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Please don't take this as me being cold and unfeeling, but I believe that our family is at the point where we need to make sure our futures are safe and secure. Grandma is currently in a NH with the possibility of being sent home if she continues to progress in her physical therapy. There are suspicions of A/D, but no diagnosis. Since she has been in the nursing home, we have discovered that a particular family member has been receiving lots and lots of money (20 years and no contact but all of the sudden they are best friends....). Her POA has taken control of her checkbooks and credit cards to prevent this from happening for now. She only has enough money saved to pay for about 6 months of NH after Medicare runs out. We are concerned that if they send her back home, the leechers will be back and will drain her accounts very quickly. She is aware that we are concerned about her financial situation, but she does not care and still thinks she needs to "pay people who visit her." None of this money is coming to our family, but yet we are expected to take care of her. We cannot financially or physically take care of her if she requires NH care. So my question is this - who is responsible to pay for her care once her money runs out? The NH made the POA sign a form saying he is responsible for her, but he does not want to be responsible for her, especially when she is blatantly giving her money away to everyone but the POA. Not getting money from her is not really the issue. It is more that she is giving her money away to people who are basically stealing from her and all the while she is treating her POA like crap and then expecting him to financially support her when her money runs out. What legal obligations does her POA (or her immediate family) have when her money runs out? How do we protect ourselves from whatever happens as a result of her selfish behavior (please note, the selfish behavior is not new, we just added the A/D symptoms to it!)?

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bbird—This is a convoluted mess. I’m so sorry this has happened to your family. I hope you recover the missing money and if you don’t, may Medicaid go after your greedy relatives. I would be interested to know how it ends.
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I was responding to the idea that "it's her money so let her do what she wants with it..." It may be true that there is no practical enforceable legal requirement to help, the realistically the issue of moral guilt is real and should be considered too.
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I agree with STAARR - dig your heels in - I had to say that I would have mom charged with elder abuse against dad & my husband [on advice of the nurse coming in to do her insulin shots] & that the hospital either kept her or put her on jail ward!

That's when they knew I meant business - it seems harsh but that is what you might need to think [pre-think is best] when dealing with these people

NOTE - NEVER LEARN TO DO DIABETES SHOTS because then they will lean over backwards to help if you can't - someone advised me to never learn so that we stayed up front whereas my cousin & her whole family learnt so they were deemed not in crisis because they all knew how to deal with it & were farther down the list for help
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I'm going to take a little different view here -

If your grandmother gifted her house to your father - even though it was ten years ago - might it be fair to think/expect him to provide her with some financial assistance at this time? Yes - a gift should be a gift, without obligation. And yes, she's in a mess of her own making by giving away what money she had to another grandson. But is that not all that different than her giving away her house - which must have done monetary value. If grandma still owned that house would it not be available to sell and then put towards her care? Just saying...
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bbird,
You initially posted "The NH made the POA sign a form saying he is responsible for her, but he does not want to be responsible for her."
This is something you really want to discuss with your attorney. If you are talking about financial responsibility: If the POA signed as "Mom Jones, by Son Jones, POA," or as "Son Jones, POA for Mom Jones," then he obligated only her money. If he just signed "Son Jones," then he obligated his own money to pay her bill if she doesn't pay it.
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bbird,
You initially posted "The NH made the POA sign a form saying he is responsible for her, but he does not want to be responsible for her."
This is something you really want to discuss with your attorney. If you are talking about financial responsibility: If the POA signed as "Mom Jones, by Son Jones, POA," or as "Son Jones, POA for Mom Jones," then he obligated only her money. If he just signed "Son Jones," then he obligated his own money to pay her bill if she doesn't pay it.
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I'm so sorry you're going through this. Just breathe. One step at a time. Whatever happens you'll be ok. Step one; consult an attorney. Step two; have her cognitive state evaluated by her doctor. You can discuss your concerns with the doctor before the visit without her present. If he evaluates her as having A/D or another dementia coupled with poor financial decisions, could be useful tools for your attorney.
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"No one is entitled to an inheritance, BUT it is a reasonable concern that you might be forced to provide financially for someone who gave their money away and is now looking to you."

No one can be forced to take care of an elder if they don't want to do it. There are some filial responsibility laws on the books in some states, but even those are only enforced in rare circumstances.

