Grandma w/dementia drops hints about finances, but I have no power! Not sure if I should engage with it or not?

margarets - you've GOT to be kidding !! OMGosh !!! Unbelievable !!!!

Even I cannot believe the latest: My grandmother left me a message last Sunday at 9:30am (I only just listened to it today, had an extremely busy week) that started "Margaret, I'm going to fire her today, so do you want to be my power of attorney?" I stopped the message at that point, didn't listen to the rest. It's just too much. It never ends.

Aughhhhh! I've been detaching as much as possible without actually cutting my grandmother off, but she brings up the money issue every time I talk to her. I deflect, change the subject, etc, but still she rambles. Tonight I talked to her and apparently now she believes everything is OK, based on whatever my mother told her. She also told me that my mother blamed me for the whole thing (not really a surprise), that I've been putting ideas in her head. Ummm... no, I didn't make my grandmother leave six messages on my voicemail in one day. My grandmother claimed to have stuck up for me. I told her I did not want to discuss this anymore.

God only knows what version of events she told my mother. What I'm stuck on is why she felt the need to TELL ME about the exchange with my mother. She's said a lot of other toxic insensitive stuff to me as well.

The way all this is going down, I suspect my grandmother of trying to stir up drama, play two sides against each other, all as an attention-seeking ploy. She's a lonely widow, and heaven knows she never learned any healthy ways of relating and communicating. I advised her to discuss her concerns with other people, not just me, like my sister, her friends, the staff at the nursing home, because my getting involved was problematic. I notice she didn't do that. She ONLY talked to me about it.

And now she's whimpering about when I will come to visit. Sorry, what? Spend $100+ plus on a rental car and gas, and the better part of a day, to listen to her toxic slush? Yeah, no, that won't be happening anytime soon.

My grandfather kept my grandmother firmly under this thumb, and now that he's gone, I wonder if her true personality is coming out, and if she might have tendencies along the borderline/histrionic line. Or something.

In any event, her "I love you"s at the end of phone calls and voicemails rings SO hollow. Does she honestly think I buy it?

Minor update: lots more drama and hassle, grandmother chops & changes as some of you predicted, but I've been detaching.

My grandmother has left a bunch of messages on my voicemail. It's now full and can't hold any more messages, which is great! I've been focusing on my studies (test this afternoon) and trying to calm myself. I haven't called her back.

From now on, if the subject comes up (and trust me, I won't be bringing it up or even calling my grandmother that often), my default comment will be "I want no part of this, don't even speak to me about it".

It's crossed my mind that even if my mother is skimming from my grandma's money, maybe it's just compensation for dealing with her.

Ugh. It's still emotionally messy though. Just going by the feelings I'm having, I'm more enmeshed than I realized. And it's all re: a woman I haven't seen face-to-face in 2 months, who lives 70km away! I really feel for those of you caregiving for a toxic relative *in your own house*. Yikes!

While your grandma is in this frame of mind, she could give you a limited POA to deal solely with this. Is she in an assisted living facility, if so, they probably have forms there that can be used.

Margaret, that is great! That took alot for her to do, so make sure you support her, be strong for her, remind her that it is what is best for her. She may need that money someday.

WHOA. I just got a call from the police, about my grandmother! She must have called them! I talked to the officer briefly, but he was clearly (I could hear the dispatch radio) in his car and had to deal with another matter. He supposed to call me back. Anyway, MY GRANDMOTHER ACTUALLY CALLED THE POLICE. This is huge! I now have a case file number and everything, which I can use to nudge things along into a proper investigation. WOW.

Obviously I'm not detaching at this moment, but that tends to happen when the cops call.

Standing, that's crazy.

Big-picture-wise, I think all this is the result of having an aging population and society not seriously preparing for it. Our laws, regulations, etc are WAY behind the social changes that have taken place.

This kills me. There is some obvious shady crap going down here...but you know what, it wouldn't surprise me if she got away with every damn bit of it.

And yet, In my own situation, I've done nothing wrong or taken any advantage of my mother...but now I have the threat of the state taking guardianship, based solely on paying the bills without POA at my mom's request, and my family will probably be nailed to the wall. I freaking love it. .

I'm in Canada, so American rules & laws don't apply. APS doesn't work the same way - though I doubt that third-party reports carry much weight in the USA either, since they often come from people who have hidden agendas. For all the police know, I'm stirring up trouble so that *I* can get PoA and steal my grandma's money.

