How to find out how much my Mom's SSI actually is even though another sibling has POA?

I"m not sure which state you are in, but in some states, the Power of Attorney must be filed with the Register of Deeds or some county or court office once the person is acting as POA. Then, UNLESS the documents says otherwise, they have to file an annual accounting of money in and money out with the clerk of court. You might check on that.

Also, if you mom gets direct deposit, the amount of that deposit should be on the bank statement, if you have access to it.

Can you ask the POA outright to see the numbers? You might try to go over his head and Petition the court to get control, but that seems like a lot of work if this is the only issue you have with the POA. It take a lot of time to act as a POA I can relate. Though the document says I should be compensated for my time as a POA, there is no money for that so I end up devoting lots of time and energy for which I am not compensated. If you suspect something is amiss, I would discuss it and try to sort it out with the POA.

JeffST, we really need more information? So, I'm going to ask a lot of questions.

Sorry to hear this, but the POA is the only one who can access that information from the bank. Do you have any idea of your mom's financial situation before the POA sibling took over? If the POA has been spending your mother's money on her care, then there might not be much money left. How long has the POA sibling been overseeing your mothers care?

Also, unlike a person who has guardianship over someone who has been declared incompetent, the person with a POA does not have to file a report of how the money is being spent. Now that might be different in your state, but that is usually the case. Some people who have POA send copies of bank statements to siblings, but they are not required to. I never did, but I did keep good records. The POA must keep good records to help the CPA prepare the parent's taxes at the end of the year.

What exactly do you mean by "just hand writes what he spends"? Are you talking about just writing checks or just making a handwritten list of what he has spent and how much it was? If it is a list of what the money has been spent on and how much it was, then what is the money being spent for?

Does your mother live in a house that she's paid for or in an apartment that she rents? Either way, I don't see why the POA can't just let the siblings come in and select the memorabilia. Is there a Will and is anything mentioned in it about who gets what of the family stuff? How much stuff are we talking about? A whole house or just an apartment? Why does it need to be in storage for 2-3 months?

How is no money an excuse for not taking her to a nursing home if the doctor says she needs one and if she would qualify for medicaid to pay for it. No money is more of an argument for sending her to a nursing home if that is where she needs to be and you can't just send someone to a nursing home, they must meet certain criteria of need and how it will be paid for.

Is the POA working on getting medicaid for your mother? The application process for Medicaid involves looking back over bank statements for he past 5 years to see how the money has been spent, was it spent for her care and how much if any was gifted? Plus, your mother can only have so much in savings and only get so much money per month to qualify.

How old is your mother? What is the condition of her mental and physical health? Has her doctor said that she needs to be in a nursing home?

I'd also like to know how involved have you and the other siblings been in your mother's care or has all of this fallen upon the POA sibling? What difference is it going to make knowing how much money she gets from social security?

I would try having a family meeting with the POA to discuss what is going on first before trying to go over their head. If you take an antagonistic approach of accusing them, then that could damage family relationships.

Let me start in the middle with the storage. As I mentioned some of us are in agreement to just "Donate, sell on craigslist give it to goodwill or the restore or even an estate sale. The sibling with the P.O.A. feels it needs to go into storage first- why we don't know and no reason we can logically figure out why. So the siblings living close to my mom have said if that sibling wants to put it in storage " then go ahead but they won't help move the things. They want to donate the stuff and just call someone to come and get it, I feel the same. I'm 500 miles away so I can't just run down there and help move anything. So it's a stand-off he wants to store it-they want to give it away. The sibling with the P.O.A. puts it this way and might be right. If mom goes into a nursing home on Feb.1st. then someone is going to have to pay for the rental of the apartment or storage because the nursing home has said they keep everything except $45.00. which wouldn't leave any extra for storage or to keep the apartment. We think there should be money left over from each month social security but the P.O.A . claims there is not enough to pay for storage and hire help to move the stuff.
As far as everyone involved including the sibling with the P.O.A. care giver co. she should be in a nursing home. (as of this mess. I have not spoken to the doctors office) but I'm sure they will agree.
Problem is in the 2 days I was visiting. I checked out 2 nursing homes and found the one she was excited about going into. While I was there, I heard complaints from care givers- she wouldn't let them do their job, she refuses to wear a hearing aide, chewed them out all the time-( verbally abusive) and wouldn't let them bath her. the house smelled terrible,and now wear's rubber gloves to keep people from " stealing her rings" which I'm told is now creating a moister problem. The my sibling with the P.O.A. says everything is fine now (yesterday care givers said it wasn't)and refuses to ans. the phone " because we are causing too much stress"

Having no money for a nursing home is not a valid excuse since this sibling can apply for Medicaid on behalf of your mom and Medicaid, once approved, will pay for the nursing home. Until then most nursing homes will allow someone to stay as long as they're in the Medicaid process and are handing over the person's income each month which may be why the sibling with the POA doesn't want to put your mom in a nursing home.....they'd lose access to your mom's money.

