Would I be held legally responsible if Mom refuses to do (or not do) what the doctor orders and something happens?

Can I just say for any Brits on here and I know there are some (because AC is better than the UK forums IMHO) that POA requires you to act in the persons BEST INTERESTS. It says nothing about happy content want it is all about their best interests. Firstly there aretwo types of Lasting Power of Attorney – Property and Financial Affairs, and Health and Welfare. If I call the person who makes the POA the donor it will make life simpler.

A donor can appoint just one attorney, or more than one attorney, to act as follows:
"jointly" – they must always make decisions together
"jointly and severally" – they have to make some decisions together and some individually

Noe all the advice I have had is to have joint and several because in the event one person dies, goes on holiday, or whatever then the whole process goes down the tube

They have to be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian before they become active

If you have POA over health and welfare then you can decide:
where the person is to live
whether a care home or a nursing home is best for them, and which one
whether the person can continue to live at home with help from social services
You can also decide whether the donor should
receive healthcare treatment
not receive a particular healthcare treatment
stop receiving a particular healthcare treatment
Some donors may have made an advanced directive while they have "mental capacity".
If the donor made a decision, in advance of losing their mental capacity, to refuse future medical treatment (known as an advance decision), you cannot override their decision unless the LPA was made later and specifies that you have that power.

A POA over finance cannot determine any of the above HOWEVER

they are allowed to make decisions on the donor's behalf. These include:
writing cheques and paying bills
selling or renting property
carrying out their trade or business
honouring any contractual obligations
conducting legal proceedings on their behalf
The POA is allowed to make gifts in the following circumstances:
on customary occasions to those related to or connected with the donor i.e. birthdays and Christmas
to any charity to which gifts had or might have been expected to be made
as long as the value of each gift is not unreasonable in the circumstances

It is quite critical therefore that the POAS (if they are different) do at least speak to each other!

aroman, so what is the deal with her saying her home is a "prison" if she doesn't want to go to assisted living; just because you won't get her what she wants, although guess I do understand, seems like hub's aunt lot the same way; when he wouldn't bring back her medicine; he does live just next door, so she finally - and even though he does, she hadn't done this in at least almost, if not over a year - walked down there and said she wanted her stuff back, so he did give it back to year but with a note, that, as I understand it, he made her sign, at least for her keys, saying she would ask his permission before she used them - think that would work - from the idea of protecting you? - would she do it - she says she's not going to use them, just wanted them back? but then she wants copies - in case it happens again? So is somebody else getting her what she wants? She's wanting me to get her the copies of these keys - without them knowing - her/his caregiver showed up Saturday with a copy of a paper saying she's supposed to start coming more - to take care of him? her? told her grandson, who is living with her, who was outside, while she was staying sitting in her car - with somebody with her - she's been bringing her granddaughter? - said her boss wanted her to find out what this was all about? - brought up my name as who had gotten this done - so they think I'm doing more than I am anyway - they evidently don't believe she's, like your mom, seemingly is going to find a way to get done what she wants, which she does want home health workers but if they brought her/them leaving, she'd probably do the same thing, think that's why this hasn't been done before; they though maybe the same one that took her keys might have done it; he did just get him a lift chair, but she said she did it, but she finally took the paper in but it happened to be while she was gone to the doctor - does your mom not even go there? but, evidently so, or else how would he have ordered anything? and that's how I found out she had gone to the doctor when she fell - I didn't think she had - and did tell him what had happened; she'd said she wasn't going to because she was afraid he would make her leave home, so maybe that's what's behind all this but she probably didn't know that; she probably didn't tell her since she had said before she wasn't there to help take care of her anyway, just him, but now....she doesn't like grandson being out after she wants to go to bed, which is early for him, but nothing like 5 pm, just a more normal, say, 10 pm, but just that that's early for him but he is trying to come in at what is still early for him, but, let's say, at least before midnight, but I think that concern about being legally responsible is still there...

debdaugter- Believe me, we would all like to see her move into AL- she would have the company she wants so badly, more to do and actually live her life. However, she will not even tolerate the mention of it. When they wanted her to rehab in a facility for just a few days to get her strength up, she threatened suicide. She refuses to leave her home or her dogs under ANY circumstances,
She has kicked out home health workers just for bringing it up. And no, her home is too small for someone to move in with her, beside the fact that even when we are somewhere with her she complains that others sleep too much, eat too much, make too much noise and she doesn't want people coming and going or having the tv on when she goes to bed (which is around 5 pm and wakes at 5 am.)

