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I have both medical & financial POA's for parent with Alzheimer's.

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In order to be found incompetent there is a test it is called a neuro-psych evaluation, you find out about it through a neurologist. it need not be expensive, but if you have brothers or sisters who think they should be in charge(or contest) that is where the big money comes in...to begin with you file a petition (motion) with the court asking to be the guardian, if you have no contests, it would be about a thousand dollars. Does your Mom agree for you to be in charge, if she is competent? Unfortunately our seniors cannot imagine that they will not be in charge our 87 year old who cannot remember more than five minutes claims she is still in charge if herself, but she was declared incompetent in 2009. So although you want to give a person their autonomy, truth is ALZ. or dementia robs them of that as another person has to step in, whether they want it or not. POA can be signed at a currency exchange and is very valid. Only one person can be guardian,,,so lets say there is not a consensus kind of document, which is what the father thought would happen when he died, about his wife our 87 year old. In case you are wondering, we went through the department of aging to report the other siblings (who had the poa's) were neglecting their mother, never buying her food or medicine, even though they were in charge of her money. Everybody had an attorney, and then a guardian at litem was appointed fee 15,000 lawyer 1 12,000. lawyer 2 10,000, our lawyer was 6,000. all of which ended up being paid by the mothers sale of her property. She, the ,mother is still living at home,but not hers and her children can only see her once every six weeks...their aim was not that they were going to take care of her at home, but screw the youngest son for taking care of his father and then his mother, for spite of being reported...but their true colors are showing and the court is no longer fooled, they lost all their powers a guardian was appointed at $6,000 + a year, a guardian at litem x dollars and the bank poa at $7,000 a year and the caretakers providing 24/7 care, Zip! But she is still in a home and not an NH. the way that she wanted. Even if your mother is incompetent the court may see it your way and all this worry would be for nothing and that is what I am hoping for you, good luck!
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I'm not sure I understand all this, but if you have a DPOA AND an elder is declared incompetent, than they cannot change the DPOA or appoint someone else - so would not guardianship be more than you need - assuming that the elder was declared incompetent. I can see if there is some question of that, then the guardianship would be best, even if expensive. Am I right here?
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Lawyer said not sure they will find her incompetent,
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Guardianship is the only way to guarantee you have no problems. Sunflo2 is absolutely right but this takes a very proactive approach. Guardianship guarantees cintrol.
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I do have DPOA, Mom can not give him anything now as I have been taking care of her finances for over a year. The problem is he gets out of a mental facility and brought her to a lawyer to her DPOA. He almost succeeded as Mom does not fully understand what he is doing. She had spoke to her x daughter in law the same day my brother took her to a lawyer to start DPOA, Mom did not remember. I have filed exploitation for all the money Jay has already been given and the fact he had her take money out of her personal account at assisted living I put in for Mom. He reminded her of her funds and she took money out and gave him $40 for a pizza and did not bring back the change and told her it was left for a tip. This is minor, compared to the thousands he talked her out of when she had her finance control. Now he is trying to get DPOA. He has lost his wife, kids, car and is losing his home that Mom co-signed for. Taxes are not paid on his house and Mom is responsible, He has physically abused me 3 times. This last time was at her facility and he is only allowed supervised visits. At the moment Mom has asked to keep him away. But on the exploitation charge I am trying to hold him responsible for I feel Mom's Elder attorney should represent her, Not a lawyer for me. Her attorney feels Guardianship is the only answer and has told me that for a year or more. I think it is expensive and unnecessary if her attorney goes to court and makes sure Jay can take or have no more money.And not try to brainwash her into thinking he needs to do it. He is my half brother and never until my step Dad passed has he considered me a half sister and calls me by my biological name which I have not used since I was 6 years old. He is greedy......I never would of thought he would do all this. I have lost a Dad, my Mom has declined and a brother I loved so much has turned over GREED...
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You DONT have DPOA authority if mom is still managing her affairs, that is signing stuff, giving brother money, etc. in other words, if she is still making decisions, poor ones or not -- then you don't have a legally "invoked" DPOA. You can't invoke it yourself without a dr's writing that she is incompetent or your mom legally turning over her affairs to you --in which she has to have this drawn up legally with a lawyer who believes she is doing it of her own free will.