Anytime I hear of a POA being secretive it sounds the alarms. If someone isn't doing anything wrong then someone with POA should welcome questions and be forthright with any information.

Jeff - this has got to be so difficult for all & everybody is under stress. If your 500 miles away it's especially hard as what you are hearing is piecemeal & filtered through others viewpoints.

About SS, the information on the amount & deductions (this would be taken out for Medicare) will be in 2 documents: the annual awards letter which is mailed in Dec & the tax/income statement which is mailed in January. I'd suggest trying to find these from last year & the 2015 award letter that just got mailed. If the caregiver/POA sibling cant seem to find these or won't work with you, I'd clearly but firmly make them aware that whomever applies for Medicaid for mom when she goes into a NH will have to provide these for the Medicaid application & also must have them for the NH to view to decide IF they will even accept mom as a "Medicaid Pending" resident. The NH will need & must be paid by mom as her co-pay (this is also known as the SOC - share of cost) and this SOC is based on their income. If mom gets other income or retirement, those awards letters too will be needed as well.

SS is very difficult for anyone but the actual reciepient to get access to the account. SS doesn't recognize POA's for even more fun, so calling SS will be totally frustrating and you get nowhere. BUT as poa you can sit with mom and go online to do things with SS like change banks direct deposit, change of address, get old awards statements. Someone is going to havebto get these for the medicaid application eventually.

About the amount of SS income, if its based on your dads work history and dad would be now in his 90's, then if he had an average income during his working life, then mom probalby has a SS survivor benefit of about $600-700 a month of which about $100 is taken out for Medicare. If dad was low wage earner or self employed so his business made income but he personally did not, the survivor benefit could be even lower, like maybe $400-500 a month. There could well be very little income, your caregiver sibling could be right about the $.

No,No, I don't think you understand. It's not having enough money for the nursing home. Here let me try to explain it this way. Let's say the nursing home says they can take my mom on Jan 1st or Feb 1st. which is a short notice. But in order to get her in there ALL her social security HAS to be signed over to them and they take ALL except $45.00 ( that they have already told me) and that's regardless of the amount of her soc.sec. whether it's 1100.00 or 1600. Now let's they move her in there on Feb.1st. and my sibling gives the Nursing her check. and they give them back the 45.00. Now like all landlords you either pay your rent or move out BUT they still will charge you for the WHOLE month of FEB. if ALL of your things are NOT out by that time plus may come after you for breaking a lease. In which case the sibling with the P.O.A. which is also on the lease would be accountable. I and the other siblings who think the stuff should just be gotten rid don't want to chip in for the apartment because the Sibling with the P.O.A. may drag their feet in getting the stuff out. When I said he/she hand writes everything out I meant he/she has a list as to what everything "cost" no one except him/her knows exactly what my mom gets as a s.s.. she is getting medicaid though. Although I believe the P.O.A. sibling is being honest others think there should be a little more money left at the end of each month. I just don't know how to find out. The siblings living close to my mom are already bickering "I do more" you could at least do ????. It's gotten down to well if you think you can do better move down here- you only come around once a year-so -on and so-on. I know if I force the issue then I would be the brother that put mom in a nursing home when she didn't need to go- or because of me they got stuck with all the extra rental lease payoff or bills. Funny ( not really) we are not squabbling over money,just when my mom should go into a nursing home, because as I said WE ALL agree that's where she should be. As I also mentioned I think I've taken it as far as I can. I checked out at 2 nursing homes, contacted the care providers, got her an appointment to see her doctor- because she has to be evaluated in order to be excepted ( unless she goes through an E.R. through the hosp. I even re-contacted the nursing home to find out about availability and they had beds open but it's first come first serve as we all know.
I'm just not sure where to go from this point. If I was the only one that felt a nursing home might be the thing to do- then I'd say maybe I'm wrong.

