My Grandfather's wife has POA and is placed in a long term facility unjustly. He does not need to be in there. Any advice?

Sit down with her and offer to care for him in your home. If he's "with it," ask him if he'd like to come live at your house. See if she would be willing to let you do that.

You cannot force her to take care of him herself.

She insists that would not work because he "needs 24/7 care" and I have to work. He does not need 24/7 care. She is saying he has dementia and is incontinent. He has been incontinent for over a year but has always managed that himself. I'm going to see him tomorrow I just know as a former CNA the nurses will most likely not be able to tell me much info. I'm pretty sure the whole dementia thing is a way to get him in there but he has NEVER showed any signs of confusion or frustration/ mental changes. I appreciate your response Maggie. Bless you.

kkhall143, there has to be something more going on then a 70+ year old having knee surgery. One isn't moved from rehab to long term care without some type of serious medical issues. Really now, your grandfather's wife is telling the doctors what is wrong and they are going along with it?

Have you been to the long term care and spoke with the nurses/doctors/rehab techs? What do they say? That is if they can give you the information. Sometimes with surgery the anesthesia can kick start dementia. Maybe that happened with your grandfather.

Could your grandfather's wife be able to lift your grandfather from the bed to the wheelchair to the toilet? How old is your grandfather's wife? If she is a senior herself, that becomes almost impossible for her to even think of doing that without hurting herself. Could she care for him 168 hours a week? Could you volunteer a shift of time each day to help him out if you are able to bring him home?

Well, if grandpa truly is mentally competent he should be able to change his poa if that is what he wants. How long have he and his wife been together? You say he was afraid she would "do this to him", does that mean he wishes to end the marriage?
Even without going that far a poa can not force a competent adult to live in a nursing home against their own desires, that can only be done if they have a guardianship and/or they have been deemed mentally incompetent. Something to consider though:
Those in the early (and even later) stages of dementia can seem perfectly fine to the casual visitor (as a CNA you should know all about showtiming)
Most nursing homes don't accept people who don't belong there
Doctors would definitely listen to the concerns of a spouse/caregiver, but probably would not make a diagnosis based on that alone
As Maggie and FF point out, his wife is not obligated to ruin her own health by trying to care for him, and although he may not need intensive 24 hour nursing care he probably needs more help than you could give him if you work full time.

A 70yo man who is as sharp as you are describing gets to decide for himself where he is going to live, and whether he is going to stay in the nursing home. Being a spouse with a POA doesn't make it possible to force captivity at a nursing home. There has to be some service he needs that she can't provide, and the reason can't be 'dementia' by her own and only assessment. There is certainly a "the rest of the story" here.

There is definately a "more to the story" my grandfather has been married and divorced to this woman 3x. She is in her late 40s and has her own slew of mental issues. She is addicted to persciption meds and sleeps majority of the day and is on Facebook all night. She is definately after his money as he has worked his entire life to live comfortably. Thats not really my concern. I didnt want to mention that since I dont want to make it seem as if Im bitter and making her out to be an evil person. I just want my grandfather out of the nursing home. He does not want or NEED to be there. He told me today he wants to go home and is very upset he is staying there. She just tild him yesterday when they moved him from the rehab unit. As far as his doctors or nurses go Im not sure what they have to say. Im going up there tomorrow. My aunt and cousin called my mother today to express their feelings of him staying there and they feel the same way I do. Its breaking my heart that he has worked his ass off his whole life to be put in a home when he's mentally sharp, while his wife in her manic behavior is having the entire house renovated! My mother is moving to Houston and she puts my Gramps in a home! Again this has nothing to do with money. I just dont want him to be in prison. She states this is a "temporary" thing and she will try it for a month. I know that is a lie. As far as her convincing the doctors of keeping him there im not sure. BUT I do know that she personally "shops" around for doctors for herself. She convinces them to complete minor and major sugeries so she can get perscriptions. If they say no she will keep searching for someone who does. So it does not shock me that she states the doctors are supportive of her decision. AGAIN I dont want to make it seem ad if im trying to crucify her because its not about her. My grandfather is my concern. Ive reached out to my local Council on Aging to see whay options I have. Im going to be my grandfathers biggest advocate if nothing else. Right is right and wrong is wrong. I FEEL like what she is doing is a crime, but I KNOW its wrong. Whatever issues they may of had in the past or in their relationship should not matter. She took vows, promised in front of God to take care of him. The very week my mother announces she's going to Houston I find out he's going into long term care. Thats another thing. She wadnt even going to tell us she was moving home. I was on the ohone with him and he said he was going to another room because they told him the one he was staying in was for people who just get out of the hospital. He said this is a bigger room and I'll be in there myself. As soon as he said that I already knew what was happening. I didnt say anything bc I didnt want to upset him. The next day we talked and he was pissed because they tild him he wasnt leaving. He barely wanted to talk. Im going to see him tomorrow so hopefully he is in a better mood and we can fully discuss whats going on. Im just heartbroken. He does not need to be in there.

