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When my grandfather passed he left my mother an industrial bldg with 4 rental units that both parents ran a machine shop in. When 2 units became vacant my brother took over hoarding inside them. They tried to tell him to leave but he became aggressively agitated and believes using the buildings is his birth right. They changed the locks but then my father gave him a key. This hoarding is inherited from my father who thinks his son can do no wrong and enables him; however the brother is a dreamer and thinks using it to create his dreams in, will make him rich any day now. He is 62 and has been saying this his entire life. He lives off money they pay him for odd jobs at the units. My father; 88; is mostly house ridden on a walker except for short trips out to doctors; leaving my mother, 83; to handle all the finances and problems with the building that became vacant about 4 years ago when this started. They refuse to close the business so a second brother can have a job. The second brother refuses to take over the business and is getting paid from their personal money while they pay taxes and maintain it all while receiving no income from the business or rent. I have nothing to do with the rental or the business due to the bothers harassing me out of it all years ago.

My mother has macular degeneration and has lost 40lbs in 1.5 year which she refuses to continue with tests to find out why. I know she cannot handle the business they still own in 1 of the 4 rentals while handling all finances and caring for my father who wouldn't eat without her shopping and cooking for him. Every time I call my father tells me my mother needs help and can't do it anymore. He claims she is also forgetful. I know she cannot balance her accounts and chooses to have the businesses secretary help her; which I find insulting because she is trusting an outsider more than her own daughter. I've told my parents I can help but they will not give me or my husband POA in any way because my bothers would be upset and I refuse to pay bills for the vacant rentals and business that they are using. They know this is all wrong and up until last year said they were working on getting it resolved; but now as they have progressed in age and have given up trying. They refuse to talk about it anymore and only want to talk small talk as if this huge problem does not exist. My brothers are both abusing and taking advantage of my parents financially due to their age. I might add that in all these years I have been the one who has been the constant married for 38 years with 3 adult productive children who has been entertaining them with dinners while the two bothers did their own thing never even inviting them to their homes! It's true the first brother has nothing to offer since he lives in a townhome gifted to him that he also hoards in. Now they need care and I can hardly stand to go to their home from the upset of what is going on that is out of my control. Last week my mother needed assistance searching her email for an email I had sent her I asked her if she read. Turns out my brother (who uses my mothers computer weekly when he stops their to eat) had permanently deleted every email I ever sent her. She had emails in her trash bin from 2014 but not one from me! She has lost the ability to even realize what he is doing and is convinced he would not be dishonest. All he has to do is stop by once and week to eat and she is in her glory. All the while my father expects me to help her while the two son's take everything. I don't know if there is anything legally I can do to put a stop to my bothers taking advantage their elderly parents. They've done it for years but the difference now is my parents do not have the ability to stop them and are in complete denial at this point. Any suggestions on how to deal with this ongiong catastrophe is greatly appreciated.

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Jspylock: You ARE going to need some help SOMEWHERE. Phew!
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You might want to contact the bank manager and ask, not if they have dad's MPOA, but if such a thing can be arranged and how they manage it. I'm sure the answer is no, but it might be good to know.

You dad sounds like a very foolish man. Only walking away will lead to a real solution.
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Deb, you raise one of the issues that makes a bank a MPOA proxy an unworkable proposition. The father or family would have to notify the hospital when father went to a hospital that the bank holds the proxy and is the only entity authorized to make certain decisions. If it's not a life threatening matter, the issue might not arise, but if it is, decisions couldn't be made until the bank was contacted.

I can imagine the perplexed and confused look on medical personnel's faces when they learn that from a family member who brought the father in for treatment that he/she has no authority to make decisions because the bank holds that authority.

What would happen on a weekend or holiday is mere speculation, but if there was an emergency and a bank official couldn't be reached...well, you can guess that the outcome might not be a good one.

The more I think of it, I wonder if Jspy's father is just telling him this to "jerk his chain" and/or maneuver him into giving into the brother's irresponsible activity. I also wonder if he told the other brothers as well.
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GA, I think you may be right as far as the bank; almost wish my dad had not gotten me involved in his business but how would - or does - the bank know if dad goes to the ER? has the hospital been informed of the POA? doesn't sound like it
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I think Babalou's right - this situation is headed for disaster. I can easily see the bank notifying APS if your father needs another ER visit, or if it inspects the commercial building and sees the mess your brother's created - in that case probably the Health Department would be notified. From your description, I could even foresee the building being condemned.