Jeff also about the storage situation. I'm assuming that the thought is that mom is going to need to be in a NH as you mentioned Feb 1st? Once mom goes into a facility & applies for Medicaid, that will mean that to qualify for Medicaid mom has spent - down all of her assets to about 2K and that all her monthly income is now required to be paid to the NH as her SOC. All mom will have is a small personal needs allowable of $35-90 a month (depends on your state, for my mom it's $60), which is really just enough to pay for beauty salon & some clothing replacement. She will not have $ to pay for storage unit. so family will have to pay for it. There could be continuing family friction over these costs. Often the units get abandoned......

If mom has a home or other debts, those too will need to be paid by family if they want to keep the house or pay life insurance premiums, or on her funeral policy, etc. Essentially she will not have income anymore once in NH. Whomever is doing the application for mom, really should look hard at her debt before they do the application to see if asset $( like her savings or if she has cash value in insurance policies) is better getting or paying off her funeral policy or on dental work or medical items (eyeglasses, hearing aids, highnend wheelchair) before the application. Otherwise family will end up having to pay for these as mom has no real income to pay.

Jeff, the average SS check is about $1200. Mom has to pay those caregivers. There is no money left over. In a Nursing Home, she will get $45 a month, no more. That isn't even enough to cover co-pays. There are no funds for taxes, utilities, storage or anything else. Do the math in your head. Use a pencil if you must.

Again it seems I'm not making myself clear. I have already checked into how much my mom will be able to keep. That is 45.00 dollars regardless of how much soc.sec. she gets. Whether it's 1000. or 2000. I have been told she only gets to keep 45.00 dollars. She already gets Medicaid. So that isn't an issue. The issue is I guess for the sibling with the P.O.A. is when and if my mom goes into the N.H. how soon do they take that money and what about my mothers current obligation of the lease. Currently everything is being paid for either with her Soc.Sec. or medicaid. My question I thought was simple. So I'll ask it a different way. Is there a way to find out exactly how much income my mother is getting WITHOUT coming flat-out and asking or accusing our sibling of anything. I personally don't think anything is amiss, but the others do. We can guess all day long.
And the reason we need to find out is because the sibling with the P.O.A. is using " not enough money to put things in storage" as an excuse for not taking her to a N.H. again although we ALL agree it would be best for her.

Okay: your POA sibling says that your mother can't go into a nursing home because there's no money to pay for moving and storage of her things or to finance payment of rent for the remainder of the lease term.

Your other siblings think that there is money, or if there isn't, there should be, and that your POA sibling is either lying or has been mismanaging your mother's affairs. They want to know what your mother's monthly income is in order to prove it.

And then what?

Your mother still needs to be moved to a nursing home. All of whatever amount she receives will be paid directly to the nursing home starting immediately upon her admission. (Your siblings do understand that the money will no longer go through the POA sibling's hands, don't they?). If your mother needs that level of care, that's what you siblings should be figuring out.

For heaven's sake, someone should review the lease, see if there's an escape clause, talk to the landlord, etc.

Is there any way to reboot the discussion with the POA sibling? If everything is on the up and up (even if the record keeping is a bit informal) the POA must feel totally hammered on. Can you mediate?

Mother needs skilled nursing home care. She is already on Medicaid. No problem for NH costs.

As soon as mother moves into NH all of her income (minus $45/month) will go to the NH. But if her lease isn't up and she isn't moved out of her current place she will owe rent there and/or storage costs. She won't have any income to pay those costs.

It seems to me that what she gets per month is not very relevant. What matters is
1) when is her lease up?
2) what would it take to end the lease earlier?
3) what is the long-term disposition of her furniture to be? Is there anything to prevent that disposition to happen ASAP with some stuff, and with all of it the final month of the lease?

Who has health care power of attorney (aka medical proxy)? That person should be making decisions about how soon Mother needs a nursing home. Then POA needs to work to make that happen financially. It really doesn't matter if the SS amount is $800 or $1600. And it doesn't matter if she moves in Feb or June -- something has to be done with her property the final month she is renting. If she can't go to a NH because she can't afford to move/store stuff now, how could she at any time in the future? And yet the move has to be made.

Personally, I think family energy would be better directed at solving the problem of how to handle property disposition before Mother moves to NH, and also dealing with the terms of the lease. Trying to retroactively oversee how POA managed the money in the past seems a waste of time and cause for hard feelings.

Most seniors living on SS scarcely have enough money to meet living expenses month to month. It seems unlikely to me that POA could have been skimming off the top without seriously depriving your mother. Do the other siblings think that was happening? Because that is the only reason I can think of for fussing over the past SS amount.