More people should be refusing to take care of elders when they don't want to/can't do it.
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No one is entitled to an inheritance, BUT it is a reasonable concern that you might be forced to provide financially for someone who gave their money away and is now looking to you.
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It sounds like you have 2 different issues going on. One is the NH saying she can go home and the other is how to pay for long term care.

As far as the NH goes, they must have a safe discharge plan in place. If that requires that she have someone 24/7, then they cannot force you to provide that care and cannot send her home unless someone signs that they are willing and able to provide that care. Keep reiterating that it would be an unsafe discharge if they sent her home. Trust me that you may need to literally dig your heels in on this one. I had to do it at both the hospital and the NH, despite my mother having multiple fractures from falling at home.

As for paying for care, I believe each state's Medicaid rules are different. I know here in NY there are more than one type of Medicaid. The one that provides home care does not require a 5 year look back period, while the one that provides nursing home care does. However, the one requiring the 5 year look back allows up to $14,850 in resources before a penalty period would be assessed.

Good luck with everything!! Let us know how it turns out.
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The change has brought out what was hidden due to her being in usual abode -

Good luck on doing the financial reconstruction - I found my mom's information in very unusual places but I needed to go back to 1973 for information on stocks' original values - 1 was a print out on back of xmas letter which was invaluable

You seem to have a sense of humour & looking at the lemonade not the lemons while dealing with the auditting will help you - good luck
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Thanks for the advice all! Here are the answers to some of the questions you asked - She lives in the house rent free because it was originally her house. She gifted it to my father in law like 10 years ago. She used to run an HR Block, so she used to be really good at taxes/money! The POA is my father in law (Grandma's son). I did speak with FIL about "evicting" her and that is something that we are going to discuss with the lawyer, but that will be a painful act for him to do. Until GM went into the hospital, there really wasn't anything that we could do about how she was handling her $$. She told us that she was paying this person $10 an hour to help her around the house. She happened to leave a bank statement on her desk a few months ago and I saw multiple $500 checks in one month written to the person. I told FIL about it and he was pissed, but said there wasn't much we could do. The day she went into the hospital, we removed all checkbooks/credit cards/debit cards/cash from her possession. The bank is aware of the situation and is supposed to contact POA immediately if she calls them. I also check the accounts online every few days. Investment broker is also aware and is supposed to call POA immediately if she calls him. I will be honest - there are a lot of emotions attached to this situation. She has not been a nice woman to my FIL, MIL, or my husband her entire life. She prefers her other Grandson and apparently now the moocher. Her Will pretty much gives FIL whatever is left after the taxes and bills are paid (which won't be much). It is not about the money for us though (there isn't much left to fight over anyway!). She has been giving her money away to everyone but us for years and we refuse to play the game required to get the money. The problem is that she can no longer live on her own. She has given away all of her money and only has enough to pay for about 6 months of NH. She expects my FIL to just make it work so she can come home (which from her means that he is expected to pay for it). For the last 5 weeks, she has berated, insulted, and humiliated my FIL and MIL for everything they have said and done. My FIL asked my husband and I to help him out and make sure he does a good job with this because he is so overwhelmed. She is in the NH because the hospital put here there not because we put her there. We visited her last night and she is still too delusional to come home (i.e. is convinced that she goes to the basement a few times a day in the one-floor NH). She still requires 24 hour supervision which she can only afford for 2 months. We do anticipate her living longer than 6 months, so the lack of money on her part is a problem. I have been working on reconstructing her financial records for the past 5 years so that we can show them to the lawyer. It is daunting, but sadly my auditor background finds is slightly interesting :/
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You are going to require the services of an elder law attorney. Medicaid has very strict rules, including the 5 year look back period. That entails having ALL bank records/documentation going back 5 years. That alone would be a daunting task.
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This posting raises several questions for me.
1. What is your relationship with the POA?
2. What oversight have you exerted while GM was spending her assets?
3. What actions have you taken to prevent family members from taking cash, etc.
4. Are you sure this isn't about your inheritance?
You may find these questions insulting. But I read a substantial amount of victimization in your postings.
Immediate steps you should take.
1. Get a diagnosis from a medical professional recommended by your elder law attorney.
2. Document the losses from her accounts caused by family members.
3. Have the POA set up an account with low withdrawal limits. Tell a bank officer about the situation.
4. Investigate a restraining order against the mooching family member.
5. Don't employ revisionist history when meeting with the elder law attorney. A good many families find themselves in your position. It is hard to undo the past.
6. Figure out a game plan if she can't qualify for Medicaid immediately.
Good luck and try to be calm in this situation, as difficult as it may be.
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Get a real estate agent to give you an accurate value of app't's rental potential - then send a 'bill for back rent' to P.O.A. - don't expect this to be paid but it might be a way to balance off what the unscrupulous family member did - at least ask lawyer about this - so that in effect that person took your rent money -