And to answer your question; no, she would not be able to do transfer him to the toilet or to bathe him. Before he fell and needed knee sugery he was showing himself, Cutting the grass, walking his and his neighbors dogs. When he went into surgery they found a blood clot in his leg and sent him to rehab. I dont care about their relationship. She plays the part of the concerned housewife. I call bullshit but thats always how its been with them. They have been together since I've been in middle school and im 26 now. My mother gets caught up in arguing with his wife over what she does but I prefer not to be in the drama. My only concern is my Gramps. Bless his heart he does not need to spend the rest of his years in a place where the residents can barely feed themselves. How depressing is that?!? What type of quality of life is that leaving him. There has to be something I can do.

I will be curious to know how this turns out. I am also curious as to why and how he would be in a nursing home or assisted living facility if he doesn't need it. As a medical worker, I'm sure you are familiar with how sometimes patients can put on a good front for a short time, but in private, they are not as they seem.

I know that my loved one would have a good day or a good morning and you could have a normal conversation with her for about an hour, but later she would keep repeating herself. She would describe her day, but it was all a delusion. And then there is the falling down, putting the cable box in the kitchen cupboard, eating spoiled food, not cleaning after toileting, etc. If you weren't there for the entire day, you might miss these things. So there was no way she could be left alone, even for a few minutes.

That is the issue with dementia, if that is what your grandfather has, he will require the same supervision that a toddler would. You may have to spend a lot of time with him to see the entire picture.

kkhall, no matter how nutsoid your step grandmother is, if your grandfather shows no signs of dementia and consistently expresses a desire to leave then the facility cannot keep him against his will. However. What is his plan? Where does he expect to live, and whom does he expect to look after him while he is unable to take care of himself? You?

You can help your grandfather think this through. You can research alternative options for him. But you cannot force his wife to take on a caregiving burden that she is not prepared to accept. So, do you have a practical plan to propose?

This is not sundowners. If my grandfather actually had dementia I could understand hom being in a facility;assisted living, nursing home whatever but just 1 month ago he was showering himself, cutting the grass, washing the car. I understand it may seem as if im in denial that he needs assistance but Im not. Since his surgery he does need help showering but thays because his mobility was effected. An at home health aide one or two hours daily seems like it would help but just because he does not move like he used to shouldnt mean he has to go to a nursing home. I just feel so bad for him. His only daughter is moving. His wife could care less. His sister, daughter, niece, and obviously his granddaughters feel like this is a huge mistake. i just feel like there is sometging i can do. Request another opinion or have a social worker visit him? I just dont know what options we have. As his only grand child with no children its my responsibility to advocate and fight for him. My heart breaks knowing he's in there. Now the place is very very nice but thats not the point.

He has a beautiful home thats in the middle of a full renovation. I think he should get an at home health agency to match him with an aide who can assist in bathing him. I live in a high rise apt myself and my mother is selling her home. I just wish he could be in his own home with his dogs with an aide to pop in n help him shower. Honestly I believe he can still shower himself but he is a fall risk since his surgery.

Ok. So do his sister, daughter, niece and granddaughters between them have any practical plan to propose? You feel he shouldn't have to go to a nursing home. Where, then?

The practical plan is an at home nurse aide.

My dad was doing fine with the ALZ here with us.. until he was NOT.. I swear it was overnight! Go visit him and talk to the people where he is.. you may be surprised. I had myself, hubs and Mom, and we could not manage Dad. If you think you can have your GF live with you, go for it... but please get all the info first from his current medical personal. Good luck!