BTW, my above post was based on an attorney in VA. I won't give the town...but in my mind the whole system was "f'd" up and my mom is still living on her own. She was diagnosed with dementia by primary care physician who has been her dr for 25 yrs, she was diagnosed same with neurologist, psychiatrist, under behavioral care, etc. -- all documented in med records but the drs were very reluctant to declare incompetency or be challenged in court. I'm designated as her DPOA and the documents were drawn up by her attorney --but without her being declared incompetent in writing and signed by dr and/or mom turning over her affairs for me to manage (which she refuses "as she isn't ready"), then legally there is nothing I can do.

You can go for Guardianship, but it isn't always automatic and can be contested by others like your bro.
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I do have DPOA, but Jay had my Mom at a lawyer ready and talked into giving him DPOA, then did not remember it. Plus she wants to move with me to Virginia, Her Elder Attorney said she needs a Guardian to keep all this under control. Memory Clinic is wrong about their findings. But it has been 6 months since they have checked her. Unfortunately she has a new Doctor that does not know her well enough to write a letter.
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It sounds like you don't have POA invoked. You are only designated as POA if mom is incompetent. BTW, you don't need guardianship if you already have medical and financial POA. You just need to have it invoked via having DR write a letter declaring Mom is not capable of managing her financial and medical affairs on her own.

Then you carry copy of DPOA to bank, etc and transfer funds to a safe account that you control. Leave just enough to pay bills and allowance for mom. Then she can't write checks or give money to sibs.

If they fight it, then LET them take you to court and pay the legal fees to fight it.

You don't have to do anything if you truly have DPOA for mom AND it is invoked. If it isn't and she is still able to manage her affairs even if you don't agree with her choices --then there is nothing you can do.

Posters are correct. Guardianship is long drawn out and traumatic for all involved including VERY EXPENSIVE. And it may not go in your favor, mom will be independently examined by drs, a social worker will visit her home and interview family members friends and neighbors possibly to understand her mental state and how she manages day to day....they could possibly end up saying she isn't perfect, but she's not incompetent and judge rules to leave her as is and reevaluate in 3 mo, yada yada. Then you are nowhere--just out several thousand dollars that comes from your pocket NOT MOMs. They could even appt independent guardian because of family strife and you then lose all control over MOM.

Consult lawyer (elder specialist). That's what I did and that's how I learned about above.
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Mom and I are moving in September to Virginia. I have filed an exploitation charge on my half brother. He has "borrowed" over $45,000 plus was given a Kabota tractor free that is worth $14,000. He continues to try and get POA and has physically abused me 3 times. He was just let out of a court ordered Mental Facility and threw me on the floor at Mom's Assisted Living on 6/30. That is still coming up in court. He needs more money or he will lose his house that Mom co-signed. She does not remember. Adult Protective Services in Vermont are useless and claim that Mom allows this and knows what she is doing. How can she when she does not remember? Jay has no car, repossessed when he was in the Mental Facility.He saved some money (as he is on disability for mental), and got out 3 weeks ago and rented cars, bought a cell phone and buys take out food, yet Mom is responsible for his taxes that have not been paid in almost 3 years. How can any judge not think that is exploitation? I guess I need to hire another Lawyer for if I am to pursue my filing on exploitation. It's not fair. Since my Dad passed in 12/2011 Jay has done nothing but drink, get money from Mom, take out what he had for his retirement, blown money foolishly. He is Bi-Polar. I do not have a lot of money but when I sell my house I have $200,00 equity which I earned, I want this nightmare over before my health suffers anymore...
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Adult Protective Services can be helpful in insuring that there is no immediate jeopardy for the parent with dementia but you must get guardianship if you are planning long term. Getting APS involved can cause more problems. If they can't figure out what or who is a threat to the parent they may opt to have the state seek guardianship. If that happens the state Office of the Public Guardian does not want to manage all of the risks that can be involved with someone they have guardianship over and will put the person in a nursing home. This is much easier for the Office of the Public Guardian.
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Power of Attorney is worthless when someone has dementia. You must have Guardianship if you wish to make choices for your parent. Guardianship can be compared to parental rights over a minor child. This is a very difficult route to pursue and depending on the state requirements vary. You must prove mental incompetence and the need for guardianship. It's never a fast process and can be an expensive process.
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Adult Protection Services have been called several times. They say that Mom has made her own decisions. My half brother is fighting me on exploitation charges now. He hired an attorney as of today, and I have to hire attorney. Mom has co-signed on his house as he caused a divorce after his 17 year marriage. He beat up his brother over POA. Mom forgets a lot. There is no answer,
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I sign as MPOA for her. But yes I understand that.
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Shannon, if your brother is POA he HAS to sign on behalf of your mother. If not, YOU are guaranteeing payment. Is she on Medicaid? Or perhaps you should have signed your mother's name by you. Something.
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GardenArtist...well part of it maybe because my mom was living in Canada, so all of her financial dealings at the time are up there.

