What should kids do if Mom stops us from preventing Dad to drive?

she's clearly in denial about her husband's ability to do things keep saving those incident reports and then show them to her if she doesn't change her mind that I suggest taking her to court and getting her punished for refusing to do anything and if possible try to get guardianship because if she keeps doing things like this she's putting others at risk it's better to be safe than sorry and do something you would rather not because if you don't do something and someone gets killed it's your fault and I'm sorry if I'm being a little bit hard on people for in your position but sometimes you have to do what is right and not just what is easy

Thanks for your update. It's good to know that he's no longer driving. I hope your mom will accept help. It could be that she's just not mentally able to process accepting it.

Well, finally Dads license was revoked. Thank goodness. I convinced my brothers to not help Mom & Dad for a while. Mom lies & tells everyone thT she handles everything herself, that she doesn't need help, so I told my brothers thT we should make her literLly handle it a all in order to force her to see thT she can't do it all. It is hard not to step in & help, but she is beginning to see she can't. She had spoken very mean to my oldest brother & my sister & told them she didn't need any help from any of us & didn't wNt us coming around butting in & now that she has begun to see the truth she apologized. I have stopped taking her everywhere she wants to go, stopped cleaning that filthy house & cooking meals ahead for her. Now we have an excuse when she wants us to do something. Normally she only asks us to do the things that cost money so she doesn't have to pay. My parents can afford everything within reason & us kids are all on fixed incomes so they can afford it better than we can. I told siblings to not allow her to just use us when money is involved. We love them both & are ready to step in in an emergency, but Mom has to see for herself that she is not capable of handling it all. She still drives him to stores & sends him in to buy stuff & people are taking advantage of him & money is disappearing in large amounts. She gets furious at Dad, but he can't help it. His dimentia is too bad now. This may sound bad, but she is slowly starting to realize that she does need help & that we were just trying to be there for them. This is how it had to play out, because it is better than arguing & fussing about things.

Jan,
Step back from this blog for a while...............come back when your head has cooled off..............decisions this HUGE need to be done with a cool head and a calm heart. No, I did not read all 34 postings. I browsed thru a few and made me very anxious. That is why I suggest you step away from the blog, and connect with your spiritual Higher Being / pray / see what legal options you need to take. If you cannot think, ask for help from someone local that can be with you during this difficult time. Keep us posted, don't "stay" away, ok? Hugs, Mulata88

Sounds like a scare tactic to me. In my state, DHS would only do that if there were no assets, nothing to pay a private guardian.

Pink & Glad, DHS told me that if I filed a report with them & they were deemed unable to live alone that they would help me to try to become their guardian, not DHS, but if I don't file a report & the doctors office, neighbor or other reports them as needing assistance then DHS would get guardianship themselves & they would put them both in a home they want them in plus put their home & all properties up for sale & take complete control of their entire estate & us kids would have no say about anything.

But, Pink, if the guardian is any good, they will attempt to work with the children before just choosing and moving them. The guardian will want a good working relationship with them. We shopped and shopped, the guardian provided us with places that she thought would be suitable. Ultimately we made the decision on one of them.

We needed the guardian because of a very high level of dysfunction that included the twisted sisters picking a place that my mom and her hubby would share a very small apartment, so expenses would be lower for both. The guardian nipped that idea in the bud quite quickly. She understood immediately that even with assisted living type help combined with my Mom's level of care that her hubby would not be able to provide the necessary care, even with the limited amount of time they would be together alone (now they are only permitted to have lunch together, a facility decision because of mom's sundowning behaviors), especially with a move that often causes a sudden, drastic decline in the one with dementia.

When my twisted sisters paid the required deposit, they had not even talked with mom's hubby about it, and he is perfectly competent to make his own decisions. And they did not have his POA's nothing! He was quite flabbergasted by this and hurt.