aroman, I can hear how difficult this is! You're doing a great job. In reading other folks' good advice, and your responses, I noticed your mom's statement that her home is 'prison.' Maybe that means you should start the process of having her move to AL. I'm not sure we're talking about her current happiness, per se, these sound more like coping mechanisms. She can't know she'd hate facility life, and she seemingly isn't having 'fun' how she is now.

aroman, do you think she might find she might have more of a life in AL? I know I, in many ways, wish my dad had gone ahead and sold his house and moved into the AL he was talking about doing; I feel, in many ways, he chose not to and stay in his house and have his grandson move in with him, which your mom's still living by herself, right? does she have anybody that could move in with her?

It's best to ask an attorney because state laws may differ as far as what the duties of a POA are, but I agree with angelrescue that generally a POA is for when the person who assigned it is unable to make decisions of certain types either because of health issues or dementia. Guardianship is stronger.

As to whether we are to keep them our elders safe or make them happy - that's an individual decision. Unless someone has dementia- and being eccentric not the same thing as having dementia - my personal belief is that they have a right to be as happy as they can while they still have some life left.

This does not carry into areas where they can harm others such as driving a car when they are no longer capable of doing so safely.However, if they are not hurting others and don't have dementia then I'd vote for happiness. That would be my preference. If my choices shortened my life then so be it. Others disagree. However, I've seen what taking away what these elders deem pleasures (even if younger adults disagree) can do to the elder. Some just give up and die.

The bottom line as far as the original question goes is check state law if you are worried about liability with being POA.

Take care, everyone. Great discussion!
Carol

No we have done the detox once. I was speaking of an assisted living facility

are you talking about an alcohol rehab type facility?

Thank you for all of your input. No she does not drive as she is blind, so unless someone takes her, she only has the option of getting a cab (which she has done). The OTC meds and alcohol do not interfere with her regular meds (we had the dr. adjust those so there wouldn't be a problem IF she got a hold of any) but apparently Bendadryl, which is in all of the otc sleep aids) worsens dementia in people over 65 so they don't want her taking that, and the alcohol....well I don't need to go into that one. The main thing with the alcohol is that she stops eating anything but breakfast and ends up with intestinal and gastric bleeds and malnutrition. But, she refuses to believe that there is anything wrong and most times doesn't remember she was sick, or wants to blame something else. I know that she has a right to live her life, but when those decisions have a high impact on the rest of us, then it has to change. I have plenty of doctors who have seen her who all agree I (and others like me) am in an extremely difficult place. It's a no win situation all around. On one hand, as long as she is not endangering others or falling, etc. they believe at this stage, let her do what she wants. On the other hand, if we step in and put her in a facility, she will probably starve herself or find a way to do herself harm there. (She is tired of living in a 'jail" (her home) without a life). It seems that no matter what I do it is a lose-lose situation.

Have her doctor put in writing that she is not following his protocol of care. This topic was recently discussed.

In my state a person can choose to make a POA effective immediately or at time of incapacity. What I was told wwas that it is best to document somewhere anything that is done on behalf of another person . This includes signing forms but also shopping, (save reciepts) pharmacy runs, what happens on a certain day....(a baasic caregiver note) phone logs, substance of general "caretaking" conversations....(reminded so and so to take meds. They responded "ok") ...you get the idea. The idea basically is to show care provided and also to cover oneself. "I told the doctor that she is sneaking food". Etc...cover yourself. A log book will "help" cover you if such charges ever come up.

Facilities can't even force residents to do things. So as a cargiver you can't either.

oh, the one who took them is saying her doctor has said she does have dementia

angelrescue, that's the way I'd always understood it; why this last time and actually most times, hub's aunt and uncle always refused to go to the hospital and in her case, even refused to have emt's called, what dealing with now, however, after the fall she had she feels she's doing better and the things that were taken away from her while she was recovering - like her meds - and his - her car keys and possibly her checks she's wanting them back, has written 2 notes to the one that took them saying she wants them back and to bring them - the last one being today for tonight - they've gone to get him a lift chair I believe - she has no POA, so the question is then are they under obligation to return those items...