My grandfather worked his entire life to have a beautiful home in Concord Ohio. Its on a private drive surrounded by trees and other beautiful homes. There should be no question of where he should go. He should go home WITH an aide if needed. I do think an aide would be beneficial but 24 hr care seems rediculous and excessive.

Thank you. I really do appreciate everyones input! God Bless

Interesting how so many of the relatives know exactly your Grandfather's condition without even seeing him at the rehab/long term care facility. Good grief. Each one of the relative needs to visit him at a different time during the day, then compare notes.... then go the next day, do the same thing, then compare notes.... then go a third day to get the complete picture.

My Mom was an active until one day she had a serious fall a month ago. She's had been in rehab for a couple of weeks but she refused to do any physical therapy. Now she is in long term care due to quick onset dementia from a brain bleed caused by the fall.

My Dad is in denial, he really thinks that my Mom can come home. He hasn't seen her when she is in delirium, or when she is constantly picking at the clothes she is wearing or picking at the bedding, or when she is kicking her legs likes she is running a marathon, and when she doesn't make sense talking. He sees her when she is alert, talking, and smiling, or when she is sleeping.

When the family does visit your Grandfather, please let us know the results.

My family has visited my grandfather. GOOD GREIF. Im the only one who hasnt seen him in person but we speak on the phone every day. My aunt, his sister has visited him everyday since his surgery. She called my mother to express her concerns of him staying in there. Again we were not notified he was staying until he told me they were changing his rooms. At that point I notified my mother and she reached out to his wife and it was confirmed he was not going home. I wish there was a way I could articulate his behavior but Im not sure how to describe it other than he has humor, moves around ok, and is aware of current events. He asked me if I heard about Lamar Odom. He shouldnt be in there. Im not sure any other way to say it but any resources or options I anyone knows of would be great. Thank you.

Nursing homes are not motels. You cannot check into one just because you want to, or someone else wants you to. You really have to need their services. Even if the NH were willing to ignore the rules and take someone perfectly healthy, the party paying for that (insurance company, for example) generally objects! And if he is "private pay" then the cost is coming out of his assets, which presumably his wife wants to keep.

As all the other posters have told you, he cannot be held against his will if he is competent. And his wife cannot be forced to care for him in their home. So all that needs to happen is to come up with a plan for release to a place where he will be safe and comfortable. If doctors have ordered "24 hour" care, then he really can not live alone. Other options include a group home, assisted living, independent living in a senior community, with round-the-clock in-home help. (Could he afford that?) or living with a relative and having in-home care.

This "very nice" long term care facility he is in now -- is it actually a skilled nursing facility, or what level of care to they offer? And there certainly may be people there who need help with feeding or who can't talk, or can't dress themselves, or are bedbound. But I'll bet there are many others who seem pretty capable and coherent whose company Grandfather might enjoy.

Please try to reserve judgement until you have a chance to spend time with Grandfather.

My husband, mid-seventies, was showering on this own, cutting the grass, cooking, driving, running errands, and suddenly, very suddenly, he was thrust deep into dementia. It wasn't even a month between the time he was seemingly self-sufficient and when he needed full-time supervision. And when my sisters came to give me a few hours respite they could not figure out what I was talking about. He seemed perfectly normal to them.

I managed to care for him in our home for the entire 10 year journey. One factor is that I was almost 20 years younger than he was. But I could not leave him alone in the house. I could not work outside the home (as you do). He had no mobility issues.

I can understand your heartbreak at seeing your formerly vital and coherent grandfather in a long-term care facility. But I urge you and the other relatives to try to spend a lot of time with him and to talk to the staff. The reason so many of us are suggesting there may be more to this than you currently see is because we have been there, done that, and have the scars to prove it.

Being your grandfather's advocate is an excellent role for you, as soon as you fully understand his needs and his options. I sincerely wish you every success.
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So they have a dysfunctional marriage and everyone in the family dislikes her, but he has no intention of divorcing her.
So what is your plan? Saying he should be in his own home is not a plan, it is a wish.
If he truly wants to leave the NH it is up to him to say so and act upon it. If he asks you for your help you can assist him. If you feel you have some practical advice about where he should live you and he can discuss it and plan a course of action. But I would be very careful about stepping in between him and his wife, that sound like a minefield you would be better off staying out of.