Why was she there rent free? - I'm sure even just paying her utilities would have been a help for you - was that ever written down? - otherwise 'evict' her for non-payment of rent so she literally has no where to come back to - then rent it out to someone else in case it ever goes to court you can prove it as a source of income Granny 'robbed' you of - maybe that family member will have to pay you.... poetic justice? - good luck
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Everyone has given you great advice. I would agree with drkernisan - get her assessed. You need that diagnosis to prove she can no longer handle her finances.

Years ago my mother also did foolish things with her money, she would not remember who she wrote checks to etc. The Alzheimer's foundation told me that I could not do anything without a diagnosis and it would be her word against mine.

Get the diagnosis, it's great the POA is meeting with an attorney. The attorney will guide you on how to proceed.
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I am a doctor, not an attorney. But I have talked with elder law attorneys about situations like this.

My understanding is that if you have real reason to be concerned about her mental capacities, or about the possibility of someone financially taking advantage of her, the POA doesn't have to give her the checkbook back right away.

She will probably be mad at you and/or the POA. But my understanding is that it's reasonable for a POA to refuse to comply with an older person's request -- at least for the short-term -- if you have good reason to believe her cognition is in question and that her actions might harm her, especially if you:
a) make prompt plans to have her and the situation assessed, and
b) don't do anything sketchy or very significant with her money (e.g. sell off her investments) while you maintain control during this period of assessment.

In particular, sounds like you will need to get her capacity to manage her finances assessed, and possibly her capacity to manage other aspects of her life.

I would also recommend you notify her usual doctor of your concerns re her capacity. And follow up with an elder law attorney as soon as you can. Good luck!
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Some states do have laws making children financially responsible for their parents' care. I have never heard of this applying to grandchildren.
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If grandma has money to give the moocher then she has money to pay for in home help. Period. You and POA need an elder law attorney like yesterday. Call your state bar association immediately and ask them for the names and telephone numbers of elder law and trusts and estates attorneys in your area. And take the POA document as well as your grandmother's checkbook and ATM withdrawals that you've already gone through with you. Do not show up at the attorney's office unprepared.
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Why do you have to give her back the checkbook? It should be handled by the POA.
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BBird205
I'm so glad you are making arrangements to see an elder attorney. I understand the stress you must feel knowing her release from the rehab is imminent and you have no way to care for her. Many people face this deliema daily with vulnerable elders. You are a step ahead in that one of you has a POA and there are funds available for temporary care until long term arrangements can be made. Filing for Medicaid and getting it through successfully the first time is key. Timing, diagnosis from drs, extensive records, etc.
It's a tough road and each persons is different depending on extenuating circumstances such as the moocher in GM case.
An attorney can help you focus on exactly what steps you need to take for your unique circumstances and your state laws.
You mention having to give her back the bank book. This is another reason to see the attorney ASAP in order to legally keep the funds from her access. The wording of the POA is very important.
You could refuse to pick her up when she is released but she might get the moocher to take her back to her place or to the bank. Legally you may not be able to refuse her entry depending on the occupancy laws of your state. The owner might have to evict her.
There are many legal issues that MIGHT be in play. The POA really needs legal advice. Be sure to come back and let us know how this plays out. We try to learn from one another in this complex world of elder care.
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Grandma does not own anything other than her investment account. She is living for free at the farm. The checkbook has been taken away. As of right now, things are under control. The problem is that if she comes home, we have to give her the checkbook back and her money will be gone very quickly. She cannot afford in-home care. As of right now, it is cheaper for her to stay in the nursing home. She can cover about 6 months of NH or 2 months of in home care (because she requires supervised care right now).
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POA has fiduciary responsibility to grandma and he better get things under control. Take the checkbook away. Set a daily limit at the bank for the ATM card. Go after the unwelcome family member using an elder attorney. Usually a letter from an attorney will stop bad behavior and may get some money back for your grandmother.

