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Is it legal for a Nursing Faciity Administrator to just dump someone to a hospital because a patient with Alzheimers refuses to be their doormat?


I have done my nursing clinicals in a Nursing Facility and let me just say, most people working there are not compassionate with the patients and all. I've witnessed first hand how the elderly are treated and it is not good. So nasty and disrespectful. Most are just there for a paycheck and that is as far as it goes.


I've also observed while visiting my LO and I see the same thing all over.


To make a long story short, I had a LO in a Memory Care Assisted Living that fell victim to one of these clowns. The administrator at that.


She felt like she could just treat him like a doormat, I guess bc he as Alzh. Nevertheless, he is extremely intelligent and he expects the same respect from a person as I am sure the admin does. Anyway, after he would not tolerate her being nasty to him, she dumps him at the hospital?


Is this legal? I see a very sorry broken system. Now, I see exactly why there are so much bad things that go on in these facilities. It is because they are not monitored and they do not go by any policies.

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My xMIL has been in 3 different AL - now in Memory Care - in the last 5 years. The weakest link in the chain are the aides, CNAs, that are there for a paycheck.
My xMIL’s weekends are the roughest because of the people who are often ‘contract’ employees. When I ask for a name, over the phone, and they say they’re a contract employee and don’t know my xMIL, I know now that means (in most cases) they don’t care. They’re going to sit behind the desk as much as possible until their time is up.
Before Coronavirus, when I was inside, almost everyday, I’d see this constantly. And I take names and file complaints
There’s no reason to have 2 CNAs sitting at meal time glancing at the TV or their phones with 20 residents who can’t cut up their meat, so they don’t even try to eat it
(the kitchen got a complaint that time too)

Amazingly there’s no virus in the facility...yet. But if it happens, it’s going to be that weakest link in the chain that brings it in (people who don’t care and just want that paycheck)
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haileybug May 22, 2020
Kitty1 Thank you for responding. So sorry that you MIL went through that. Did you have your MIL moved or did the facilities?

When you complained, who did you complain to and did they do anything about it? Yes, I know what you mean about the CNA's.

My BIL encounters were mostly with the administrators for some reason. The thing is, out of the 3 that's called, they were very angry and nasty.

I'm like I see the problem.
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Someone on here mentioned I should report the situation to the State, in which I had already did.

I was told that the facililty was supposed to give BIL 30 day notice, in which they did not do. So, what is the state doing about that? Probably nothing.

Just received a letter that they investigated the incident and for me to see the enclosed investigation report. There was no investigation report enclosed.

See, what we are dealing with. A bunch of clowns.
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Nemophilist Thank you so much for responding. Thank you for being honest about the medical system and I do agree 100 percent with you. That it is about a business. I guess that is the hardest part for me to accept and understand. I on the other hand, think so much about love, care and compassionate for the people. Those times are in the past.

It reminds me when I was doing my nursing clinicals in a NH and I was feeding a resident who could not feed themselves. I watched how a nurse was about to choke someone to death trying to rush and shove food down a resident's mouth. It hurt me so bad. Then the CNA told me I could not take my time to hurry up.

Yes, you are so right. It is just a business. So sad.

Thank you for your kind words. It means so much to me.
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I agree that the system is broken, but I also believe that all facilities are not created equal. If you’re able to find another memory care unit where they are better equipped and trained to manage your BIL’s high-energy and Alzheimer’s, it will make such a difference for all of you. My suggestion is that you don’t waste any more energy on dealing with the administrator or the facility and work on finding one that is a better fit. I don’t know if that’s possible, but wishing you the best. Good luck.
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haileybug May 19, 2020
Nemophilist Thank you so much for your encouragement. I have not said one word to the administrator or any other staff members. After what was done, my husband and I realized they were a waste of our time.

I just have a hard time believing that these facilities get away with doing such things.

Really, why be in the business if you can not do any better? Thank you.
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So people do not have logical reasoning. I can put on here what happened with my BIL and some will still put him at fault.
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If you are thinking of hiring an attorney, can’t you use that money to pay for a 1:1 caregiver for your BIL when he gets placed (again)? Hiring an attorney will be a waste of time and your money.

You have to be able to look at this unfortunate situation realistically. Who is the common denominator is in all the facilities your BIL was in and managed to get discharged from? BIL. Why is he difficult to manage? Surely you have an idea. Can you arrange a meeting with your husband and the care team and try to work with them to provide care to BIL and not be adversarial?

I understand your frustration in that your husband is ultimately responsible for quelling any disaster his brother stirs up.
But any administrator must take into consideration that having your BIL poses a REAL risk to other residents and staff there. What is his diagnosis on this hospital admission? He must have an acute illness or a psych issue to be admitted to an acute center in this pandemic.