Yes, I do understand that Im not a doctor and it is very common for there to be a sudden change in condition. I am fully aware that being around someone all day, across several days is the best way to judge his behavior. My family has been there everyday. I speak to him everyday. His wife was not going to notify us that this was a permanent placement because she knows this is wrong. His neighbor (a physician himself) stated he would accompany me tomorrow and advised that he cannot be kept there against his will. My grandfather walked his dogs every day so he is very familiar with my family and the past issues he and his wife have had. Im going too see if the doctors or his wife came up with this 24/hr care. Im not passing judgement on anything or anyone. My only concern is my grandfather is safe, happy, and having the quality of life he's worked do hard to have. I just dont understand why at home health care is not a better option. I'll have more information tomorrow when I go see him.

Yes i agree. I dont want anything to do with their personal drama. Not my circus, not my monkey. So as far as asking about his intentions of divorce I'd rather not ask at all. They have been divorced and remarried more times than should be allowed. I just dont understand why him living in his own home is a wish. A home health aide would be able to go to the house and assist with showers. He takes his medicine by himself on time. Cooks on his own and exercises believe it or not. His wife does not need to care for him. Its almost laughable because he takes care of her. I dont care about the whole family disliking her because its always been this way. We are cordial.

And although I know nursing homes are not motels there is a lot of power behind the all mighty dollar. I think money can be very persuasive. She convinces doctors all the time to perform unnecessary procedures for medicine. If one says no she will keep searching until one says yes. While id like to think that is not the case here it has crossed my mind. Im aware it may seem as if im paranoid or emotional but Im just concerned. When too many coincedences pile up you start to think there may be alterior motive. What that is im not sure nor do I care to know. I just want my grandfather to be happy and live as he should

Good for you to go get more information. But you may be surprised to find nobody works on Saturday, so learn what you can about the situation but you could prepare to make some appointments for next week if they will talk to you. They might not talk to you because its "medical information" and they have to work within HIPPA. But as staff comes into his room you will see what they are doing for him and you may be able to ask them what he needs. Grandpa will be free to tell you all about it, and to answer all your questions as best he can. If a contingent of his sister, daughter, granddaughter ask for a famiiy meeting to be scheduled (including the social worker and nursing director) you may be able to find out more next week. The wife would likely be notified to come as well. Just an idea.

Thank you Kathy, i appreciate your response. I meeting with the social worker and ALL of our family sounds like a great step in the right direction. I just want the best for him.

Just to update everyone. I went to see my grandfather and he looks amazing. He had color and gained weight since his knee surgery. He takes himself to and from the bathroom himself. When i spoke to his wife she said everytime she picks up his clothes they are wet. I was not able to speak to a doctor or nurse but his aides told me he is not incontinent and they do not assist him with toileting or showering. One of the male techs will walk with him down to the spa and he showers himself. I asked for a family meeting where we all can speak with his primary nurse and see where he is at. I believe a lot of things being told to us are u true so this will help us see exactly what hos nurses and doctors are saying. He is very sure he wants to come home. He said all i do is slp n watch tv here i can do that at home. They dont have him going to therapy anymore, im not sure why but we will find out once we have the meeting. When his wife called me she didnt say anything about dementia and he still seemed to be in his right mind. Im not sure if that was something that was just to my mother but again ill find out at the meeting. Thank you all again for your input. God bless.

kkhall, if and when your grandfather does go back to his current home, please keep us up to date with his progress. We are all curious how he is doing.

Absolutely, when I get updates I'll be sure to post. God bless!

Since you are so stressed, leave the decisions to your grandmother as when one has a POA, one has all the power. If she states she cannot care for your grandfather at home, then she can't. They are married to each other, and you are a granddaughter who has little say in their matters. Just wish them well and visit your grandfather when you can. He will not be "imprisoned" and as a former nurse I resent your implications that healthcare staff will mistreat him.

Kkhall, he looks good, and maybe that is an indicator he has good care that he did not have at home. I know you are angry with his wife, but is she taking care of herself and the house ok? It does sound very much like he could manage in an assisted living facility rather than skilled nursing, unless there are a lot of medications he would have to take completely on his own. Home health aides can be an answer, but the expense can be high and they can't necessarily be there for every time he needs help getting up or falls. Having enough cognition to converse and stay on top of some current things is a blessing but it might not be enough to truly live independently.

Have you had any chance to go to his home and see how things really are there currently?