If you petition for Guardianship, just be sure that you are prepared for the Guardian to make all decisions that you might not approve of. I was at my wits end with problems with my mother. Its too involved to explain. Suffice to say that the social worker from protective services advised me that when a guardian is appointed; you have no control if they have to be placed in a facility if they are not competent to live at home without 24 hour care. At this point, the patient/patients can be placed in any facility/long term care or skilled nursing facility decided by the guardian. And it could be one of the worst facilities; but the guardian has control. You would have relinquished your rights to choose. It is just a thought to consider if your parent/parents were deemed incompetent to live at home without 24 hour care. After I was told all this, I decided to not attempt guardianship as I wanted control over where my mother would be placed. She ended up in one of the best skilled nursing facilities that I had chosen. Just a thought if it comes to that. Take care and hope some things get resolved. This is never easy.

Your county sounds really odd. I've never heard of Adult Protective Services not completing an investigation because the spouse of the adult at risk won't talk to them. There are other ways. Very bizarre.

Check and see if in your state, the law allows you to get your attorney fees reimbursed if you prevail at a Competency Hearing. If they have the funds, you may recover your fees. It would be worth it to have an experience attorney handle it, IMO.

Also, it sounds like mom is incompetent too. The way she's behaving sounds like she is not living in reality. I might file for both and ask the court to appoint a guardian for each. That way you don't have to deal with them as the decision maker.

In a Petition for Guardianship, some states will immediately order an evaluation of the person to be conducted by a trained professional. It's not likely they can put a spin on that. They also do interviews and tour the home. So, it's not a matter of them just showing up in court and denying there's a problem.

Windy's right - we went thru this with our mom - she went nuclear, then made us responsible for keeping her life as it was. It was ugly, but Dad was off the road and everyone was safe. And about inheritance.....with AL and NH (for both parents)...nada.

Jan, I just reviewed this thread. What a mess you're in. But the only way I see to resolve this is to overrule mom. Dementia or not she is endangering lives. I find it hard to believe that any cop taking one look at this situation would arrest anyone. I talked to the local cops in my folks area and they promised to help me get Dad off the road when the time comes. But I do understand your local guys may be different.

I don't want to sound judgmental but it seems to be a situation of DAMN THE TORPEDOES, FULL SPEED AHEAD. You guys need to set mom straight and get Dad off the road. She'll scream, hate you, call the lawyer, call,the cops whatever, but I don't see that you have anything to lose. Well, your inheritance maybe. There's that........

If your dad is shopping for your mom, then I'm assuming she doesn't drive. This will be a huge adjustment for both of them, which may be an added factor in your mom's denial.

As someone wrote on this forum (ff, I think), when you take away the ability to drive, you have to be ready with the alternative. The alternative is usually the family providing transportation to stores, doctors appointments and social outings. It'd be advisable for you and the sibs to start discussing among yourselves just how you can handle this. It takes compromise from both parties - the parents have to compromise on changes in the way they always do things (shop at one store, not four, working with your schedule when making appointments) and the children have to integrate the additional committments into their lives. You may be able to reduce the drama if you can present the parents with a plan to help alleviate their concerns about what happens after your dad stops driving.

Have you contacted the DMV to see when his license was, or will be revoked?

What does insurance agent have to say about his not showing up for a driving test? Will they cancel his insurance, at which time he would be notified he no longer has any coverage?

