Is anyone else fed up that the law is on the elder's side and not your side?

Tompkins County, upstate New York, has very few facilities. My brother lives there and we found out the hard way, when we thought it would be easy to move our mother. Nope, didn't happen that way. Rural areas around the country are in similar situations. So I relate to your struggle.

This is a very real problem with people who choose to live in filth and be filthy while they still maintain a level of competency that will indicate to professionals that they are of sound mind, aware of what they are doing, and accept it as a way of life. Have seen it first hand with the same type of situation. After talking with the 2 relatives of mine, APS told me - while the living situation is not a way that you/I want to live, this person knows it is not clean, knows they don't bathe regularly, and is ok with that. APS even checked the frig and noted there was only a few lunch meats or items, however it indicated they know they need to eat - they just choose to eat crap instead of cooking a real meal.

There probably is some sort of mandatory reporting, but your inclusion of the words 'self neglect' sums up what will be reported after talking w/the patient. If you are of reasonable mind, you do have the right to take a bath when you want, eat crap if you want, and live in an unclean house.

You would get more help with the hoarding if she was renting an apt or house because you could tell the landlord she is destroying the house. If house belongs to her, that's a moot point. Go ahead and call APS just to see what they can do to help you. It can't hurt to let them evaluate. They may be able to guide you to a service to clean it out or make mom think outsiders are going to get involved if she doesn't clean up, especially if there is a bug or rodent problem with the hoard.

You might consider reading the Obama care protocol. You can't get help because that bit of health CARE overrides any help for the elderly, disabled, chronically ill. We are deemed useless, worthless, a drain on society, disposable. This is part of the 'redistributing the wealth' of the socialist program. Read your history. It repeats itself. I am sorry to tell you that if you didn't know but it IS the truth. Many people on here give good advice for 6 years ago. This is a whole new era & it is not elderly friendly. Be careful what you wish for. And do the research for current info before making decisions. In my area lawyers won't touch this issue.

Hi , I live in western New York as well. I'm going thru the same thing with my father who is 80 and is a alcoholic and falls all the time . They sent him home with a broken finger with no splint etc. I'm tired of the hospitals they do nothing to help you or help the patient. Dont believe them if she falls. They still wont do anything. They say as long as they have capacity and can choose they cant force them.. nys has to have worst elder care laws I've ever heard of.

It's the same in PA My dad at age 99 lived in a dirty and cluttered apt with insects all over, food left out, the smell was terrible, he smelled pissy all the time and refused to take a bath. If I took him food shopping I had to put my head out the window to breathe and I had to air my car out. I called the State agency to report elder self-abuse; the came they saw and they said "I've seen worse", they saw no problem and they left. This was before he fell in his apt and was there for 2 days (several falls before this) things fell on top of him so rescue had to look for him. While he was in the hospital the family cleaned his place, he blamed me since I was the care giver so he pulled a knife (not the first time). It tough enough dealing with his constent demands and behavior of lies and manipulation which really took a toll on me, dealing with State agencies didn't help! I understand they want to provide some protection for the elderly but it seems that it's unreasonable sometimes. I just can't wrap my brain around the idea of a 99 year old with dementia calling all the shots and you have to help unless you have them ruled incompetent, a POA is meaningless. They can spend the money at will, buy cars or whatever while he's living in Hud housing. He'll buy a car but won't go for hearing aids that he really needs.

Texas isn't any better. My 87 year old father fell a few weeks ago and smacked his head on concrete, resulting in a concussion. He already has dementia but the fall has made it much worse. He refused to consider going to the doctor for 5 days, and when he did, it was just to go to a dermatology appt. Fortunately, at the appt, he was acting strangely and with the gash on his head, they sent him to the hospital for a couple of days and then to rehab, which was supposed to be for 2 weeks.

While he was in the hospital, I was advised that he should never be driving again, and would need someone with him 24/7 going forward. None of this advise was put in writing!

2 days into rehab, he decided that he wanted to go home, against doctor's orders. I was expected to drop everything and go there to pick him up at 9pm. I asked if they could give him a sedative since he was clearly agitated and was told that they couldn't make him take any medicine. If I didn't pick him up, he was going to be leaving and walking 4+ miles to get home.

