The 2nd agent took my mom to open up her own bank account and we had her SS and retirement changed over to her new account. He was in jail with possibility of being sent to prison. Well, he was released and now home so he has opened a new account with both his and my mom's name. Since my mom gave them permission to speak to her husband, her SS and retirement will be sent over to their new account. Does he actually have rights to do this if someone has POA?

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(I think that “he “in the second sentence is the husband, not the second agent. Assuming that, and putting the whole second agent aside):

I’m not a lawyer but here’s how I would frame this:

1-When your Mom signed a durable financial POA, (depending on how it was written, and most cases) she granted you the power to make financial decisions on her behalf/as if you were your mom. By itself, this didn’t mean she couldn’t still make decisions for herself. The rights were *extended* to you, not handed over to you. (You are expected to use them at her direction , or at least in her interest , depending on whether she can make decisions herself).

2-Because it’s a durable power of attorney, that extension of rights continues at the same level even if she loses those powers of decision making herself.

3-And here’s the key point: right now, does she still have financial decision making powers (capacity/competence) herself? She has dementia But we don’t know much about it.. If she does have the ability to make her own financial decisions then certainly she can enter into a joint bank account. And certainly she can redirect her payments for SS and retirement to this account.

However, if she doesn’t have decision making capacity anymore, then as I understand it she can’t enter a new agreement to have a joint bank account, and she can’t redirect her payments either, even if she “gave her Social Security number on the phone”. This in my view is the key issue – not whether the spouse has some powers (which honestly I don’t think he does but I don’t think it’s relevant). Any actions she allegedly took would be invalid, because she can’t take/direct them.

This is messy. It has to do with retroactive second-guessing whether someone is competent to make decisions. And the horse has already left the barn— The money has already been redirected. If you really think that she doesn’t have decision-making capacity, and that this can be well established at the time she allegedly entered into these agreements, then you may need a lawyer involved.

On a practical level, as another poster said, you yourself (under your authority of POA) can undo these two actions, just as she could herself – you can redirect the money to another account, or Potentially take her name off the joint account. But this is a tug-of-war with the husband, and you need to be sure that she doesn’t have capacity and that you’re acting in her best interest before you do so. Plus banks etc. are a little bit leery of people showing up waving a POA and overriding the principal’s decisions, as they should be.

So unfortunately I think a lawyer would be required first.

My sense of the situation.
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Reply to Rumbletown

My wife did a POA to her brother with her sister and BIL as backups. Her sister is named as having Medical Directive. And, her will sends all of her assets to her daughter. These documents were done before we met about 13 years ago. It is a second marriage for both of us with one grown up child each. It has been a wonderful marriage with multiple trips to Europe, Caribbean and Mediterranean cruises, and extensive US travel, everything paid by me, including mortgage, car insurance, everything. All was great until she was diagnosed with PPA. Her entire family turned on me like we had just met and married in Vegas. They try to micromanage her money that we spend, down to the number of eggs we buy. No joke. Right now she is able to live at home but of course continues to deteriorate. I have no right over where she lives( apparently THEY have already picked out a facility). No say even where she is buried. I have and will continue to fight these “family” for her care and my sanity no matter what. Of course, once she is placed in a facility, I will probably be lucky just to visit her. Please, unless your spouse is dysfunctional, a thief or incompetent, don’t do this to them. Watching your wife slowly die is bad enough without having to deal with relatives only concerned with saving money for inheritance
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Reply to Rktechone
Jacquelinezr May 27, 2024
If these were done before you married and you've been married 13 years, there has to be a way to invalidate that. Have you seen an attorney? It just seems illogical to me that they'd still have this right even though you've been married 13 years. A trip to an attorney would be worth the money.
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A durable POA doesn't cover SS.
So how did this "second agent" (whatever and whomever THAT is) get SS funds transferred to a new account.
In order to function with SS you must be a payee.

On to "second agent". What is a second agent?
There is a POA and then there is the "second" or "alternate" who takes over when a first agent resigns or is dead/incapacitated.

I find your whole question so very confusing. If you are POA I cannot understand how someone gets out of jail and takes your demented mom and gets his name on her accounts.
If you are POA you should be taking your papers of proof to the bank to find out what they are doing with your principals funds.

Time to see an attorney or call APS to investigate, because I am really lost in terms of advising you at all. You POA pays for expert advice when needed, and I think now you are needing expert advice.
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Reply to AlvaDeer
spectrum19007 Jun 1, 2024
If the person getting out of jail is the spouse, as it states in the question then it is a complicated situation. PoA can make decisions for the person as if they are that person. However, they would need to be declared legally incompetent to prevent them from making decisions for themselves.
POA is just a word until action is taken on it.
POA gives one the right, if the principal is incompetent, to act for the principal by going, with POA documents, to banks and other financial entities to set things up so that they are safe from the predatory practices of others.

If you have not done this then you are really POA in name only.

It's time now to see an attorney. Your POA pays for expert advice and that's what you need now.
Helpful Answer (5)
Reply to AlvaDeer

If you have financial POA, you may be able to arrange Mom's SS back into an account only in her name. Also to remove Mom's name from a joint account. Dealing with banks though.. is tough!

If Mom & her Husband live together this will keep happening over & over.

Sounds like you need some good legal advice.
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Reply to Beatty

If she has dementia, she can't legally sign anything. Go to the police immediately.
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Reply to Jacquelinezr
spectrum19007 Jun 1, 2024
Just because someone has been diagnosed with dementia, it does not mean that they are unable to make decisions for themselves, legally or practically.
Social Security does not recognize POA. Most government agencies don't. She gave permission for SS to talk to her husband. That was your problem, Mom. Spouse could become payee and as such is incharge of Moms money.

Just read ur profile. With Dementia, Mom could not have given her spouse permission. But then, again, he is her spouse.
Helpful Answer (3)
Reply to JoAnn29

No, he doesn't. And he would have had to forge her signature on docs to open new account. That's a felony. The bank would need her signature not just a verbal permission. Turn him in.
Helpful Answer (3)
Reply to Deb4Mom

Best to discuss with an attorney.
Every situation (and perhaps State requirements) are different.
Helpful Answer (3)
Reply to TouchMatters

Sit down with her and go on SS online. Create an account if needed. You will find the box yo change
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Reply to MACinCT

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