Kathy1951 and 3pinkroses, thanks for your info, however, I have already spoken to the Chief of Police who informed me that if us kids took the cars away & Mom reported them as stolen by us that he would be forced by Oklahoma Law to arrest us for theft. Likewise, if we go out and do something to the cars so they won't run & they report it, he would arrest us for that as well. In Oklahoma the law is very limiting as to what he can do to help us. I did get DMV (finally with letter from the doctor) to send him a letter requiring him to be retested by 2/29/16 or his license would be revoked. Obviously, he still has them & is still driving & the Chief of Police said they cannot just pull him over unless he has done something wrong, like no seatbelt, speeding, etc. If they catch him doing something wrong & pull him over, then they will have the car towed away, give him a ticket & call for someone to come get him. Meanwhile, my Dad is taking 6 days worth of medicine at once, getting lost, people swindling him out of his money when he goes to the stores for Mom, because he cannot count money now nor even speak but mostly one word at a time. I know that in some states more can be done, but I even filed a report with DHS for help, but when they went for a home visit to check everything out, Mom would not speak with them. So they are of no help, except if he gets lost & a police helps him they will contact DHS. If DHS sees that I have been begging for help, then they will step in & help me get legal guardianship. Of course, even then if my Mom is a good enough liar to the judge & he/she doesn't take a close look at her physical health & see she is in no shape to even walk across the room unaided, she could still win the case. It is very difficult here in Oklahoma to force the issue & many times it takes a serious accident before anything can be done. I have done all I can legally, other than suing my parents, which I just can't afford, nor would I want to really. I have otherwise, decided to let the good Lord handle things the way that only he can. This is so hard on me, because my Dad needs a special diet for his diabetes & other issues, needs his heart & other meds exactly on schedule, he needs to be pushed to bathe now (always meticulous in the past), and the list goes on & on. Without proper care that he is not getting, he will most definately not live a whole lot longer. I am a get the job done type person, so I am really having trouble with this. I hope no one else out there has the problems to the extent we are having here with this.

So are you saying that none of the children have written a letter to the DMV in Oklahoma which would force the testing? I think often families rely too much on wanting the doctor to do this job, and it isn't really the doctor's job to point things like this out to the DMV unless the doctor feels strongly about it (such as after witnessing a seizure or syncopal episode threatening driving). The letter does not TAKE THE LICENSE AWAY, it triggers the DMV to suspend the license for testing. In Minnesota the reporter is anonymous. The letter has to state what the reasons are, but DMV give you cues on what reasons would qualify. You have to sign your name and relationship to support why you have knowledge. You indicted there was already some type of letter sent to him by the DMV? Has his license already been suspended, and how can you check on that? If children hide a car and the parent calls police to report it stolen and police are told its at a daughter's house because his license is suspended and he won't stop driving, that doesn't get very far as a theft. You don't need doctor's records to prove safety concerns to the DMV. You write about inattentiveness, slow reaction time to traffic situations, multiple small incidents even in parking lots and even without police reports, perhaps vision limitations or hearing limitations with refusal to use glasses or a hearing aid, inability to attend to full picture of the visual field and integrate information quickly, emotional distress when lost leading to potential to go up a wrong street, etc. All of this only triggers a behind the wheel test. If they don't come, the license is revoked and getting it back requires the written and behind the wheel.

Here is a plan: TAke the care away..Do it with a sibling if you need to. Tell them they can have it back as soon as he passes a driver's test. You can get a private 'driving evaluation' at some of the larger rehab centers (Courage Center in Mpls for example) or he can go to the DMV and get his test. Other than that, this is your first real ethical challenge: Do you recognize your duty to the other people on the road? If someone's 2yo gets killed by your Dad, how could you justify knowing all that you know and yet not taking his car away????? Elder care is not for the faint of heart thats for sure....its hard stuff, but this is a priority. Maybe he will pass his test and prove you wrong??? That can happen.

It always astounds me when I read about an elderly person who doesn't remember what year it is, can't remember how many children they had, or get lost walking around the block, yet they insist on getting behind the wheel...and are crafty enough, 'with-it' enough, to know how to call AAA to come fix the car, or a locksmith to come and make them a new key for that car. Some even call ads in the newspaper to bring a car for sale over and come up with cash to pay for it! (It would seem to us horrified onlookers that driving is the last gasp of independence if they could do that! But the sad truth is, no matter how much they are determined to keep driving, they simply are not safe to themselves or others behind the wheel. They are an accident waiting to happen.)