I actually just asked my lawyer the same question because my mom is refusing to bathe and go to the doctor. He told me that my POA is not technically in effect until she ends up in the hospital or something and at that point cannot make a decision on her own while the doctor needs permission to do a procedure on her or send her to a nursing home. The lawyer told me only someone with Guardianship is required to make sure the parent is taking their meds, going to the doctor (even if it's by force - the emt sedating her to get her there), bathing, etc. So if she gets sick and ends up in the hospital, it will be her own fault, and then my POA would come into effect.

As difficult as it is to watch, everyone has a right to live their life the way they want to.

When I became POA for my parents, the lawyer and caseworker in his office explained that my job was to make decisions that would keep my parents safe....not to keep them happy. And yes, IF they are able to properly make decisions, they may make their own on various subjects....however, when it becomes obvious that they can no longer make proper and safe decisions in certain areas, then the POA must step in and take over. Assuming you have the Medical POW....and the necessary HIPPA releases that permit you to get info from her doctor, you should be able to communicate with her physician about her non compliance re: drinking and OTC meds. The physician can then go over the reasons again and if she continues to be non compliant, depending on the seriousness/importance of the meds that are interfering with alcohol and certain OTC meds, MD may either elect not to order the prescriptions, or elect to write a letter that says she is non compliant and therefore not able to make decisions about her medical care any longer. If she is non compliant, and no one can reason with her, then YES...you must not provide what she wants, and you would need to do what you can to be sure she does not get the alcohol or certain OTC drugs. If she drives, you can start the process to stop the driving; you could hire, with her money, caregivers into the home to supervise and monitor and drive. If it were really serious to her health and no one can reason with her, it may come down to having a neuro psych eval and see if she is diagnosed clearly with Alzheimer's or dementia and is unable to make responsible decisions. In Arizona, with two documentations from health officials that one is not able to make decisions, the full POA is in effect and the person cannot make any of their own decisions that are complex ones. If necessary, there could be a court hearing to declare guardianship, or, in my case, the lawyer helped each of my parents see that it was time to no longer live alone in the home, as they needed more supervision to keep them alive and healthy. It's a hard trek to walk, but just keep remembering that the job of the person with POA is to keep them SAFE....not necessarily happy or to ensure they get everything they want!

wondering if that's what going through with hub's aunt; son's taken away all of both her and uncle's meds, even their prescribed ones and doles them out to them; granted, they have both seemingly overdosed on them, so not really sure I blame him, but she wrote him a note - she does that because she won't remember to tell him otherwise - saying she wanted them back but not sure he will - now the question, not necessarily I, but grandson who lives with them and at least aunt wants to be their or at least her caregiver although don't believe she's done a formal POA, has, is he in the wrong in not acquiescing to such a request. Son has told grandson that doctor has said she has dementia.

Quietly Try to hide and lock away the products as soon as you can. Please innocence when she looks for them. Covered trash basket might work.
Can you share what the are??

The only thing you might be able to do is to try and stop the pharmacy from selling her the product but I fear that too would be a pointless venture as she seems to want to be able to get these meds and to get them by hook or by crook

lol yes they are. But, I found out that if she does go through someone else on her own, or takes a cab, nothing I can do. She still lives independently and I cannot control what she does without me. Thankfully, my responsibility is only to what I personally provide her with. Besides, she would never tell me if she did have someone else getting her things because she knows I would try to stop it. She already believes I have gone through her neighborhood and told all of her neighbors not to help her. (As if I had the time or inclination lol)

Absolutely aroman, if you don't procure them for her but someone else does the only thing I would suggest is find out who they are and tell them backed up in writing that they must not do this because it will kill her. Then if they continue to do so you may have the opportunity from barring them from access to her or her to them but I suspect she will just use another route. They are damned cunning these oldies.

I thank you for your response, and have since spoke with an advocate who advised me that although it probably would not happen, I actually could be charged with elder abuse if I provide her with alcohol or meds that the doctor has expressly forbidden her to take. If she gets someone else to take her and gets them on her own, then no, I can't stop her. It is difficult as she claims I don't love her or take care of her because she is not getting her way.

Sounds like your Mom can still think clearly for herself even with mild dementia. Thus, she has to take full responsibility for her own actions.

My parents were also very stubborn and had age decline memory issues being in their 90's. I didn't like some of their choices, like still living in a house with a lot of stairs, so anytime they fell on the stairs, well it was their choice to stay in that house. I would just shrug my shoulders and say "and why are you still living in this house????"