Her POA says any and all banking. But say her IRA is not included. I can’t even hire an attorney to update her documents as she now has dementia. Help!
Banks and financial institutions want to use their own POA forms, that's all. They like to be a PITA about it, but it isn't all that big a deal. I had to fill out the paperwork for my parents' bank and for Charles Schwab, and while it took a week or two for them to process it all, they were able to do it.
As far as IRAs go, you can't put an IRA in a trust, but you can certainly direct the investments in it. Of course, I'm the trustee for my mother, not merely a POA, so that might be the difference. A trustee has more powers in terms of financial issues than a POA, I believe.
It'd be worth it to buy an hour of a trust and estate attorney's time to get all this straightened out. Don't assume you can't do anything because your mom has dementia.
While some banks are PITAs about using their own POAs, I've been able to do everything at the CU and the bank mom used (redirected her SS to CU and closed the bank acct, to make my life simpler!) with the DPOA done back in 2006 (used it around 2014-15) and had no letters or anything mentioning her cognitive issues. I did have her with me both times, but she said NOTHING, just stood next to me rifling through her wallet and purse. The IRA is a different animal. That will require going through their rules.
I don’t know if this will work in your situation, but try talking to someone else. Call the bank’s customer service number and see if they say the same thing. I went through this last year with one of my mom’s banks—I assumed that since they held trust accounts and had a lot of elderly clients they would know how to handle POAs. They kept making up new requirements and changing them when I disputed them, then said they needed to keep the original documents, which I clearly was not giving them. They also said she needed to come in to the bank. That was around the time that my mom was accusing me of theft and abuse so that was no kind of option. (If she saw me move my hands, she said I hit her. She was putting notes on her belongings that had never left her possession saying that I had stolen them, and she told me that my house wasn’t mine because I had stolen it.) I called the bank’s customer service number and they apologized profusely for their bankers’ incompetence, and gave me an email address to send the POA documents to. I think I might have had to fill out some other documents of theirs as well, but once I did that they set me up on her account with no problem.
Did a lawyer draw up this POA? What explanation is the institution with the retirement account giving you as to why your POA is not sufficient to manage these fund? I think it is time to see a Lawyer. None of us could know what is happening as well. I cannot find anything that precludes the POA from acting in banking interests on IRAs; in fact, an IRA often has withdrawal requirements yearly, and you would have to be able to accomplish this for tax filings, lest there be penalities. I did find it difficult to deal with some institutions. Go to the top. Once it was as simple as the explanation that I needed the papers as Trustee of Trust, as the IRA was held in Trust, not the papers as POA for other type accounts. The bank officer should be giving you complete information on why he is refusing cooperation with a legitimate POA, as to do so is against the law and has repercussions. See a lawyer. You are correct that with dementia there is no help from your elder. Hopefully you will not have to do guardianship, but that may be the case. Wishing you good luck and hoping you will update us when you find answers.
I can see that the bank wants POA on its own paperwork - otherwise how would they know and verify that the person claiming to be POA is in fact the CURRENT legal POA and has not been superseded or revoked? Perhaps some jurisdictions have some kind of compulsory registration system that could be used to verify, but I don't think this is generally the case.
Think about it from the bank's point of view: Mom comes in, signs all the appropriate bank forms, notarized, etc. Now bank can say: This person is the legal POA and we are covered as long as we go with that POA that we have on file. Now if I come in with my mother's POA, but not on official bank forms, then how does the bank know that I am in fact the CURRENT legal POA?. That I have not been superseded or revoked? Where could they look it up, like the police checking if I had a valid driver's license? And determine that for sure they are legally protected? Can't really blame anyone for covering their a**, so to speak.
I have a durable POA for my mother but I am also the joint owner on all of her accounts. Her checking, saving, stock and annuity accounts are all in both of our names, so I can access everything without using my POA. This has simplified accessing funds. It might be something for those of you who are considering getting a POA to also do.
Conjoining accounts also makes YOU the legal owner of 50% of everything you now jointly owned with her. You are free to use it for whatever you wish even now. There are ways that can be done, but it is not a good idea most of the time. Just saying that so people understand becoming co-owner of all the those assets can become a problem after the parent passes, especially if there are debts, or siblings, or other complications! Hope it works out in your situation.
I sympathize. The banks were a nightmare to deal with. After dealing with them for my in-laws, we brought my mom to each of her financial institutions and had her sign the paperwork they wanted so we would have it in addition to the Power of Attorney documents.
Friends have said that even if you do that, you have to keep them up to date because they have had banks refuse the paperwork because it was too old. I know they are trying to. protect their clients but...good grief! It's as if they want to make a bad time in your life even worse!
She won't be taking IRA required Payments til she is 70 I believe, unless you want to pay taxes.
If the money in the IRA is needed then just close it and tell the Bank to Deposit it in your Mom's Bank Account. Get the paperwork to add you on her Accounts.
My Dad has dementia but if I ask him to sign his name he will.
You have her Bank information, sign up all her bills to be Auto paid, taken out of her Bank Account.
Get a Credit Card if you don't have one already and Use a Credit Card on buying things, then have the payments made by the Credit Card Co Automatically taking it out of your mom's Bank Account.