I totally agree with Lassie. We went thru absolute h*ll with my mother-in-law and stopping her driving. She had advancing dementia and always been a stubborn, stubborn person. We were able to go to doctor visits with her. We had already told the doctor in advance of visit that she should not be driving. He told her she was not to drive anymore. She would not listen to him. So, he wrote to DMV and told them she was not allowed to drive anymore and license should be revoked. The doctor called her several times about not driving. DMV sent letter of revocation of license. She would not listen. So, we first disengaged the battery so car would not start. She calls AAA and they fix it. So next took the keys - she wanted to get new ones made. So, we took the car which she had previously said our daughter could have when she was not driving anymore. We told her our daughter had the car. She called three or more times per day demanding to know where car was.

Yes, it is difficult to force a loved one not to drive anymore. But, what is more difficult is for her to bring harm to herself and others. She had plenty of people helping her and driving her. We were very patient and kind to her with respect to this issue. It took months for her to accept; but, we could not allow her drive and hurt others. My heart goes out to you dealing with this, but it has to be done.

Even if he gets a letter saying his license is suspended or insurance is cancelled, he won't read it or stop driving. This calls for drastic action. You have to get them out of the house and while you are out to dinner, a 'doctor's appointment' or whatever, someone else must take the car keys out of the house, or even better, remove the car from the driveway. Park it somewhere out of sight. 'OMG the car has been stolen!' terrible pity! Let the screaming start!... (do you think they're still capable of going out and buying another car, though?? it could happen!) ....other than that, I guess you have done what you can do and will just wait for something terrible to happen. I would go ahead and have the car 'stolen', I wouldn't want to be responsible for allowing this to go on and then have a tragedy happen. When my husband's aunt mistook the gas pedal for the brake and crashed into a grocery store, even she realized, 'welp, time to give up driving, I guess.'

Your mother needs to be overruled whether legally or not. They are going to get hurt or kill someone else driving or end up in the ER due to mixing up meds. The car should be disabled. Your mom getting mad and yelling is by far the lesser of two evils.

If your father doesn't appear for the drivers' test as scheduled at the DMV, in Michigan his license would automatically be cancelled. The next time there's an incident, the police will check with DMC records and find that his license has been revoked.

If you know who their vehicle insurance agent and/or carrier is, I would notify them of the attempts you've made as well as the fact that a notice has been sent to your father.

This is a really sad situation; your mother is afraid and is trying to cling to days when they both were healthier. It's hard for people (young and old) to make the leap to serious life changes.

Jan, I'm so sorry that you are going through this. You called APS, the police and the doctor. That's all any of us can do. Do come back to vent, let us know how things are going.

One thought. If you haven't, make sure that you've sent this information to police,DMV, the doctor and APS via mail, return reciept requested. Sometimes, if theres a paper trail, you get more action.

Sorry my computer is worn out & it cuts off words & etc at will. Anyway, as I was saying, I think maybe it would be good to force her to see that she has to have help, whether she wants it or not. She just doesn't trust anyone, not even any family member. She is afraid everyone is after their money. Now I truly understand the saying that money is the root of all evil. No one is after their money. Now, I have turned this over to the good Lord to handle it, because we sure can't. Thanks for letting me vent. Sometime

Well here we are now over 6 month later & Dad is still driving. He has gotten lost several times (some even when Mom was with him) & had at least 3 other incidents. I spoke with the Chief of Police who could not help even with advice. DMV cannot help without something from the doctor, so I wrote a letter to the doctor & explained what is going on & enclosed a form from DMV & asked if she would please help get him off the streets. It seems the VA doctors are not allowed to request license be revoked, only to request he be retested. So he received the request by mail & we believe he is ignoring it (but don't know that for certain). Surely he could not pass a test, because he can no longer even talk properly. He can't find words now, so his speech is mostly Yes or No & he usually says the opposite of what he means. My mother now won't allow us to take him to the doctor without her, where she lies about alot of things to the doctors. She refuses to take control of his meds & lies & tells people she gives him every dose herself. I caught him one morning & he had taken 6 days worth of heart meds & 6 days worth of blood thinners & was sick because of it. She now is now allowing 2 of my siblings to even visit or hangs up if they call. She revealed to me that this is all because she knows that if Dad goes into a memory care facility that she is not physically able to live alone. I have offered to let them live with me, but she won't have that or us coming into their home to help them. So, with a heavy heart & my frantic concern of a possible overdose killing Dad, I finally called Adult Protective Service & spoke with them. They were supposed to have done a home visit within 72 hours & I was told someone would call me before they did & then to update me after they did it. It has been 2 weeks from tomorrow & I've heard nothing. I do know that my mother could very likely refuse to let them in. So, we are still at a stalemate. Dad is still driving, although now it has to be illegally. Mom is unable to even drive to the store & go in & buy groceries or drive to the bank or wherever & walk all the way in. I think the only way we are going to be able to force this issue is to force her to do everything on her own & not be there to help. That sounds terrible, but she is one of these people that she will have to see that she can not do it herself. Let her be