Margaret, It sounds like a hopeless situation. I would definitely give APS a call, explain she has dementia, if you have not tried this already. Otherwise, it is time for you to leave it alone. When grandma is ready, she will do it. One thing your mother needs to realize is that if grandma has to go on Medicaid, they will complete a very thorough investigation of you mom's finances for the previous five years. Grandma will penalized the amount your mother took prior to Medicaid kicking in. Then what? I doubt mom would pay it back.

glad, I already called the police, a government agency that deals with trustee (PoA) issues, and a couple of senior advocacy organizations, and my grandmother's bank. All have said that they can act upon HER reports immediately. My third-party reports have limited effect.

There is legislation working its way through the system here to tighten up the rules and reporting re: PoAs, but it'll be years before it actually takes effect.

Here the police, even if called do not need to do anything with something like this. However, that law is changing next year, and they are required to take a report. If there is financial exploitation going on you need to call Adult Protective Services, they will investigate maybe regardless of your grandma not wanting to report your mom. If you google adult protective services in Beverly Hills you will find the information that you need. Either leave it alone, or just do it.

Welp, you were all right. My grandmother called me last night and told me that she called her bank. BUT she did not speak to the right person (I gave her the name), just the teller that she is acquainted with, and she did not say the right things. She only asked if any money had been taken out of my grandfather's account, and said nothing about her concerns. She told me she "didn't know" why she did all that.

Then I dropped the p-word: police. I told her that she needed to file a report with the police, that they have special officers trained in elder financial abuse now, etc. And... she totally caved. She doesn't want to "do that' to my mother.

It's occurred to me that those six messages from Saturday were really just an attention-seeking ploy, a way to get me to call her. And then there was a bunch of toxic stuff, like telling me that she was going to give me and my sister some money, but that my mother told her that my grandfather said no to do so. What is the point of telling me that? Later in the conversation she said something about giving me money so that I can "pay the tax on it". Don't know what she is thinking of with that, but again, she didn't need to say it.

It's striking how she is so preoccupied with not upsetting my mother or forcing any consquences on her, but apparently she isn't thinking at all of how any of this drama might affect me.

So, clearly I have to work on disengaging even more. This whole thing is an utter waste of my time and energy. I guess I'll get more practice the next time the crazy calls come in.

Agree with above posts. Start extricating yourself. Give grandmother info she needs to contact lawyer and Canada's center for aging or equivalent for help and advice on how to prevent/report elder financial abuse. Tell grandmother she should contact banks and freeze accounts. The banks can help her set up direct pay to her ALF or whatever housing arrangement she has unless she still lives in her same house.

After that, there isn't more you can do unless GMAIL legally requests POA be changed to you and gm draws up new will for herself. She will have to demonstrate mental competence for this.

Make sure you are emotionally prepared to accept whatever the outcome is, regardless, concentrate on you, your future and building a new life for you sans this dysfunctional bunch you are related to.

Veronica, I'm not in the USA, but Canada. So the laws and taxes and health-care issues are all different.

On the emotional level, you have a very valid point.

Margarets
Don't know how I missed this but have read all the posts and my message is "Step away from the table there is nothing left to win"
There are two things that can happen.
You can report your mother to the IRS, there is a lump sum I believe 13K that your GM can give to your mother in a year. The bank should be able to produce copies of the checks when the time comes and you can remain anonymos but of course Mom will guess but what can she do to you?
The other thing that will happen if Mom has taken all the money and GM needs care which of course mom will be reluctant to provide Medicare/Medicaid will ferret it out and Mom will have to cough it up for a N/H whether she has it or not. Welcome to the world of her having a lien on her house. Everything else including the trust will be frozen. Don't waste your time energy or money on these people. They may be close relatives but do you really want them in your life. Concentrate on grad school and try to forget they even exist ,all they will do is continue to hurt you and the sooner you realize this the better.
What are your motives - to get back at mother? to protect grandma? Why? she doesn't care for you. Get grandma to a lawyer and she will swear your mother is the sweetest caring daughter a mother could ever have and she has no idea why YOU are making all this trouble. Grandpa arranged the POA because he knew he could trust his daughter. Think long and hard Margarets what do you really want. good luck.

Thanks all. I've been making calls and collecting phone numbers for my grandmother to call (some organizations will only deal with seniors directly). I'm aware that my grandmother may chop & change in her attitudes about this. That's why I saved the voicemails - hard evidence.

My grandmother's bank was really great. They seem aware of the issues and were very clear about what they can do and not do.