I wouldn't waste money hiring a Lawyer.
You should be able to buy everything on a Crefit Card then have it paid by her Checking Account as long as you know all the Bank Info. Then all other monthly bills can also be set up with your Mom's Bank Account paying like her house, insurance, cable, utilities, ect.
Auti Bill pay by putting it on Credit Card or having it taken directly out of mom's Bank Account is easily done.
I did this last year with my parents, they were not happy wanted to keep dealing with their own stuff but the bills were not getting paid all the time. This year my dad has been pretty ill - it has saved my life not to have to deal with all the financial stuff on top of the medical.
Since she now has dementia, you may need to file for legal guardianship. It's a process but will make it possible for you to manage her affairs. Banks and other organizations how have so many more restrictions that it makes it very difficult for them to work with under these circumstances.
I don't have much advice. I just want to commiserate. I know exactly what you're dealing with. I didn't get my moms taxes done until November! It was a nightmare!
You are not alone. All this was new to me. First, check to see if your POA document includes Investments. That is different from checking and savings management. You may need to send a copy of your POA document to the IRA company. See if you can get some legal advice. Check with Senior Centers. They may have an attorney who offers free advice. That’s how we got all our information. We were told to open new bank accounts with your mom and your name on the account as POA. If she has diagnosed Dementia/Alzheimer’s and you have the doctors letters stating that, send copies to Bank and Investment Co. My mon loved to gamble and would withdraw thousands of dollars a week. I had to put a limit on her withdrawals. Eventually, I told her caregiver not to take her to bank or casino! She fought that, but eventually I won. It is frustrating, but remember, her brain is broken and you have to take over. Does she live at home, your home, or a facility?
As far as IRAs go, you can't put an IRA in a trust, but you can certainly direct the investments in it. Of course, I'm the trustee for my mother, not merely a POA, so that might be the difference. A trustee has more powers in terms of financial issues than a POA, I believe.
It'd be worth it to buy an hour of a trust and estate attorney's time to get all this straightened out. Don't assume you can't do anything because your mom has dementia.
I went through this last year with one of my mom’s banks—I assumed that since they held trust accounts and had a lot of elderly clients they would know how to handle POAs. They kept making up new requirements and changing them when I disputed them, then said they needed to keep the original documents, which I clearly was not giving them. They also said she needed to come in to the bank. That was around the time that my mom was accusing me of theft and abuse so that was no kind of option. (If she saw me move my hands, she said I hit her. She was putting notes on her belongings that had never left her possession saying that I had stolen them, and she told me that my house wasn’t mine because I had stolen it.)
I called the bank’s customer service number and they apologized profusely for their bankers’ incompetence, and gave me an email address to send the POA documents to. I think I might have had to fill out some other documents of theirs as well, but once I did that they set me up on her account with no problem.
I cannot find anything that precludes the POA from acting in banking interests on IRAs; in fact, an IRA often has withdrawal requirements yearly, and you would have to be able to accomplish this for tax filings, lest there be penalities.
I did find it difficult to deal with some institutions. Go to the top. Once it was as simple as the explanation that I needed the papers as Trustee of Trust, as the IRA was held in Trust, not the papers as POA for other type accounts. The bank officer should be giving you complete information on why he is refusing cooperation with a legitimate POA, as to do so is against the law and has repercussions.
See a lawyer. You are correct that with dementia there is no help from your elder. Hopefully you will not have to do guardianship, but that may be the case.
Wishing you good luck and hoping you will update us when you find answers.
Friends have said that even if you do that, you have to keep them up to date because they have had banks refuse the paperwork because it was too old. I know they are trying to. protect their clients but...good grief! It's as if they want to make a bad time in your life even worse!
If the money in the IRA is needed then just close it and tell the Bank to Deposit it in your Mom's Bank Account. Get the paperwork to add you on her Accounts.
My Dad has dementia but if I ask him to sign his name he will.
You have her Bank information, sign up all her bills to be Auto paid, taken out of her Bank Account.
Get a Credit Card if you don't have one already and Use a Credit Card on buying things, then have the payments made by the Credit Card Co Automatically taking it out of your mom's Bank Account.
I wouldn't waste money hiring a Lawyer.
You should be able to buy everything on a Crefit Card then have it paid by her Checking Account as long as you know all the Bank Info. Then all other monthly bills can also be set up with your Mom's Bank Account paying like her house, insurance, cable, utilities, ect.
Auti Bill pay by putting it on Credit Card or having it taken directly out of mom's Bank Account is easily done.
See if you can get some legal advice. Check with Senior Centers. They may have an attorney who offers free advice. That’s how we got all our information. We were told to open new bank accounts with your mom and your name on the account as POA. If she has diagnosed Dementia/Alzheimer’s and you have the doctors letters stating that, send copies to Bank and Investment Co.
My mon loved to gamble and would withdraw thousands of dollars a week. I had to put a limit on her withdrawals. Eventually, I told her caregiver not to take her to bank or casino! She fought that, but eventually I won. It is frustrating, but remember, her brain is broken and you have to take over.
Does she live at home, your home, or a facility?
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