What does your father have to say when you approach him about this? Stop going through your mother. Deal with him direct.

Meanwhile, tell your mother that if she encourages him to continue to use hazardous machinery in spite of the accidents, which are clear evidence that he is no longer able to do this safely, then you will hold her responsible for any harm that comes to him and you will say so to any authority that will listen.

Unless your father has been declared incompetent and you have power of attorney for him, that's about all you can do. You're not their boss.

Explain to MOM she had better have a good lawyer because when/if he hits/hurts/maims/kills someone they are going to sue the living h*ll out of his estate

In Washington State, there is a Dept of Licensing, where form area available to fill out and submit to DMV. They will contact your Dad to have his driving re-evaluated. If your Dad got a lawyer he could find out who turned him in as it is not anonymous. If you are uncomfortable, his doctor could also submit a request for him to be professionally evaluated.
Get this done asap... we are all on the road too and want to be safe.

I wen through something similar with my husband. My children and I agreed that he must not drive anymore even tho we had tried and FAILED big time to get him to stop. So one night our son took his car keys home with him. The next morning the crisis came when my husband discovered his keys were gone and we told him. He got more and combative and confrontational as the day wore on. At 4 p.m.I called for help. He was taken to the hospital and a few days later into a memory care facility. We are all very sad about this but they are taking care of him now and we no longer have to worry about his driving.

Kathy1951, yes a child's duty is to keep them & others safe, but I conferred with an attorney & here in Oklahoma, we don't have the legal right to do anything at this point. We can't get proof from the doctor without one of the parents allowing it (& they won't), we cannot take the vehicles away or Mom will call the police & report we have stollen them, if we disable them they will call the garage & have them fixed, so it is not a question of our not being willing to do anything about it. We are searching for some way to do it legally & that won't cause one of us to wind up in jail doing. We are keeping detailed records of all incidents & dates, what doctor has said & so on so we maybe could prove (if we have to at some point) that she knew all along that he is having safety issues but refused to act in his & others best interests. We do care, but it is almost impossible to prove these things without doctors records, which she won't allow us near. We are trying to find away to finagle & trick Dad into letting one of us get them. We are trying best we know how.

I think the duty of the child of a person who should not drive is to consider the safety of others. While my mom sure wanted to keep driving, it was not OK to risk her killing someone's child in a car accident. It was not hard to do, just hard to have the moral strength to do. I logged on to the state DMV website and searched taking driver's license away. I also found the guidelines they use as limitations which make driving dangerous. I composed a letter to the DMV saying what the reasons were that she should not drive any more. They don't take the DL away with that, and they keep the letter-writer anonymous, but they schedule a behind the wheel test and if she doesn't show up, she loses the license and has to take the whole test (including written) all over. She just didn't go, saying she could take it later. She had been in the hospital with a small stroke, so we blamed it on the fact that she had a stroke that they would want to test her. But there were enough physical and judgment reasons for her to stop driving. We had her take a private driving eval a year earlier and she barely passed, but that helped us wait longer and feel OK about it. Those are available in most cities through private businesses or through larger rehab centers.