The bank added him to the mortgage's (she had two condo's....no real money though because she mortgaged them to the hilt a couple of years ago), and he was able to sell the one and the other is on the market ... without my mother. In fact she can't sign any documents and they be legally standing because of her condition as far as Canada goes, and I've experienced this here in Colorado as well. Maybe i just don't understand some of it, but no one has let my mom sign any legal papers for her care etc and I have to sign them.

When my brother sold the one condo the check was made out into my mom's name, but he had signing authority on all of it, including the bank accounts and mom does not any longer.

Of course we have two diagnosis and there is no doubt about her condition and of course no one is contesting it. Mind you as I said...there is no real gains as far as financial in this case either...she owes more then she has equity as far as bills and such and we have been supplementing with our own money.

Does that make sense? Sorry I'm not sure I've made much sense this week. I just put mom into a home this week so coming down from all the stress.
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Shannon, you stated "as POA my brother changed all the bank accounts and his name went on the mortgages etc so no one including mom could mess with it."

If you mean your brother became a co-mortgagor (co-borrower), he could only do that with permission of the mortgagee (the lender). They approve any change of responsibility AND LIABILITY for the mortgage.

If you mean he became a guarantor of the mortgage, that still would require bank involvement and preparation of their standard documentation. However, guarantees aren't standard for residential mortgage (unless they're high value or perhaps jumbo mortgages, with which I don't have that much experience).

When you write that no one including your mother could "mess" with the mortgage, as I understand what you wrote, the bank would have to release your mother from her obligations as mortgagor. That means your brother now would have sole obligation for maintaining and paying the mortgage. That also would create obligations for maintaining the house and paying the taxes.