Bringing a lawyer into all this will be messy. It's a 3-hour round-trip to where my grandmother is, I don't have a car, she doesn't drive. So just getting her into a lawyer's office is a major undertaking. Yippee.

What a mess. What a train wreck of a family!

Wow...you have my hopes and prayers for justice to prevail here. It won't be pretty but let's hope the right things finally happen, and victims have a chance to recover and never be fooled again....hugs and thanks for sharing an update.

Margaret, don't be surprised if grandma changes her mind tomorrow. That is the way denial goes, you do not want to believe the worst about people in the family that you are supposed to love.

check out the AVVO website for lawyer ratings and referrals. You can even pose questions and receive responses that may help you select a good one.

Major horrible update - after being holed up in the lab all weekend doing school work, I find SIX messages on my voicemail from my grandmother. In them she says stuff like "I think she's screwing me into the ground and I'm just sick about it" and "can you take time off work to drive me to the lawyer? I'll pay for everything" and "please call, I need you" and "I'm going downstairs for a drink, I need it".

I've called repeatedly since I got the message about 40 mins ago, but she hasn't answered. She's probably visiting someone in the ALF. I'll keep trying.

So, good news - she's finally gotten a clue that my mother is cleaning her out. I saved those voicemails so I now have some good evidence to warrant a legal intervention of some kind. I'll make calls about it tomorrow.

But, something pretty bad must have happened though. Like a HUGE withdrawal of cash. I have no idea what would be involved in getting it back. My mother runs through money like there is no tomorrow. And you know what? It's not even the 4-month anniversary of my grandfather's death! She has wasted NO time.

Like any dysfunctional family, guess who gets called on to clean up the mess? The Hero Child. A role I never asked for. A thankless role. Bleghhhh.....

Although I do sort of hope it all comes out and at least a few people finally see through my mother's facade. Others are way too deep in denial to be swayed even by this. Argh!

Ode to margarets

Mom's bad behavior,
I'm sad to say,
Is her undoing;
To margarets, "YAY"!

Bleggghhhhh.... I've had two calls from grandmother today (Sunday). Normally my grandmother doesn't call me as often as twice a YEAR (because as the younger generation I'm supposed to do all the calling, is the unspoken rule). Now that she's a lonely widow, she has more need for attention, and I'm supposed to step up to fill in that gap too.

The first call came at 2pm. The second at 6:30pm. On the second voicemail, she didn't hang up right after she finished her message, so it recorded her muttering "let's see if she does" (as in: let's see if she calls me back). That comment was probably made to my mother.

Ummm, hello, it's the weekend, maybe I'm out somewhere, doing something? I get a 4.5 hour window to call her back and if I fail to do so, she starts the snarking? She's already given me excellent reasons to want nothing to do with her, and it seems she only wants to dig herself in deeper.

Welp, she's in for a surprise she won't like. She's going to find that I won't initiate calls, won't return her calls in under 48 hours and will immediately terminate any call where she says insensitive or nasty things.

She's going to slag me off behind my back anyway so I don't see why I should put a lot of time or effort into my relationship with her.

Thanks Jinx. You're right - I don't have to be a saint. And I'm only online venting - not saying this to my actual family.

Thinking it over, I think this is the problem: I've been massively triggered by all this contact with my dysfunctional family. I've had more contact with more of them in the last 5 months than I have in the last 10 years. It's obvious that there has been ZERO improvement in the dysfunctionality. The only thing that has changed is that I'm healthier and more aware, so I could see the dysfunction much more clearly.

So, I think what's going to cure this recent freak out is what cured it before: time and distance. In a way, the recent experiences were a good lesson, i.e. that my coping strategies have been spot on all these years.

As for my grandmother & her money, it's too bad so sad.

Well, the easiest way would be to have a sudden religious conversion where you develop the personality and enlightenment of a saint. Not likely to happen to any of us, though! I, too, want your grandmother to reap what she has sown, and I've never met her!

Maybe a few phrases might help. Inside your head, try this one from AA and Al Anon: "I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, and I can't control it." Aloud, try repeating, "You know, you have to speak to my mother if you want things to change." Be gentle, calm and factual, while keeping yourself on the outside of the circus. If they are no longer pulling your strings, it will be easier to let go of some of the anger. Hold onto some of it, because it protects you.

If you don't have or want a therapist, try an Al Anon group. Put 5 or 10 dollars in the basket, sit back and listen. You want to learn how to detach with love from the people whose craziness is catching. Some groups are not good groups. If you get a bad vibe, try a different group, because they aren't all alike.