The more I think about this, I think for your own protection and safety you need to get off this sinking Titanic and start protecting yourself so you're not blamed when the situation explodes. Perhaps your father selecting a bank to act as proxy is a good thing - they won't take any nonsense from him or your brother.
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and as far as your brother, I think you might be surprised; my parent's grandson, who'd been the same way and they by him, now that they're gone; surprise, he's working a regular job now
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I'm sorry if that sounds awful. But things are going to have to get worse, like a major hospitalization and Social services stepping in, for anything to change.
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Oh man. I'd walk away from this. The bank has broad shoulders. If they accepted being POA, they must have someone on staff who deals with this kind of stuff. I'd tell your parents you were done and make sure they have the number of the bank officer who is going to pick them up from the hospital.
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I find this new development so disturbing, frustrating, disappointing that I actually started crying as I read your last 2 posts. I honestly don't know how you can hold it all together at this point. I frankly would be ready to throw in the towel and walk away from the situation.

Between the brother and your father, it seems as though all your efforts to work out some kind of viable plan are resisted and defeated w/o even giving them a try.

There might be a saving grace though. Banks normally won't handle a trust without a sufficient income stream. As I recall from years ago, one bank charged 7% of an asset portfolio just to manage a trust. It will look to the assets to ensure that the commitment is going to justify its time. I'm sure it would do the same for POA responsibilities, if it would even consider being involved, and that's a big "if".

I don't know what a bank would charge to act as DPOA, but is certainly isn't going to do it for free. I also don't know whether or not a bank would want to review your father's assets to ensure there are sufficient funds to pay it, and pay it. it most certainly will! Your father doesn't seem to realize he's in a financial dilemma already and adding an additional cost is going to deplete what assets he has.

In addition, if he has raised the property management issue, I assume the bank would likely send someone to review the building before accepting any responsibility. When they see the condition it's in, it won't take long to make a negative decision and refuse to include any management of that white elephant.

As to an MPOA, that clearly reflects your father's irrational thinking. Does he think a bank manager is going to be available in the middle of the night to make medical decisions for him? But I'm guessing he still expects you to be involved when he needs assistance. However, and this is the key for you, you wouldn't have ANY standing in terms of significant decisions, depending on how thorough an MPOA is drafted. And that really ties your hands and binds you from providing care as might be needed.

I just can't imagine a bank accepting this responsibility.

However, at this point I think that you're headed for so much stress you're going to be the next hospital guest, and I don't mean just taking someone and picking them up. There's a room with your name on it and a chart that includes all sorts of mental and physical issues arising from stress.

I can only see 2 choices: (a) walk away, at least temporarily, and let the dust settle between your irrational father, uncooperative brother, and a banking institution. Or: (b) apply for guardianship. But given the family dynamics, a judge would appoint an outside guardian. How it will get paid is a question for a Solomon to resolve.

I do think your constant support could work to your disadvantage. Your mother and father probably know they can rely on you to come through, regardless of the circumstances. So they, or at least your father, has no incentive to change. Why not exploit you if he can get away with it?

The next time he needs help, you may have to "bite your tongue" and tell him to call the bank.

You know, there are situations which are so far beyond your control that you have to recognize there's nothing more you can do, and even though it's the more painful and emotional choice, it is the wiser one.

If it's any consolation, I've had to threaten that a few times in order to get results. I'm sure I'm not alone.