Maybe the solution is for you & your husband to take BIL in, maybe in a MIL apartment set up or something like that. You & hubby can supervise him and if BIL is eligible he can get IHS thru Medicaid. Your husband after triple bypass surgery usually achieve a better level of function activity wise because his heart muscle was re-vascularized & recover well. I believe husband may have a lifting restriction due to sternal surgery but that too improves after the sternum heals. Would there be physical demands placed on your family if BIL moved in? Can BIL take care of his own hygiene with direction? What physical needs does he have? No one is going to care for him up to your standards so why not take him in?

Yes of course everyone should be treated with respect. Unless you witnessed the conflict between admin & BIL you can’t really say what happened. And also there is BIL’s long and no doubt well documented history of non compliance, verbal (& maybe physical) assaults on the staff, etc.
As someone said, it’s not a perfect world as much as you wish for one.

You do get an “A” for effort in trying to help your husband get BIL placed
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haileybug May 18, 2020
Shane1124 Thank you so much for your response. I will not be spending any money out of my pocket for an attorney. (Legal Aide is free)

Before my BIL got to this point with dementia/alzh, he was really very very intelligent. From what my husband and I observe when we go into the MC unit to visit is … All the other residents are just mainly sitting in one place staring at the wall. My BIL on the other hand, is active. He likes to go all over the place in his wheelchair (he can walk some) talking, laughing and joking all the time. Maybe, just maybe, that is part the facilities don't like.

However, in this MC assisted living facility, he was only there for 30 days. My husband and I had visited him on a regular basis and we were never aware of any issues. Everyone just smiled in our face and acted like all was good. Until my husband got the call on Christmas Eve from the admin that she was discharging BIL to ER phys and she would not take him back.

We later learned that the admin had actually agitated him by actually trying to argue with him along with a demanding approach. Also, we were told they had him so drugged up to keep him still while he was in rehab recovering from surgery and that this facility was trying to take him off the meds. Anyway, this is what prompted the discharge to hospital with no means of returning. She did not know how to handle/fix what she messed up. Therefore, to clean her hands, she just dumps him to let them figure things out.

My husband has more health issues besides triple heart bypass that will not permit him to take care of his brother. That is what bothers us the most. We would rather bring him home and take care of him ourselves.

We are not at the facilities so we can only go with what we are told. In the past, an ombudsman investigated and she did admit that staff was being very disrespectful to him and not giving him his meds. Thank you for responding.
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mstrbill Thank you very much. Great advice. I think I will seek an attorney,
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mstrbill I promise you, that my husband and I are/have been and continue to be very NICE to the staff at these facilities.

To answer your question (briefly), the Admin thought is was fine to argue with our lo who has Alzheimers about his perception of a situation. On top of that, she was very demanding with him, therefore, agitating him.

Henceforth, dumping at the hospital and refusing to accept him back.

SOMETHING SHE DID WRONG. Thanks
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mstrbill May 17, 2020
OK, fine, I'll take you at your word. If I were in your shoes I'd consult an a good attorney to see if any action can be taken. I'd be very upset as well. I really don't know what your best course of action is now but I'd think about at least getting the advice of an attorney or 2.
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worriedinCali Also, you mentioned that I say the staff are not doing their job correctly. I am not the only one who says it, the Ombudsmans says it as well.
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worriedinCali Why are you such a bully? Why do you have a problem with me posting the same thing since 2017? Is it hurting you?

Because I refuse to give up and lose hope for a situation, you think something is wrong with me.

If posting my links will make you feel good about yourself, then bless your heart GO AHEAD.
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My opinion here😊

Is he paying for this AL/memory care privately? Then its his residence. He is paying rent and I would want a good reason why the Adminstrator saw fit to send him to the hospital. If you have POA or on his HIPPA paperwork, then you should have been called before he was sent. Unless Dad is violent, the facility should know how to handle him.

When Mom was in an AL, the Administrator did not get that involved with the residents to treat them disrespectfully. The care was done by the CNAs. The RN was over them and handled reordering meds and paperwork. The RN usually determines if resident gets sent to the hospital or an LPN. (In Moms facility a Medtech was able to make that decision)

Since the Ombudsman was of no use, call the State department that does the inspection of the facility.

I admit that those working with Dementia/ Alz and the elderly need to have compassion. In the two facilities Mom was in I saw nothing but patience. CNAs, Nurses and LPNs get burned out too. There is alot of stuff they put up with. Understaffing for one thing.
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worriedinCali May 17, 2020
Joann its her BIL not her dad and it’s his residence no matter how the bill is paid. I really curious what you meant by “Is he private paying for memory care? Then it’s his residence”.