Best wishes for you to be the one to break the cycle.

(This is a new-ish question, but I'm putting it here for context.)

Since last weekend I've been really overwhelmed with resentment. The toxic stuff on the weekend was bad enough, but it's really been going on for months. I cut my grandmother a bit of slack because of the stress she's been under, but now that it's apparent that she *chose* me as a *target*, I kind of hate her guts.

In general in the last fews years I've been realizing just how dysfunctional my grandparents really are. (It makes sense - my mother had to get it from somewhere.) I'd even say they were abusive, through their inaction when action was clearly called for. Then there is the whole issue of my grandfather having a problem keeping his hands where they belong, if you catch my drift, in the last several years. And now the abuse is continuing in a weird way.

There is a spiteful part of me that actually WANTS my grandmother's financial crisis to actually hit, so I can have the opportunity to say "you reap what you sow".

I know - it's horrible, but there it is. How do I get past it?

Good riddance, you finally seen the writing on the wall, realized they're not going to stand still for you doing anything, that they're toxic and dysfunctional and only continue going on and on and on to drag you further and further into their dysfunctionality. You are better off moving on without them. Go to grad school with a clear conscience and have a nice life!

Welp, I know what I'm going to do about my grandmother's financial situation: nothing! I just got back from seeing her and it was a horror show. She mentioned the missing/stolen cheques again, and in the same conversation, told me that she has been giving my mother money every week because she's been "so good" and has "helped with everything". She also told me that she will let my mother keep the money from the sale of the house.

That made my head spin!!!! She's GIVING MORE MONEY to someone she thinks is ripping her off???? I washed my hands of it at that point. I will never spend another moment listening to my grandmother talk about all this. I have already spent HOURS doing that, plus researching and planning and thinking.

I think she feels she has to give all this money to my mother to keep her sweet, so she doesn't abuse the financial and legal power she has over my grandmother. Kind of like handing over your wallet to a mugger so as not to risk getting beaten up too.

My gma was generally very toxic this visit. E.g. she sniped at me a bit because I hadn't brought back some of her bedding that I took with me last visit (her washer won't hold comforters and such but mine will) even though the reason it's taking so long is I'm trying to get out some tough stains and it'll take a few washes. (I'm not going to bother with it now.) TWICE she mentioned how her great-grandson (my nephew) is very bright and doing well at university but is struggling financiallly, and BOTH times I suggested that she help him out since there seems to be enough money. Both times her response was to mumble and then abruptly change the subject. That disgusted me. She goes on and on about all the money she is getting, even saying she's now "rich", yet she can't spring for her great-grandson's university education? Yuck.

She also slagged off some of her other great-grandchildren behind their backs. I think I can assume she does the same about me.

AND - I cooked dinner for 7-9 people three nights in a row this visit (big family gathering) and she didn't thank me ONCE.

You'd think all this rotten behaviour is due to her dementia, but I don't think so, because I've noticed that she is alert enough to be extremely careful about when she brings up this topic. It doesn't come out randomly with others present; she waits until she has me alone. The very moment she does - boom! Someone steps out of the room or a car pulls out of the driveway, and off she goes. She's THAT precise, so it's not dementia. But she is being very, very stupid, because I am truly the ONLY person who might have advocated for her if something went wrong. But that's done. She is just too toxic and has yanked my chain too many times.

Just to update: I heard back from the relevant government agency. They gave me a couple of ideas but made it clear that they are a "last resort" option, and they only get involved when there is a clear risk, evidence to back it up, etc. But they made a note of the conversation in case things get to that stage. I'll see if my grandmother brings the issue up this weekend when I visit, and whether she is willing to go on the record (e.g. let me video her expressing her concerns and let me make copies of documents etc). Otherwise I will let the chips fall where they may.

Just to clarify, in my jurisdiction, it's not as simple as making a phone call to an elder abuse hotline and trusting that an investigation will take place. The one government agency that has the power to act is overburdened and I can't even get them to return my calls. The ONLY effective way to deal with the situation is get a lawyer and go to court for an order for a "passing of accounts" (that is the term used here). That is likely to take several months if not more.

Anyway, I've pretty much decided to do nothing. The final criteria will be whether I can get my grandmother to go on the record with her concerns. If not, forget it. I will tell her so point-blank and I will also tell her that if a crisis erupts later (i.e. her money is all gone) I won't help her then, either. I won't be responsible for a situation I did not create.