Does anyone know of a hoarder that GIVES AWAY their substantially valuable possessions?

My mom had dementia and could no longer live by herself. We hired a local business with CNA’s to stay with her.

After mom passed, we started working on her house full of her “worldly possessions”. We noticed a lot of things missing from coffee mugs, to towels, pots, pans, clothes, shoes, coolers and even frozen food, as well as over 40K worth of jewelry that mom wouldn’t let me remove from her house to avoid this situation.

We asked the caregivers to bring her belongings back that they took without our permission.

One of them was calm and claimed she didn’t have anything. The other one got very nasty. A day or so later, the nasty one sent my sister a text telling her that she DOES HAVE some of my mom’s belongings that my mom supposedly GAVE her that she didn’t want me or my sister to have... My mom made me and my sister 50/50 beneficiaries of her estate.

A few days later, my sister got a text from the caregiver saying that if we wanted to talk to her, we needed to go through her Attorney! Now mind you, she hasn’t been questioned by the police, but has hired a Criminal Defense Attorney? Hmmmmm!

My mom never GAVE ANYONE anything of hers, EVER. She would ask me if I wanted anything in her house. When I would tell her about a specific item, she would tell me I could have it, BUT, it’s being used right now and I’d have to wait.

Every drawer, closet, nook and cranny had things in them. Now, they are all empty or half empty.

My mom had severe dementia and the very seasoned caregiver knew it was unethical to take anything from a patient, ESPECIALLY one cognitively impaired.

Most recent, the text messages on both my and my sisters phones that incriminate her, have been hacked.

We have filed a police report and they are investigating. Our phones are heading to the Forensics Lab Monday.

I need your help. Do any of you know a hoarder that gives anything away, especially things of substantial value? And do any of you know a hoarder that has empty drawers and closets?

I guess that sounds as crazy as this situation, but I need to convince law enforcement that this is a criminal case of elder exploitation and we need to dig deeper. The burden of proof is on me. Your input and experience with hoarders is not proof, but might be enough to make them press on with charges. If that fails, we’re heading to civil court.

Thank you!

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I would assume that you have been in touch with the local business that employed the aides. Do they have a policy document about gifts? Nasty's admission that she took gifts in breach of her employer's policy might help with the police. I think your mother's doctor's statement would help - that your mother was indeed a hoarder and that she showed no indication that she would cut down her possessions eg by giving them away. A recent post referred to a 'children of hoarders' site, which I looked up. It had extensive input about hoarding as an issue, as well as many individual case histories. The site managers might also answer your question, and it would have a better 'probative' value about hoarding behaviour. You should also look for text books about hoarding - a good librarian may be able to do some of the leg work for you.

It is worth saying that technically, the burden of proof is not on you. Of course it's not! However I know full well that many prosecutor agencies do their best to stay away from awkward cases that don't seem to have much straightforward evidence, so you have my sympathy. But you don't have to 'prove' it to the judge, just enough evidence to provide the prosecution with enough confidence to take it on. The more 'official' your evidence sounds, the better. A few anecdotal statements will be demolished by any competent defense lawyer. If you end up with a civil case, all the evidence you collect now will be valuable, so you are not wasting your time.
Helpful Answer (1)

I would check in with the agency about what their policy about staff receiving gifts. Prehaps filing a complaint with them. You do have the burden of proof.

My mother is a hoarder. When my BF and I moved in it was hell to make her throw things away that were junk. Like old magazines...empty bottles of old cleaning products...etc. She has sense gave up some things, but like your mother mind would NEVER just give things away especially her jewelry. But dementia makes people do weird things.

Countrymouse is right the CNA were begging for trouble accepting any gifts even if your mother wanted them to have it.

And I have to say, the one CNA wasn't very smart telling you or your sister that she has your mom's things. I hope you kept the texts messages. I would check to see if the CNA's have a FB acct some people will post their crimes online. Why? God only knows!
I do believe you are on the right track with the police.

Good luck and God bless you and your sister.
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JFJINAL729 Oct 2018
God bless you for responding!