But for today, try to put it all on the back burner, concentrate on your job to make sure you still have one, come home and do something you really enjoy, something really relaxing, and make it a respite night while you let your head clear and decide what to do.
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After a trying weekend, getting my father home from the hospital and set up with medical supplies, getting my son to work with my difficult brother to get the lift chair back and in my parents house; taking them food and bringing home the soiled wash; I called this morning and finally asked my father what the plan was for POA. He informed me it was the Bank. I clarified it and said; you mean the bank is your POA for both finances and health; he said yes. I asked why when he has three kids and three grandkids all living within 5 minutes; they would have the bank make those decisions. His answer was because we (myself and the two brothers) do not get along. I think then the bank should do all these things I just spent my past week doing. Hard not to feel bitter. Any input on that?
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I already feel the burnout coming. Stressing over all that lies ahead.
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Call adult protective services. You WILL experience caregiving burnout.
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Well the latest is that I went to the house because Dad had a fever. Brother had been there Sunday, said and did nothing. My son stopped by and called me. I went Monday, left work to do so; to take him to the ER because at 88 a fever of 102 is not good. He hadn't been out, no flu; so I found him sitting in a Urine soaked chair. Got his fever down, cleaned up and put in bed because he wouldn't go to hospital. Next Morning, still had Fever, I insisted he go. Did get brother who does not work to take him only because I told my parents to get him since I do have to work. He was admitted. I went after work; 9pm; he did have a Urine infection. He also was kept in cardiac unit due to AFIB. It happened because he couldn't get out of the chair to get to the bathroom. I insisted we get a lift chair but my parents already own one that was my grandfathers. They gave it to Hoarding brother (he had a wife that had cancer and used it until she passed). He kept the chair. I texted him and said Dad needs the chair. I arranged for my son to get a truck and pick it up. Brother refuses to give it up; says he uses it. Tells mom and dad he is waiting for my son to come when it can work out. Tells my son he is not giving it up until he gets another chair. He is playing us all. He acts to them like it is my son's fault it was not brought over. Meanwhile I brought Dad home last night, brother had to go to choir practice after insisting my son should of left his job to do it at 11am. He knew darn well my son could not leave work and the truck would be a company truck he would need to borrow after work hours. Brother doesn't work. I texted both brothers and said, You two work it out and get the chair there, Dad needs it. Hoarding brother texted back I am bullying him! Other brother called mom and said to call her insurance and get a chair. Unbelievable! Yes I am in for Huge problems. Hardly slept last night over the stress. I told my parents we need to go buy a chair. None of us can deal with the brother. Dad says he's fine, doesn't need the chair. Anyway, hospital visit produced a scheduled 2 visits by social worker/nurse so I plan to be there and take advice from them. With all this happening my mother is now scared; realizing she could end up in that house alone. I had to drop Dad off and go get new prescriptions filled. Realized Mom is not really very with it. She couldn't find insurance cards and didn't eat dinner; only drank a boost all day. I ended up feeding her and never got home until bedtime. It is going to be a long, long haul. Because they have a dog; they will not leave the house. I really appreciate all your feedback. I see others asking questions and am unable to give the feedback but maybe as I go through all this I will learn enough to give help to others down the road. I will inquire about a Generic Care Specialist. As I will regain some of my parents trust I will find out about the POA. My mother wanted me to go to the business to learn to do the bills, taxes; etc...But I just can't subject myself to either brother who are both there. That is a bigger issue than figuring out my parents care needs. Today I go to the medical store and get supplies to keep him dry; then work.
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Yes, agreed..retain an attorney. He throws a tantrum because he has a disease. Geriatric Care Spec.-yes.
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Take legal advice that is best for you.
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One other great suggestion was rendered that could help keep SOME of the acrimony between parties at a minimum and yield progress. That is to find a Geriatric Care Specialist if such is available in your area. There is a cost but they are full of resources, know how to play good cop/bad cop to the get the best possible answers and care for your parents, aren't worried about what anyone but your parents think of them, know how to gain their trust, and will take the onus off your being the 'bad guy.' Their sole focus would be your parents' health and well-being (and they could totally set up the in home care you have sought for your folks.) Your brother(s) in denial may still be unwilling to accept an objective outside opinion but a professional should have much more clout with authorities to help convince them.
All of GardenArtist's points are spot on. It appears you care for your parents but cannot change or undo all the bad behavior and bad decisions. Therefore, press on with your efforts to see your parents cared for before there's a crisis that forces other knee jerk and possibly bad decisions. Sad to say this, but it can/will be a long process, not an immediate fix: getting the right health help, legal help, even emotional help for yourself, and just STARTING to clean up such a mess. Prayers for your continued health and sanity...
p.s. My advice: after clarifying POA and Trust issues, sell that building at whatever cost and get that money in a place that can only be legally accessed to pay for your parents' needs, not to support others.... Even at a loss, that could be useful taxwise and could certainly get rid of at least one, and maybe many issues!
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I agree but he would never listened to a social worker. He places himself above all. Very difficult to deal with and when confronted throws a tantrum.
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Hoarding is a disease. It will not go away without a social worker's intervention.
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Thank you for your thoughts and well wishes. I'm not expecting my parents to make any changes though. When they are gone is when it will really all explode. We'll see. I just need to stay sane and be able to sleep. Always so many worries in life isn't there though..............
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Jspy, I'm glad you've arrived a decision and plan of action. I think you're right about the building - brother will always find an excuse, someone else's fault and/or cause. Underground water can severely destabilize a building and cause massive damage. I think the building is a "goner" at this point.

