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Jspy, I'm glad you've arrived a decision and plan of action. I think you're right about the building - brother will always find an excuse, someone else's fault and/or cause. Underground water can severely destabilize a building and cause massive damage. I think the building is a "goner" at this point.

Sometimes the hardest part of being an adult caregiver is recognizing when that point of no change, no return, and the turn around and pursue a different course of action time has arrived.

I wish you well on this next phase of caregiving.
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Thank you for your thoughts and well wishes. I'm not expecting my parents to make any changes though. When they are gone is when it will really all explode. We'll see. I just need to stay sane and be able to sleep. Always so many worries in life isn't there though..............
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Hoarding is a disease. It will not go away without a social worker's intervention.
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I agree but he would never listened to a social worker. He places himself above all. Very difficult to deal with and when confronted throws a tantrum.
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One other great suggestion was rendered that could help keep SOME of the acrimony between parties at a minimum and yield progress. That is to find a Geriatric Care Specialist if such is available in your area. There is a cost but they are full of resources, know how to play good cop/bad cop to the get the best possible answers and care for your parents, aren't worried about what anyone but your parents think of them, know how to gain their trust, and will take the onus off your being the 'bad guy.' Their sole focus would be your parents' health and well-being (and they could totally set up the in home care you have sought for your folks.) Your brother(s) in denial may still be unwilling to accept an objective outside opinion but a professional should have much more clout with authorities to help convince them.
All of GardenArtist's points are spot on. It appears you care for your parents but cannot change or undo all the bad behavior and bad decisions. Therefore, press on with your efforts to see your parents cared for before there's a crisis that forces other knee jerk and possibly bad decisions. Sad to say this, but it can/will be a long process, not an immediate fix: getting the right health help, legal help, even emotional help for yourself, and just STARTING to clean up such a mess. Prayers for your continued health and sanity...
p.s. My advice: after clarifying POA and Trust issues, sell that building at whatever cost and get that money in a place that can only be legally accessed to pay for your parents' needs, not to support others.... Even at a loss, that could be useful taxwise and could certainly get rid of at least one, and maybe many issues!
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Take legal advice that is best for you.
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Yes, agreed..retain an attorney. He throws a tantrum because he has a disease. Geriatric Care Spec.-yes.
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Well the latest is that I went to the house because Dad had a fever. Brother had been there Sunday, said and did nothing. My son stopped by and called me. I went Monday, left work to do so; to take him to the ER because at 88 a fever of 102 is not good. He hadn't been out, no flu; so I found him sitting in a Urine soaked chair. Got his fever down, cleaned up and put in bed because he wouldn't go to hospital. Next Morning, still had Fever, I insisted he go. Did get brother who does not work to take him only because I told my parents to get him since I do have to work. He was admitted. I went after work; 9pm; he did have a Urine infection. He also was kept in cardiac unit due to AFIB. It happened because he couldn't get out of the chair to get to the bathroom. I insisted we get a lift chair but my parents already own one that was my grandfathers. They gave it to Hoarding brother (he had a wife that had cancer and used it until she passed). He kept the chair. I texted him and said Dad needs the chair. I arranged for my son to get a truck and pick it up. Brother refuses to give it up; says he uses it. Tells mom and dad he is waiting for my son to come when it can work out. Tells my son he is not giving it up until he gets another chair. He is playing us all. He acts to them like it is my son's fault it was not brought over. Meanwhile I brought Dad home last night, brother had to go to choir practice after insisting my son should of left his job to do it at 11am. He knew darn well my son could not leave work and the truck would be a company truck he would need to borrow after work hours. Brother doesn't work. I texted both brothers and said, You two work it out and get the chair there, Dad needs it. Hoarding brother texted back I am bullying him! Other brother called mom and said to call her insurance and get a chair. Unbelievable! Yes I am in for Huge problems. Hardly slept last night over the stress. I told my parents we need to go buy a chair. None of us can deal with the brother. Dad says he's fine, doesn't need the chair. Anyway, hospital visit produced a scheduled 2 visits by social worker/nurse so I plan to be there and take advice from them. With all this happening my mother is now scared; realizing she could end up in that house alone. I had to drop Dad off and go get new prescriptions filled. Realized Mom is not really very with it. She couldn't find insurance cards and didn't eat dinner; only drank a boost all day. I ended up feeding her and never got home until bedtime. It is going to be a long, long haul. Because they have a dog; they will not leave the house. I really appreciate all your feedback. I see others asking questions and am unable to give the feedback but maybe as I go through all this I will learn enough to give help to others down the road. I will inquire about a Generic Care Specialist. As I will regain some of my parents trust I will find out about the POA. My mother wanted me to go to the business to learn to do the bills, taxes; etc...But I just can't subject myself to either brother who are both there. That is a bigger issue than figuring out my parents care needs. Today I go to the medical store and get supplies to keep him dry; then work.
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Call adult protective services. You WILL experience caregiving burnout.
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I already feel the burnout coming. Stressing over all that lies ahead.
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After a trying weekend, getting my father home from the hospital and set up with medical supplies, getting my son to work with my difficult brother to get the lift chair back and in my parents house; taking them food and bringing home the soiled wash; I called this morning and finally asked my father what the plan was for POA. He informed me it was the Bank. I clarified it and said; you mean the bank is your POA for both finances and health; he said yes. I asked why when he has three kids and three grandkids all living within 5 minutes; they would have the bank make those decisions. His answer was because we (myself and the two brothers) do not get along. I think then the bank should do all these things I just spent my past week doing. Hard not to feel bitter. Any input on that?
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I find this new development so disturbing, frustrating, disappointing that I actually started crying as I read your last 2 posts. I honestly don't know how you can hold it all together at this point. I frankly would be ready to throw in the towel and walk away from the situation.