Of course, I did go pick him up and took him home and any discussion about his driving or hiring some help was promptly ignored. He is still doing exactly what he wants to do and I am furious that the medical professionals did nothing to help, especially since they were the ones that told me there need to be some restrictions. I'm supposed to follow their advise but have no record of their advise to use to get his driver's license revoked or to take to a lawyer to work on making some arrangements.

If she is competent I don't care what state she lives in she has the right to spend her money the way she wants, and live the way she wants...I say let her enjoy herself. If she enjoys gambling, let her gamble. If she spends it all, that's her business. You are lucky you still have your mom and she is still with it. My mom died of end-stage Alzheimer's (actually cancer got her, not the Alzheimer's) requiring a feeding tube and she could not longer talk or react to the environment at age 90..it was very hard work keeping her going.

If her house is dirty, you can encourage her to hiring a cleaning service or you can help her clean up. Alternatively you *CAN* move in with her, or have her live WITH you so you can keep an eye on her. Maybe she gambles because she is lonely. If I were her age and still with it I'd be causing all kinds of trouble and get away with it LOL

Elaine1962, you’ve been given some very spot-on suggestions, esp from Lea, Rovana & NYDIL. But all the suggestions folks on AC and options that elder law atty your planning on seeing this week gives you, won’t matter unless YOU STOP ENABLING her.

That clearing snow for her, picking her up from the ER, shopping & running errands, whatever’s are all enabling her. STOP ENABLING!

How you describe her, well.... she’s an addict with mental health issues.
Gambling is an addiction.
Yeah it’s not like having kid on meth who is doing their dammdest Jesse Pinkman impersonation; or slumped over with a needle in their arm like in Trainspotting; or raging alcoholic like in Save the Tiger. Those are in your face addictions. Gambling is way more subtle. It’s the ostensibly sweet lil widow playing slots, but she is actually a honey badger.

Mom needs out of that house & into a regulated environment for her own health, safety & security. She’s 95, things are not gonna get better.
Shes one fall from a crisis and full out panic situation for you all. Although that might just be the best thing cause you do NOT pick her up and let discharge planner find her a facility & if need be she becomes a ward of the state.

I’d really highly suggest that you need to yourself go to a Gambling Anonymous family counseling. If your state has casinos, state has some sort of free resources for gambling addictions & these include family. The casinos have to put funds into the programs in order to be licensed.

Very simple. Refuse to remove her from the hospital. Call 911 and state that once again she has shortness of breath and this time add that she has chest pain. They will have to keep her for at least a day, when the hospital says she can go home refuse to take her due to the extreme danger to her health. Let the hospital place her. No one can make you take responsibility.

Unfortunately ,that is the law, just went through all this in Pennsylvania. Two days before my sister-in-law passed away I was allowed to take over as POA, due to the fact she could no longer comprehend or communicate. So sorry, but they do have their rights . We are helpless.

Rovana, no mice or rodents that I know of. She has running water and plumbing. She has heat. She has air conditioning in the summer. My mother last year got her home owners insurance to pay for a new garage door and a new roof. Her insurance paid for it all because she said it happened in a wind storm.

Does anybody have suggestions to ask the elder lawyer? I’m compiling my questions and I don’t want to forget anything. I would welcome suggestions or questions to ask the lawyer. I’m calling to make an appointment. Hopefully I can get in this week. Thank you!!

Also, my Mother DOES NOT drive anymore. I took her 20 year old car to the junkyard 3 years ago. I just wanted to let everyone know she does not drive because some people have made comments about her driving. I’m so glad I never had that battle with her. The car died and I had to take it to the junk yard. She gambled all her money away so she couldn’t buy a new one. She never talks about driving anymore. Thank goodness!! She takes call a bus which is 3.00 each way to the bank and the grocery store.

Thank you Surprise and Alvadeer for your responses. I really appreciate your answers. My son and I went over to her house to shovel and she had a lot of snow in her driveway. There was a guy walking his dog and he told me to call the village to come home plow the end of her driveway. It was way too deep at the end. He gave me the number to call and said it is an emergency because my mother is 95 years old and an ambulance wouldn’t be able to get through at all. So my son and I shoveled most of the driveway and I called the village for the end. It’s Sunday and I’m still waiting to see if they transferred the message. These are things I need to tell the elder lawyer. She sleeps all day and is up all night. She can’t walk in the dining room to see if it needs to be plowed because of all the clutter. But if I don’t call someone to do the driveway and she needed help, they couldn’t get up the driveway. Would I be held liable if I didn’t get her driveway done? These are questions I am going to ask the lawyer. I’m calling tomorrow to set up an appointment. She called me last night at 11pm and said you don’t need to come over Sunday (today) because I have diarrhea and I will be sleeping. She sleeps a lot lately. So I didn’t go inside the house. We just shoveled the driveway except for the end.