Is that what happened? I'm curious because this is really an interesting financial situation.
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We were never able to charge siblings with a crime, it is considered domestic not criminal, go figure, that is why I am angry, about this issue. If you forget for a minute, that it is your mom or family, somebody coming to her house and stealing $90,000.00 would be charged embezzlement, grand larceny, etc. We even went to the DA to make a report...nothing...
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Declaring incapacity due to dementia, all you need is a neurologist to refer you to the person for the test. They administer the test... her primary care can also sign off on it, then you go to court with a petition with the test results with her and they can attempt to have her sign papers but they won't mean a thing...guardianship, it is a sure thing...
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Well that is the other thing...as POA my brother changed all the bank accounts and his name went on the mortgages etc so no one including mom could mess with it. Of course it is really only my brother and I so not a big deal, but she was messing up her finances and almost lost everything because of it, so it stopped that. They can't take money from your bank account...and as long as you keep track of what you are doing and the money is going to her care (in case they take legal action) you should be all good.
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JPMaley,
You are fortunate that you are doing the care AND have POA's. I would hire a geriatric care manager to do an assessment of their needs. Get doctor letters of the care necessary and best for their situation. An impartial third party and doctor letters will provide you expert evaluation of your situation and the capacity of parents. You may need it down the road.
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I thought that if the person in question (mom) had a diagnosis of dementia or any disorder or disease that did not allow her to make rational choices by two Dr's it would make anything legal like transfer of POA etc, illegal or void due to incompetence. Basically if they did something like coerce your mom into doing this you could right away take it to court and make it void? If your siblings did this then wouldn't they be charged with a crime? I don't know...I've never had to challenge this, but it would make sense I'd think.
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Adult Protective Services will not do anything. I called them when mom's grandson can and stole her car, changed beneficiaries at the bank to his name. When they showed up and 'interviewed' her, they just told me she can do whatever she wants with her belongings. They had me in tears. I have no idea if they contacted my nephew. I just pray that they stay away from her, because anytime they show up something is missing. POA really does not mean much. It lets you hide things from her. That is what I decided to do. I moved her savings, cd's, all money into another bank, so they can't visit the bank with her.
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You need to have proof why you do not want them near your mom and will have to go to court. Also as others mentioned, have a good attorney to help you through this.
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If there are problems with family members attempting to manipulate and get money from the patient, Guardianship is the only answer. POA's can be changed in a snap, anytime. Guardianship can only be changed by a Judge. I have been a Guardian for 20 years for my sister.
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If you are her medical and financial POA, then you really don't need a guardianship. If you decide to go ahead with the guardianship, check with your local Area Agency on Aging or Bureau of Senior Services for a guardianship handbook which will explain guardianship. Whether you are a POA or a guardian, you still must make decisions based on what your mother would want/the kind of decisions she would have made or you must act in her 'best interest'. Staff at the AAA can answer any questions you have about guardianship and can also relay information regarding POA and duties. As POA (depends on how it's written) if you mom is not capable to managing her affairs, you should have the legal right to buy and sell property, manage her bank accounts, income etc. as well as make medical decisions and apply for services that she could benefit from. I find it helps to speak with someone in person, the staff at the AAA will be able to assist you in exploring options. If your brothers continue with their exploitation (or try to), you can contact Adult Protective Services. Sometimes just a visit or a call from an APS worker (to your brother(s)) will be enough to stop their behavior.
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Find a good elder law lawyer and ask for the pros and cons of getting guardianship. If you have a durable POA and an advanced directive you should be able to protect her financial assets and assist her with health care decisions.

The brothers who are "borrowing" large sums of money from your mother should be easily stopped. Have nothing which can be used to write them a check in her area. It is shameless to take money from an elder with memory issues while they may need that money for their own care before they pass away.
If you live with your mother, just monitor their contact so they can't take advantage of her. If they are unable to use mom as an ATM machine they will likely not be coming around at all. Just users. Sad.

Good luck.
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I tried a Restraining order would not work in Vermont, as they see no immediate danger. The judge does not to keep siblings away...There are obligations, that is why I have not done this sooner, but I have no choice. I have spoke to 3 good Elder attorneys.
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Think very very carefully before taking on a guardianship. Seek very good legal advice regarding what your obligations will be.
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A Legal Restraining Order?
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I would like to know the same thing. I took Mom to Florida for 5 months to get away from all the greed. My 2 half brother's have "borrowed" over $90,000. I am her POA and it does no good if they cry and beg and Mom gives in. They called her in Florida , one even had the Police there 3 times. I am currently going for Guardianship. Mom has memory issues too. I have been physically hit, beat and slapped by one half brother who refuses to give up. Currently in court on the last throw on the floor. He has lost everything due to drinking. Furthermore has cried and brain washed Mom one day to go to a lawyer and get POA. Luckily, I got wind of it and had Mom put a stop, she did not remember going. If your story is anything like mine, and you want peace of mind.....Go for it ...
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