Between the brother and your father, it seems as though all your efforts to work out some kind of viable plan are resisted and defeated w/o even giving them a try.

There might be a saving grace though. Banks normally won't handle a trust without a sufficient income stream. As I recall from years ago, one bank charged 7% of an asset portfolio just to manage a trust. It will look to the assets to ensure that the commitment is going to justify its time. I'm sure it would do the same for POA responsibilities, if it would even consider being involved, and that's a big "if".

I don't know what a bank would charge to act as DPOA, but is certainly isn't going to do it for free. I also don't know whether or not a bank would want to review your father's assets to ensure there are sufficient funds to pay it, and pay it. it most certainly will! Your father doesn't seem to realize he's in a financial dilemma already and adding an additional cost is going to deplete what assets he has.

In addition, if he has raised the property management issue, I assume the bank would likely send someone to review the building before accepting any responsibility. When they see the condition it's in, it won't take long to make a negative decision and refuse to include any management of that white elephant.

As to an MPOA, that clearly reflects your father's irrational thinking. Does he think a bank manager is going to be available in the middle of the night to make medical decisions for him? But I'm guessing he still expects you to be involved when he needs assistance. However, and this is the key for you, you wouldn't have ANY standing in terms of significant decisions, depending on how thorough an MPOA is drafted. And that really ties your hands and binds you from providing care as might be needed.

I just can't imagine a bank accepting this responsibility.

However, at this point I think that you're headed for so much stress you're going to be the next hospital guest, and I don't mean just taking someone and picking them up. There's a room with your name on it and a chart that includes all sorts of mental and physical issues arising from stress.

I can only see 2 choices: (a) walk away, at least temporarily, and let the dust settle between your irrational father, uncooperative brother, and a banking institution. Or: (b) apply for guardianship. But given the family dynamics, a judge would appoint an outside guardian. How it will get paid is a question for a Solomon to resolve.

I do think your constant support could work to your disadvantage. Your mother and father probably know they can rely on you to come through, regardless of the circumstances. So they, or at least your father, has no incentive to change. Why not exploit you if he can get away with it?

The next time he needs help, you may have to "bite your tongue" and tell him to call the bank.

You know, there are situations which are so far beyond your control that you have to recognize there's nothing more you can do, and even though it's the more painful and emotional choice, it is the wiser one.

If it's any consolation, I've had to threaten that a few times in order to get results. I'm sure I'm not alone.

But for today, try to put it all on the back burner, concentrate on your job to make sure you still have one, come home and do something you really enjoy, something really relaxing, and make it a respite night while you let your head clear and decide what to do.
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Oh man. I'd walk away from this. The bank has broad shoulders. If they accepted being POA, they must have someone on staff who deals with this kind of stuff. I'd tell your parents you were done and make sure they have the number of the bank officer who is going to pick them up from the hospital.
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I'm sorry if that sounds awful. But things are going to have to get worse, like a major hospitalization and Social services stepping in, for anything to change.
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and as far as your brother, I think you might be surprised; my parent's grandson, who'd been the same way and they by him, now that they're gone; surprise, he's working a regular job now
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I think Babalou's right - this situation is headed for disaster. I can easily see the bank notifying APS if your father needs another ER visit, or if it inspects the commercial building and sees the mess your brother's created - in that case probably the Health Department would be notified. From your description, I could even foresee the building being condemned.

The more I think about this, I think for your own protection and safety you need to get off this sinking Titanic and start protecting yourself so you're not blamed when the situation explodes. Perhaps your father selecting a bank to act as proxy is a good thing - they won't take any nonsense from him or your brother.
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GA, I think you may be right as far as the bank; almost wish my dad had not gotten me involved in his business but how would - or does - the bank know if dad goes to the ER? has the hospital been informed of the POA? doesn't sound like it
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Deb, you raise one of the issues that makes a bank a MPOA proxy an unworkable proposition. The father or family would have to notify the hospital when father went to a hospital that the bank holds the proxy and is the only entity authorized to make certain decisions. If it's not a life threatening matter, the issue might not arise, but if it is, decisions couldn't be made until the bank was contacted.

I can imagine the perplexed and confused look on medical personnel's faces when they learn that from a family member who brought the father in for treatment that he/she has no authority to make decisions because the bank holds that authority.

What would happen on a weekend or holiday is mere speculation, but if there was an emergency and a bank official couldn't be reached...well, you can guess that the outcome might not be a good one.

The more I think of it, I wonder if Jspy's father is just telling him this to "jerk his chain" and/or maneuver him into giving into the brother's irresponsible activity. I also wonder if he told the other brothers as well.
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You might want to contact the bank manager and ask, not if they have dad's MPOA, but if such a thing can be arranged and how they manage it. I'm sure the answer is no, but it might be good to know.

You dad sounds like a very foolish man. Only walking away will lead to a real solution.
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Jspylock: You ARE going to need some help SOMEWHERE. Phew!
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