Mother appointed the POA. The POA does not owe the siblings an accounting. Though why he doesn't just say what the income and outgo have been and shut everyone up is a mystery to me. Nevertheless. if mother is satisfied with how he has handled her finances, it really is none of the siblings' business.

(Reading between the lines a little, I wonder if there are some hidden issues here. Such as POA gives lip service to agreeing to NH but doesn't really want it to happen, or other siblings have prior grudges against POA. Nothing is ever straight-forward in families, is it?)

It sounds like you are caught in the middle. Someone needs to stand up and direct everyone's attention to solving the current lease/property issues so that Mother can get the care she needs. Can that someone be you?

Jeff, if mom goes in the nursing home Feb 1, all the SS goes to them starting Feb 1. If mom is on Medicaid already, her SS has to be below the state poverty level guideline or expenses are so high there is a need for aid from the government. There is no way to pay for anything once she is in the NH. The landlord will likely have to take her deposit to cover his losses. If you don't get the stuff out of there, the landlord will probably call a storage company. They will be all too happy to demand ransom at market rates.

Geez! Social Security benefits are all over the board it seems. My Mom receives $106.00 a month, thank goodness she also has a retirement benefit!

Ok, let's end this discussion. too many not actually reading before they respond. I was looking for helpful suggestions, Not answers to questions I already had the answer too.

Jeannegibbs said it all perfectly. Focus on getting your mother into proper care.

I'm concerned about the POA sibling. If you read many posts on this forum you'll find that it's common for families to think that a caregiving sibling is freeloading off the parent, which, if untrue, is heartbreaking for the caregiver. It isn't clear to me from your postings what the POA sibling's home situation is. Does the POA work? Have a family at home? Coordinate medical appointments, provide transportation, shop for your mother? Does he or she live with your mother?

Can you shed some light on this?

In that case, Jeff, there's a simple answer to your original question, which has been given repeatedly on this thread if you, in fact, are actually reading what's written: short of going to court, no; but public statistics tell us that the average Social Security retirement pension is only about $1,200.

I was only asking " if there was another way to find out" I know going to court is one way and that would be what might be necessary. And I did read that" court was in several ans. and I did read about how much S.S. I just thought as siblings without dragging stuff through the courts if the rest of us might have the right to that info also. I know we can call. However I found this board and stupid me thought someone might have already gone through something similar and would say "YES or NO" and maybe a lead as to who to contact. My answer is " No one has experienced it and to contact social security or the bank, and see what their answer is.

Jeff, I wrote near the start of this thread that the POA is the only one who has access to that information from the bank. So NO, there is no other way to find out that information unless.

A. You were the POA which you are not. The bank will tell you no if you ask.
B. You saw her bank statement which I gather you have not.
C. You prepared her taxes which you don't.
D. You could ask social security, but they will not give you the answer.
E. File for Guardianship by taking your mom to court to prove she is incompetent and thus gain total control of her medical and financial situation. That costs about $5,000 and requires two doctors to say she is incompetent. However, it does not sound that there is enough time for that.

What not just ask the POA nicely.

So, to say it again, the neither yourself nor the other siblings have the legal right to get the information you desire from the bank or from social security because none of you have her POA. And the bank and social security is going to look you in the face and say, no have POA, no way.

Well, if you insist on taking this to court to find out how much her social security check is then go ahead, but be prepared for a lot of damaged relationships. Is all that really worth finding out how big the check is? Has anyone even asked the POA how much her check is?

I refer to that money you are describing as float money. It's the money in mom's account that should not be sent to the NH because her billing will start on Day one when she enters and this float money is money she has accumulated for the prior month. That money goes fast. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Even if you use it for moving truck, storage fees, it won't last long. Maybe 2-3 months for storage. Then who is going to pay? You also may have her life insurance, and other bills that she will not be able to cover long term. Are the children going to split those?

I'm still not clear on the POA saying there's no money to go to NH. Assuming she qualifies, they take her income, minus her monthly maintenance amount, plus what Medicaid kicks in. If you qualify, there is no "not affording to go." You may not be able to go into a Private Pay facility, but I don't get what he is saying. If she needs to go, then press it with him.

Why not ask the P.O.A nicely? We do and all we get is the " hand written itemized list" as I mentioned ( although I only said Hand written ).
your last sentence is why I was asking such a dumb question---- The P.O.A. account of the money.- Please let's move on- bad inquiry on my part.

Jeff, it wasn't a dumb question at all. Is the itemized list not sufficient I guess the rest of us don't get why siblings think there is a ton of money. Maybe there is 1200. Per month. How much are rent, utilities, depends caregivers? If mom is on medicaid, all that will go to nh. I'm not sure what we're missing.

