house for free and I helped take care of him. So beware.
the general rule is like this: --if someone is legally competent, they can live at home, how ever they wish (even if it's dangerous). --the trouble is, when someone is legally incompetent. your mother has dementia. (there are different degrees of dementia). she might not be legally competent. then family has to try to do the right thing. and yes, APS does sometimes intervene.
People who have dementia/alzheimer's become children again. In my experience my Mom's best memories are of those of her childhood.
Anyway, in answer to your question, in my opinion you WOULD be liable because as her caregiver with POA it's your job to keep her safe. She would not be safe if she went to whatever home she's talking about, not at 91 and certainly not with dementia.
Other members posted some very good responses on what to say to your Mom when she asks.
Best to you!
Jenna
It's not a good idea to post as fact what YOU think the law OUGHT to be.
If mom wants to go home let her if she can manage ok. Install a couple cameras so you can keep an eye on her 24 7 from your computer or Cell phone.
I used Nest Cameras for my 95 yr old Dad.
You also need to make sure the shower has shower chair and hand rail so she won't fall.
Can she get dressed and use the bathroom by herself?
Mare sure the refrigerator and freezer has easy food for her to fix in the microwave like breakfast biscuits, pancakes, ect and dinners.
stock Milk, Juice, ceral, Instant hot cereal, eggs, individual apple sauce,yogurt soups. Easy things to fix.
Mare sure no rugs are in her way to trip on.
If she can manage and that's what she wants to do, you should let her as it is her life.
You can go over every day to check in or you could hire a Caregiver to help a couple hrs a day or whatever she can afford.
It's not a good idea to post as fact what you think the law OUGHT to be.
Conclusion; she may NOT live alone! Hugs 🤗
while she was still working I was doing all the cooking and the shopping, she was not doing the chores that she used to do, got lost a couple of times and she gave up driving, but she wanted to go see her mom who used to live a few blocks away but deceased for about ten years and she would get lost.
I and our children decided that we should move into an Assisted living place, we visited the place a couple of times with her, she never said anything, I moved there and daughter brought her a day later, she never liked the place, we kept the empty house for almost one year, and sold it .
Wife always wanted to go home, was told not to take her there, I did a few times, but most of the times she wanted to go to the homes where she grew up as a teenager, one night about one AM she woke me up and say to take her home, I was a little mad and told her that I did not knew where she lived, She replied that she knew where ( Next city about 12 miles away ) Got in the car at about 1,30 AM, she told me where to go, all the turns, the stops, and she guided me there, I told her here you are now get out of the car and go home, she fell silent for a while then she turned to me and said, It is true what they say, You can not go home any more, than she said Let's go home.
A couple of months ago her legs gave away, and she could not stand, was bedridden for a couple of month with lots of pain, Thanks to the wonderful people from Hospice that took care of her, was administered morphine and July 14 took the last breath.
She knew where she was, was doing Sudoko and Crossword until a month ago, she would spell words for me, but she could not remember what she ate ten minutes ago,
Was told that there's no cure or study for this because there is no funds for research.
Sincerest sympathies dear truppecantele.
May your fondest memories comfort you now.
When my parents needed help, they moved in with me (out of state) so I could hep with their caretaking.
They were able to keep their house, financially, and did not want to sell it or move out their possessions for sentimental reasons. (This was respected by the family). We visited their home together as much as possible, and it made them happy to go there.
When a person has dementia, all bets are off. If OP grants mom's wishes to go there, what happens when mom refuses to leave? As I noted in a comment, if mom was still capable enough, she would have found a way to go back to the house. Even hiring someone to stay there might backfire. Before moving mom to MC, aides were hired (only 1hr/day to start) to get her used to having them, with plans to increase time and duties as needed. It was less than 2 months later when she refused to let them in. So, if OP hires help and mom refuses to let them in, then what?
I can't even begin to imagine the potential holy hell that would happen trying to get her back out of the house and into a safe place again! Sometimes it is best to NOT go there - assuage her by saying ok, but put it off to some vague distant time, with no real plans to follow through. This avoids arguments and "hunger strikes."
The secondary issue with dementia is what they mean by "home" anyway? For mom, it was her condo of 25 years for the first 9 months in MC. Then, after a "step back" in time, she totally forgot that place, and was focused on her previous residence AND her mother (gone 40+ years at that point.) Unless we can ask the right questions, we don't know what "home" is. There are MANY instances on the forum of LOs with dementia living IN their own homes who are begging to go home...
Thank you for your response. I’m curious, what was it like getting guardianship?
Any insight on the process?
I would ask the lawyer if you would be held liable if mom returned to her home and something happened.
POA only becomes active when the person who it's for has become incapacitated and cannot make their own decisions anymore. The one who is appointed POA legally decides for them.
Talk to the lawyer who did the POA.
https://www.agingcare.com/topics/55/power-of-attorney-poa
https://info.legalzoom.com/article/responsibilities-medical-durable-power-attorney-elderly
As I said earlier if you Mom is incapacitated and if you have Medical POA then you can make medical decisions regarding her health, well-being, doctors, etc.
There are 2 types of POA's: Medical and Financial
Hope this helps,
Jenna
this place is wonderful, I don’t know who found it-I just woke up one day and was here!” That was music to my ears. Truth is, she choose it from the ones I vetted and she took a tour 2 months later of the other apartments and decided she had the best one in the place. Her home is sold and she will never be told, she doesn’t ask and I believe she likes to be under the radar (no county evaluation). She remembers somethings well; glad it was this protections of her freedoms in Assisted Living.
A few months ago while my dad was living in my house he fell and went to the hospital. That happened frequently. On that day when I went to the hospital to pick him up I was read the riot act by an adult protective services social worker.
She explained that because my dad lived in my house and I provided more than half of his financial support - free housing - he was a defacto dependent of mine. Therefore I was responsible for his person. I could be charged with elder abuse neglect and elder abuse permitting self-harm. Each offense could result in a fine of $1500-$3000 per day.
I was terrified. That was the day I realized he was a danger to me.
To be clear, I was not his POA or guardian at the time. I did not claim him as a dependent on my taxes. He merely lived in my house for free and I helped take care of him. So beware.
hug!
terrible. and you're just being kind, helping your father.
dear moomoo -- i believe the laws are different from place to place. take a look for example, at this article (elder abandonment laws).
https://www.findlaw.com/elder/elder-abuse/elder-abandonment.html
the general rule is like this:
--if someone is legally competent, they can live at home, how ever they wish (even if it's dangerous).
--the trouble is, when someone is legally incompetent. your mother has dementia. (there are different degrees of dementia). she might not be legally competent. then family has to try to do the right thing. and yes, APS does sometimes intervene.
as others have warned here, be careful.
hug!!
bundle of joy
If someone is incompetent, and a family caregiver was to prevent them from returning to live in an empty house, no legal issues would arise.
Is Mom with dementia and no short-term memory going to file charges?
Hardly.