Elaine, You don't have to go no contact! Talking on the phone and getting e mail and snail mail are both contacts. But you don't want to be her grocery delivery person and you don't want to enter her house except to take photos on your phone. When I began talking with an attorney about my mthr, he had a hard time understanding how I would not want to be helping anymore. This is common among people who have good relationships with their parents. You need to stress that she is verbally abusing you and that she is like an alcoholic with her protective secrets and manipulating people's emotions. And like an alcoholic, there is no way to help her until she hits bottom. And that's what you want to do, to "allow her to live on her own," as the hospital says she has the right, but free of your interference, and if she fails, it's on her and not you. The question for the attorney is how do you legally accomplish that without liability for her failure?

Elaine, this has to be so very difficult for you. But one thing you have to recognize is that Rovana's responses to you carry the short and not - so - sweet truth. The Social Worker and all others are not at fault. The system is what it is and the system makes the best decisions it can; it is anything but an exact science when the law can intervene and when it cannot.
You have two things here that will prevent intervention of the law and social services.
1. Mom is still not adjudged incompetent. She is in charge of her own decisions in life until that happens. Hoarding is yes, a mental illness, but no, not against the law.
2. The law cannot act to intervene in the life of a competent person. they are allowed to choose when and whether to shower, how much to clutter their homes with.
Now there are times when the law CAN intervene and that is when someone is living in a situation that represents a health danger to themselves or others. Animal feces, in fact would change this whole situation. Even human feces would as some hoarders will not even part with their own soiled diapers. So there must be a health hazard. Mold might even work. Floor boards falling in. That sort of thing. If I sound like someone who once watched Hoarders, I am.
But there has to be a direct and emergent (as in this is an emergency) threat to life or limb of self or others.
You may have to move "away from this mess" for your own sanity. You yourself know that this WILL at some point come to a head with some catastrophe. At that point I would caution you to watch what you wish for. Guardianship or POA over your Mom will be almost useless unless she is locked into memory care, and she is competent so that will not happen. If guardianship is needed I would advise that you let the state be the battleground, and let them take over; this mess could just kill you, and leave your Mom even more helpless and in the same condition. Hoping you will keep us posted. Wishing you every good luck and am so sorry for all you are going through.

Rovana, yes I am calling the elder lawyer on Monday with all my questions. I just wrote down yours regarding abandonment. Perhaps she doesn’t want to live anymore. I know she is depressed and gets like this every winter because she can’t get out often because of the cold and snow here in New York. Thank goodness she doesn’t drive anymore. Her car died 3 years ago and I took it to the junk yard. She didn’t have any money to buy a new one and I told her I wasn’t co-signing for one. So luckily she has no car and isn’t getting another one so I don’t have to worry about her driving and killing someone out on the road.

Thank you sendhelp for your comments. Katsmihur, I’m so sorry you are going through this with your Mother.

Elaine,
Fed up and still in shock. Because aren't we on the side of the elder, getting them the best care, for their benefit? And, they come against us. Hey Mom, I am on your side! Hey hubs, I am on your side. Just how does it get all twisted up, a legal liability, and a battle?

So sorry you are going through this.

Oh, Elaine! I’m sooo sorry. How infuriating to have to explain the back story to everyone and then NOT really be heard. I get it. My tears came out, almost uncontrollably, as the social worker and nurse actually listened to MY back story about Mom. They spoke to neuro who ordered psych eval and a couple extra days in hospital, coming to a mild NCD diagnosis.

Mom’s neighbor reports Mom driving - probably bought new key fob from dealer (‘cause we have the two original sets of car keys).

But since hospital, neurologist and psychologist didn’t complete mandated paperwork for the state, there’s no way to enforce her taking the driver eval/test via the scripts given her at discharge. State doesn’t know her new diagnosis.

I’m sick with how this is going . . . .