This is ongoing since 2017. Every facility he’s been in and every administrator has been a problem. She’s been told repeatedly who to call and it’s always the same story-they didn’t do anything or they didn’t do their job correctly.
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WorriedinCali

No, I did not make a mistake by coming under a different username. I have nothing to hide.

I had forgotten that I had made an account a while back and just realized I had an old account. Henceforth, I had LEFT THE FORUM for a while, unlike you.

But you called me a troll. Carry on …….
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worriedinCali May 17, 2020
You’ve already established yourself as one. Nice try 👹
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WorriedinCali

I was just waiting for you to comment with your smart remark.

You call me a TROLL? How long/often are you on this forum? I never see you go away.
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worriedinCali May 17, 2020
I’m not the one using multiple names and I haven’t been posting the same thing repeatedly since 2017. Do I need to link all your posts again for those who have forgotten? You have been trolling since 2017.
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Wait, I'm confused now. Are Haileybug and sunshine the same people?

Anyway, what cwillie writes is the cold hard truth. I've realized you may do so much better with the NH (and people in general) by being compliant, agreeable, respectful, cordial than by being demanding, accusatory and disrespectful. I'm not in any way implying that original poster behaved in that fashion, but I do get the feeling (from my own experiences and from this forum) that the NH can and will "get rid" of the problem patient and family fairly easily without much in the way of consequence.
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worriedinCali May 17, 2020
Yes She made a common mistake and replied to cwillie under the wrong ID 🤪
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Hailey I have been following your posts from the beginning and while I agree that in a perfect world everyone should be treated as respected individuals in the real world facilities are institutions with many people whose needs all differ, and catering to each of them the way you seem to expect is impossible. The fact he has Alzheimer's doesn't mean his outbursts when his needs aren't met on his timetable are acceptable - the front line people who look after him just want to put in a days work without having to fear verbal and/or physical abuse. You have written again and again that he is a perfect gentleman when he is with you, but a facility can't offer 24/7 one on one care and I don't see you offering to care for him in your home. Problem residents (and those with problem families) are going to get moved on in any way open to the facility because there are dozens of people easier to deal with waiting at the door, that's a fact of life.
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haileybug May 17, 2020
cwillie Thank you so much for your response, however, some how you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying.

I never once mentioned that I think someone should be catered too. I know the demands in a nursing facility can be high. The point I have tried to make is, No one should be disrespected. No one.

Let me ask you a question. If you were in a nursing facility and the admin/staff treated you like you were just a number and disrespectful, what would you do?

You mentioned that I said he was a perfect gentleman. How about all the nurses and doctors in the hospital say the same. They love him.

As far as me not offering him care in my home, If I could I would do it in a heart beat. My husband had a triple bypass heart surgery and I have a someone else in the home I have to care for.

Problem residents and problem families? I don't know what you are trying to insinuate. Yes, I am so sure they would love to have residents like the ones I have seen. The ones that can only sit and stare at the walls? (I don't mean anything by this)
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Have you contacted your state's ombudsman for the facility? They are there to address your concerns.
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sunshine45 May 17, 2020
mstrbill

Thanks for responding. Yes, I called the ombudsman and he couldn't care less. You know as long as some people can sit on a phone a cover things up, less work for them.

Thank you for your smart response though.
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I’m sorry for your experiences. There are terrible workers and facilities for sure. There are also very good ones. I remain grateful for the kind and compassionate care my mother received in a good place, for the workers who often told us they didn’t want to be anywhere else, that they considered nursing home work to be their life’s calling. One of life’s biggest mistakes is to lump all of anything into one category
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sunshine45 May 17, 2020
Daughterof1930 Thanks for your response. You are right, I am sure there are some very good facilities out there somewhere. The ones I have dealt with are not.

It is such a blessing for you and your mom to have been able to find a good one.
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haileybug, I'm sorry for your LOs bad treatment. It should never happen to him or anyone. But you can't legislate compassion into people. People are broken, not the system.
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sunshine45 May 17, 2020
Geaton777 I agree, you can not legislate compassion into people. However, what I am saying is, You can report these peoples actions, however, they do nothing about it. They do not care. Thus, that is why the system is broken.

These facilities do not have to adhere to there own policies.
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If NH goes through proper state protocol then yes it would be legal
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sunshine45 May 17, 2020
shad250 Is talking treating an Alzheimeirs patient like they are nothing, proper state protocol?
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