Jeff - about the $45.00 which mom can retain from whatever is the mystery amount that mom gets from SS. It is not the DPOA or the MPOA's money. Most facilities will have the admissions contract done so that they in fact get all of the residents monthly income. They in turn create a residents personal needs allowance trust account that the $ 45 goes into each month. If there are expenses paid by the NH for the resident which Medicaid does not pay for, the NH reduces the $45 by the charge. Often this is done to pay for cable or phone as the whole place is wired so prorated. If family want to use some of the $45 to go to target to buy socks, then family who has their name on the list as approved by the DPOA comes to the business office and signs a ledger for whatever amount they take. My moms NH sends a statement on the PNA to me every 90 days.

Now in theory, you do not have to allow NH to get their SS or retirement monthly. But the NH may require that if you go the route of family sending the NH a check from the residents bank account, that you personally sign an agreement on late fees and have to set up a personal trust account for a nominal amount (maybe 6 months worth of their PNA).

Jeff, where is your poor mother in all this? Would it make sense to do the following? Start with the assumption that your POA sibling is honest and there is no money. Work as a family to get your mother into a nursing home based on that assumption. Help the POA sibling to get it all done --- it's too much to expect one person to do it all, particularly if you want it done fast. During the process you will undoubtedly learn what you want to know and can act accordingly in the future.

OK as I said let's move on. end the discussion.

no one said they thought there was a ton of money.

You can always contact adult protective services in your area, they would be able to speak with your mom and if she's capable she can give them permission to look at 'the books'.
Generally it's a good thing to keep receipts and if need be a notebook with everything written in it. Adequate records are important.
It may be that mom's expenses take her entire ss check. Without authorization you cannot obtain that information.
I hope things work out. You may want to contact your local area agency on aging or bureau of senior services and ask about in home programs to keep mom at home longer. some programs even help to pay for assisted living.

Having to deal with Social Security recently and up on HIPPA laws, good luck finding out what the amount of your mother's SSI is. Does she have dementia? You don't say, just that your sister has POA. By the way, Social Security DOES NOT accept POAs in order to deposit money into their account, and if your sister does not become a "Representative Payee" then she is taking that money without the permission of social security. If the money is a disability, each state has a certain set amount allocated for all diabilities, so just ask social security what her states pays. All you siblings could donate funds to keep her things in storage until a decision can be made about her living arrangements. If one is just receiving SSI, then they probably cannot afford to go into a nursing home which typically costs around $4000 - $6000/mth. Check into filing with Medicaid.

I have shared everything with my siblings which means they all know how much SS my dad has along with other monies. POA or not... it should be shared to avoid any questions as to how money is spent. On storage... we just have been discussing that. My father just went to assisted living and will soon be on hospice. We are going to divide his things and sell what no one wants. This is really tough, but unless someone in the family wants to put what they take in storage at their own expense, we have decided to pay for storage is really not financially possible. It is so hard to let go of material things when there is a memory attached to them..memories you will always have though. I have learned over doing this a couple of times, that the less you take, just very special items, makes memories stronger. I feel for you.

I actually think I understand what's going on here.

The sibling that is POA is also on the lease, and so if/when your mom goes into a nursing home, that sibling is going to be responsible for carrying out the terms of the lease. If your mom's belongings aren't out by a certain date, the sibling will be responsible for one month's rent. If he gets all of your mom's stuff out of the apartment, what is he going to do with it?

Am I right?

Why don't you just ask your sibling that is POA how much your mother gets in SS every month? Why would that be a horrible thing? You don't have to ask in an accusatory manner. $45 certainly isn't enough to pay rent nor for a storage unit. Or, instead of bringing up the money issue, why don't you & your siblings try to figure out a solution to the problem? For example---have everybody get together one weekend, get a dumpster & clean the apartment out. Keep the stuff your mother needs, get rid of the stuff she doesn't need. Speak to the landlord & explain the situation, see what can be done. Don't make it about the money, make it about what your mother needs & how you're ALL going to get that accomplished.

Soc. Sec. does NOT recognize power of attorney. In order to receive information from an individual's record, it must be the individual himself, his legal guardian, or his representative payee making the inquiry. If mom is receiving SSI it is because she either had no or low earnings during her working years. This would only give her an aged the benefit of approximately $733 a month (depending on the State in which she resides). Her benefit amount maybe less if she has any overpayments resulting from things like living arrangement changes or someone giving her money or contributing money to her household and living expenses.