Smoke detectors and now carbon monoxide detectors are required by law.
Call the fire department for an inspection.
They are mandated reporters.

There are AL facilities that have group bus rides to the casinos.
Maybe she could get excited about that?

I promise to let everyone know what happens after I talk her doctor and an elder lawyer. We have elder lawyers right down the road from me. Don’t worry about me. I’m tough and I will get through this. I won’t do anything stupid, irrational, or impulsive!!!

Elaine,

Your mother is severely mentally ill. The contact you do have with her is toxic. She groomed you to be the way you are with her. The anguish she puts you through is abundantly clear!

Her not answering the phone is manipulation to get you coming in person. As long as you are calling her from your house or cell phone, you will have a telephone record of attempting to reach out.

You can call the non-emergency number of the police to do a welfare check on her. Call enough times, and the police may be your allies in forcing something to happen.

Call APS and leave your name. Tell them you can no longer check on her because she is verbally abusive and her home is a death trap. And do not let her drag your son into this.

And the next time she lands in the hospital, tell the social worker or whoever is calling you that discharge to home is unsafe, that you cannot help her, that she is verbally abusive to you, and that her home is a death trap. Let the hospital deal with her. And perhaps, when she realizes that you are not coming to get her, she will answer her phone.

Needhelpwithmom, the problem is she won’t let ANYONE in her house except me. I should have caused a ruckus at the hospital and pushed all of my mothers buttons so they could see how she acts towards me. When we were both talking to the social worker and I disagreed with something she had said she turned to me and softly said “you make me sick”. She said this all the time to my father. She has mental illness. But even mental illness doesn’t mean somebody is incompetent.

Good luck! I will say a prayer and send good thoughts. You’re very welcome, Elaine.

Thank you lealonnie, Needhelpwithmom, everyone!!! Thank you so much!! My fear is calling APS and having them investigate ME!!!! That is my fear. I am sending a note to her doctor through her portal today and I am making an appointment on Monday to talk to an elder lawyer. But I sincerely appreciate every single one of you!!! Every one of you has sound advice and great suggestions. OMG I needed to vent so bad!!! Thank you all for listening to me!!!! All of you are truly appreciated!!!

Elaine, I understand you not wanting to go 'no contact'. I wouldn't want to do that either, if I were in your shoes. It's not about going 'no contact' really, but about not rescuing the woman from all of her issues. Can you tell her to call you at a certain time every day to check in? Or, can you call her at a certain time every day to check in? Even though she doesn't answer the phone normally, could something be arranged where she would agree to the once a day check in?
The problem here is that YOUR life is being ruined in the process of mother 'living her own life.' What would it take for YOU to feel better here and to not make statements like 'sometimes I wish I would die before her.'?
THAT is what's important here. Your mother is 95.......her days are numbered no matter what, you know? You can't save her from herself, so decide what you will and won't do, like the daily phone check in's and stuff. Maybe bring her some food once a week or something like that. What's the minimum you can do to where you feel useful but that it's not killing you?

What about hiring someone to do a daily check in? To see if/what she needs. Then you would KNOW that she is okay and not laying on the floor dying! That's something to consider also.

Think about that. Again, mom is 95. This situation won't go on forever. Don't come out of this completely wrecked. Then two lives will be lost. Sending you a big hug

Needhelpwithmom, my mother doesn’t say it but I think she is afraid of dying.

Needhelpwithmom you have been very helpful!! I appreciate everyone’s answer. I just feel like I can’t live with myself if I go no contact. I wouldn’t know if she were alive or dead. It sounds good on paper but even when I have backed off seeing her to 3 days a week it is constantly on my mind. Wondering and worrying on the days I don’t see her. Most of the time she is depressed and doesn’t want to get out of bed. She told the social worker this at the hospital.

Frustrating and downright abuse to us adult children! I keep fantasizing that I can sue my mom for 1) the money I spent last year to help her come home the first time around and 2) for the anguish and physical distress she's caused me the rest of the year.

My mom gets discharged today after round #2 in hospital/LTC. I'm nowhere near the scene this time around . Have no idea if utilities are on - or house hasn't been broken into this whole time she was laid up. The caregiver she hires (under the table) will be there to meet with her when she gets home.

The only thing I can say at this point - it's her problem, not mine. I gave up. (sort of). But I' steering clear of my mom as much as I can now. I've got to get back to my life anyway.