The “Agency” consists of 2 people. The “owner” is the other lapsed CNA. There is no policy, plan or employee handbook. We had them establish a business so we could claim moms expenses for tax purposes as well as their liability for whatever incident that could arise. They provided us a business license and name of the company. They were licensed, insured and bonded. I checked into their business license to find out if they were an LLC, Partnership or other to research their liability. I was told that they had a license from 10/16 until 12/16. The license was never renewed! Very stupid on their part. Their personal assets are now at stake. I am trying to find out the penalty for operating a business without a license but no one seems to be appalled or shocked about this situation so I doubt they do much. Maybe a fine or something.

We asked the “owner” for the name of the insurance company to check into filing a claim. To date, we have never gotten a response. We believe now that there isn’t any insurance.

I must agree with you that the lapsed CNA that sent my sister the text admitting she had mom’s belongings was VERY STUPID. My sister has asked her twice what items she has but no response has been provided. I had my sister send me the text. While at the attorneys office signing estate documents, I told him about the situation. When I went to show him, the text was GONE! He advised I inform the police.

Luckily, I took a screenshot of the text to show the police, otherwise I don’t think they would have acted on it. After speaking with the police, I contacted my sister. Her text was gone too along with other texts from the CNA that have the potential to be used against her. Now she has put herself in a wire tampering and destruction of evidence situation. Her desperation is proving her guilt, in my eyes anyway.
But hey, that’s great on our part.

The police will be forensically checking our phones to prove that they were hacked. How we PROVE she did it or was responsible for having it done may be complicated but it would seem to me the fact that the only texts hacked were from her, about her own incrimination would be enough to preclude that no one else would have hacked only her messages.

I was concerned the lapse of her certification would preclude her from being held to the CNA standard of “accepting gifts”, but think her past experience is enough to prove she knew better. Furthermore, we were unaware that their certifications lapsed or we would have terminated them. I’m hoping that working under false pretenses is also a possible charge for both of them.

The hoarding issue was addressed initially for safety reasons. My sister and I, as well as the CNA’s moved and got rid of the piled up junk on the floor, but had to wait until mom was asleep so it wouldn’t upset her for ridding her hoarded possessions. Tables and counter tops were cleared of clutter as well and kept that way.

It was and still is very apparent that mom was a hoarder which my sister and I have cringed about for years. However, it may be a blessing in disguise as used to show that hoarders do not give their possessions to anyone. That’s why I posted my question. Responses from people like you may not be proof in the eyes of the law, but enough to presume that the majority of hoarders will not part with their worldly possessions under any circumstance.

Thank you again for responding. You have provided me with a light at the end of the tunnel. God bless!
This is a criminal case of theft. Go to the police.

In these circumstances, while any accused person is innocent until proven guilty, the burden would fall on the CNA to prove that your mother did give her these items.

There is:

your mother's well known attitude to her possessions
the CNA's position of trust
possibly the agency's policy on staff's accepting gifts?
the absence of any evidence of your mother's intention to make presents

And frankly, any CNA who accepts a gift in such circumstances is begging for trouble; and this CNA should have known that. Even if your mother was pressing items into her hand, it's hard to sympathise.

About the drawers being cleared or partially cleared - just to check, did the agency you hired have any instructions to attempt to deal with the hoarding?
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JFJINAL729 Oct 2018

Thank you for responding to me. At this point, I personally need the validation. I have spoken to a lot of people in positions of authority regarding this nightmare and initially they seem concerned and appalled. They offer their services to contact them for information or questions, but they never respond.

I have been losing hope and feeling down and depressed. You have helped me regain some drive to press on with finding justice for my mom.

Regarding drawers that were hard to close and empty now, I doubt they could use that in a valid defense that they were creating a safe environment when nothing in the drawers was posing a threat to my moms safety. In other words, it can’t really be explained from the aspects of my mom’s hoarding.

I appreciate your help and that of others who take their free time to reach out to a stranger in need of help. Gods blessings to you!

I have addressed all of the issues at hand in a response to another person that replied to my question. Please read it so you can see where things stand at this point.

By all means, if anything else comes to mind, please share it with me. I truly appreciate your thoughts.
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