Sometimes the hardest part of being an adult caregiver is recognizing when that point of no change, no return, and the turn around and pursue a different course of action time has arrived.

I wish you well on this next phase of caregiving.
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I spoke with my mother and brought up a few of GardenArtist points, such as them not allowing my any legal authority, the bother interfering with our relationship and them withholding details of the business. She said I was right; that's today. She then informed me of more damage to the building (something about water damage from underground water) which brother claims is from the township (I believe nothing he says). I previously did not think they should sell it. I now do; after GardenArtist's points, they shouldn't put money into it because brother is never going to leave it for them to rent nor us to rent should it get left in a trust. I'm going to push now for them to sell; even at a loss but if brother flips (a very real possiblity) they won't follow through. At least I got some things said. Probably won't change any. Brother has never had law issues other than no car insurance, No inspection's; disregard for the law in that way and don't think he ever filed taxes because he never had a W-2. Believe it or not; he is all involved in a church group which I find interesting because he does not live what he preaches. Of course they would have no reason to see his anger. He fools everyone talking like he is a big deal and people buy it because they have have no idea he lives off his parents. Next step to search for a recommended attorney for at least a consult on this.
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Although you do not need money, your parents will need it for future healthcare needs as your brother does not sound suitable. At least meet with an elder attorney. Maybe something could be set up for your brother (trust) with the remainder of the money from selling everything for your parents future needs. After you explain to attorney, they may have a win win plan to offer to your parents. Your parents are afraid. If your brother has ever been convicted of a felony, you may be able to have more say. At the least, he could not be a guardian
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And she left when I was eight
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Was not bitter.
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Jspylock, I was angry at first, I hope I was bitter. We were never close she left when I was right was never a mother like I am to my kids.

You are right we only were able to get back in contact when he left. He continued to financially abuse her until she was diagnosed with dementia. We have her in an excellent facility, he threatens and harasses us in every manner under the sun. Until last night...he is now incarcerated for the next 30 days.
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I only wish that if he were cut off he would find his way and work. He hasn't had a job since he was in his 20's. He is 62! It's the fact that he has taken over the Industrial Rental properties that is killing me. My grandfather intended for us all to benefit from the income and never touch the principal so it would go on for generations. It's just so upsetting to see the wastefulness of it all. I don't feel like a lawyer can do anything while my parents aren't willing to have him legally removed from the building and they won't join me if I get a Lawyer. They would ultimately side with him because I have a husband and children and he does not. I don't even care that they given him money but do I have any legal right as the other child to get him out of the Industrial building so it can be rented? Can I lawyer only help with that after my parents are declared incompetent?
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The previous reply sums it up beautifully. I am going through a similar situation, but not to your extent. I became emergency temporary guardian. My brother was like your brother for years; parents in denial and bailing him out. This continued after dad died and when mom needed memory care assistance, we were able to cut off the "aid to son" and get excellent care for mom. Interestingly, son is surviving on his own and working and he continues to make mom happy, but now has to work and can no longer manipulate her financially. Good luck
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Retain an attorney.
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No, my brother gets everything except for the silverware and the piano. My parents bought it for me when I was a teenager. I dont need her money. I am retired and husband retired. We arnt rich but have enough to live.
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MGGEJM36, I see how you get it. That is horrible. I just don't understand how a child can do that to a parent. At least your other brother was with you though. A 15 year estrangement is a long, long time. It sounds like only after bad brother took off with the car you began to communicate again with your mom. That is hard though because how do you not feel bitter that she let it all happen. I guess that is what I am feeling. I lost my mom to this mess and I feel bitter; she knew it was happening, she at times acknowledged it but she expects me to play along with her and pretend like it doesn't exist. She now sees it as not her problem because she won't be here to see the end result. I feel like both she and my father did not put their life in order and I will be left to deal with their mess. The real kicker is; I listened to my mother complain about her father these past 14 years because he left her the business and the buildings and a trust to handle. He left her rich and she has squandered it all on the brothers. Forget about me and my three kids. They figure we work so we are fine. It's the unfairness of it all that is so hard to accept.
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