Does your grandma own the farm or is she just living there with you? Use your grandma's money to hire her in-home help.
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The POA is not the person taking the money! It is another unwelcome family member. Grandma does NOT own the house. The POA actually owns the house and it will go in our name eventually, but we didn't want him to do the transfer while Grandma was still living there. It is part of our Transition plan for our farm. We actually have separate apartments, with locks on the doors because we had some privacy issues with her. The original intention was for us to move in with her and help her out when she needed help, but she was an absolute nightmare to live with, hence the completely separate basement apartment. My husband and I cannot take care of her full-time. It takes both of us to run the farm and there is not much time left over to take care of her.
POA is not doing anything wrong. He is just very concerned that she is going to give away all of her money and then expect him to financially support her. The POA and I are going to make an appointment with a lawyer, but until then I was looking to see if anyone had any advice!
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You are like a butterfly whose been caught in the basement of a spider's web. You have "responsibility" for your grandmother but no actual authority, which the POA has.

The POA made a big mistake. Make photocopies of your grandma's checkbook and bank statements. Using a bright yellow highlighter, highlight each and every ATM withdrawal and check made payable to the POA. Take this information to an elder attorney. Only an elder attorney can scare the pants off POA with remedies such as a lawsuit, lien, and wage garnishment if this cannot be resolved amicably.

An elder attorney also can help make sure your grandmother is taken of should the need arise for an attorney to become her trustee.
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All of the relatives will consider you reponsible for her care (probably!), since you are already living in the basement apartment. (Do you pay rent?)

I'd move out as soon as possible!
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She has been living on her own until now. We have an apartment in the basement, so we are here to help her when she falls...or die when she tries to burn the house down (happened twice). POA owns the house, so she has no assets other than her investments. We suspected that this person was taking money from her, so when she went in the hospital, POA asked me to handle her finances. Started seeing lots of large checks written to this person. Also lots of large ATM withdrawals on days this person took her to town to go shopping. Well over 4,000 in checks in the last year. And I'm not even done reconstructing the last year.
As for grandma being selfish, she has been that way her entire life. I understand the A/D can change personalities, but she is 89 and this type of behavior is nothing new. I know that probably sounds cold, but she is a very mean lady and has been her whole life.
My concern is what happens if there are no relatives to take her in if medicaid gives her a penalty period?
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Get an elder attorney well versed in Medicaid for GMs state. Pay for it out of her funds. That's an allowed use of her money because it's for her care. Get guidance on how to go forward with her care.
It's a vulnerable time for her. She may not be able to understand that but at least you have the POA. That should help.
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BBird, sadly, when Grandmother's money runs out she will need to apply for Medicaid [which is differently from Medicare]. Medicaid will pay for her future nursing home care.

BUT... Medicaid will look back through 5 years worth of financial paperwork and see that Grandmother had been giving away her money. NOT GOOD. What will happen is that Medicaid will add up all this give-away money and deduct it from Grandmother's care... thus, Grandmother would need to live with a relative until she is finally accepted by Medicaid. Nursing homes cost around $10k per month depending on where you live. So if Grandmother gave away $30k, that is 3 months. If she gave away hundreds of thousands, then it will be a long wait.

Who has been taking care of Grandmother before she went into rehab? Or has she been on her own? Or was another relative helping out?

How did you find out that another relative has been getting a lot of the money over time?

As for calling Grandmother selfish, please remember she has dementia and this is affecting her thinking. Maybe the dementia had been there for many years, time to have Grandmother diagnosed.
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They are not being helpful at the NH. They told her today that she "could go home." Would not answer our questions on when, so of course she thinks it's tomorrow and anything longer is because we are horrible people. The person who took the money will not give it back and will not help pay her bills if it comes to that. Do you know if there are any legal family obligations to provide for her care?
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