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I am guessing this topic has come up and I did find something in November, but we are further along now.


My 90 yo mother lives in an independent living facility which is attached to an assisted living and memory care. She got her first COVID vaccine does yesterday, I think her IL facility got in on an early wave as it was part of the assisted living, I don't know. Nonetheless, I was happy as I had been calling her doctor and it seem parents of my friends who live on their own are not getting information on when they as octogerians can get it.


Anyway, my mom, a religious person herself said other religious residents are choosing not to get the vaccine. I in part respect their reasons, but would think when you enter a facility like that, you know you are giving up many of your rights and it should be required. I live in an HOA and there are many rules imposed on me that I would otherwise not like.


If you don't like it, you can find other living arrangements or maybe there are other senior facilities who cater to people like that.


As is, there is a very sweet lady living right across the hall from my mom who is very good to my mom, but she is deciding not get vaccine. I guess I am a bit concerned, as even though my mom got it, I think the more the better, especially in senior living.


If there is a thread on this you can refer me to it, otherwise, are vaccines required at many such facilities? I am for freedom of the individual, but if a private facility makes such requirements, you as a private individual are free not to live there.

If she is Catholic, the Pope said it is a "moral and ethical OBLIGATION" to take the vaccine and I believe that he has taken it already.
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Religious reasons? Do they think God wants them to die a painful death?
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MJ1929 Jan 16, 2021
No, people just use that excuse as the easy way out because they think anything having to do with religion is automatically protected like race, gender, and so on. Unfortunately for them, there are no religions that preach against vaccinations in their doctrine, so it's an empty claim.
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After pondering this, for a while after my post and I think a comment on the subject I may have had a gut reaction and upon further reflection...
It is the individuals right to choose to have the vaccination or not.
Residents in skilled nursing that have few, if any visitors and never leave the facility are relatively safe.
Residents in Memory Care also have few visitors.
Residents in IL and Al have more contact with people but are also more able to take precautions make an informed decision as to having the vaccine or not.
Anyone that has a medical or religious reason for abstaining from the vaccine is within their right not to have it.
I stated that a facility may require the resident to be vaccinated or ask them to leave but they really can not do that. ALL facilities that are licensed would have to allow residents to make the choice to be vaccinated or not.
If I were still caring for my Husband it would be my right to require anyone that came into the house to care for him be vaccinated.
So I guess I am retracting my previous stance on this.
Nothing like sitting on a fence in a storm!
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My nephew works at a large teaching hospital attached to a university. He’s received both doses. As an aside, he and his coworkers had little issue with the first round vaccine but almost all of them became ill with the second. Most ran fever, had muscle and joint pain, and congestion, many leaving work to go home and as he put it “sleep it off” They all felt better in 24-36 hours and still considered it worth having the vaccine. The unintended consequence was that some at the hospital then refused the second dose after hearing of the illness, albeit quick, in the coworkers who’d had it. But anyway, nephew has been told in his many meetings on vaccine that it cannot be required of anyone anywhere to have it because it’s being used under FDA emergency authorization, and that makes it ineligible from any requirement
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Since several people here are determined to tell everyone how to live, I will put in my opinion. It would be insane to ask someone who already lives in a facility to leave because they won't accept a practically untested, possibly dangerous - short term OR long term, not all that effective vaccine. They did not sign up for that, and the facility is their HOME. I would sue the facility if they demanded my LO leave. Even our HOA covenant commission, which I am on, agrees they cannot enforce most of the new changes being decided upon on current residents, but must grandfather them - same thing.
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JoAnn29 Jan 16, 2021
Curious, why would an HOA have the right to tell someone they needed to take a vaccine. I think that is beyond their realm of responsibility.
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My mom is in a GA nursing home and they are not requiring the vaccination. The nursing home contacted us as to whether we wanted her to have it, but we told them that was mom's decision and she was capable of making it.
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Countrymouse Jan 15, 2021
Quite right, mom's decision - which way do you think she will go, just out of interest?
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390,738. That's the number of US deaths from COVID thru today. We're losing the fight against this terrible virus and yet an inordinate number of people choose not to receive the vaccine. Some say the process has been rushed thru and the vaccine didn't get enough scrutiny. We're in a Pandemic for Pete's sake. The normal approval time for a drug or vaccine is 12-15 years. Are you willing to wait? How many more millions will die? Those opting out of the vaccine only prolong the eradication of the disease. The vaccine protects one at a time while the disease grows exponentially.

Numbers of people who have died after getting the vaccine has to be put into context. 23 have died in Norway quotes one post, out of how many administered- 2300, 23,000, 230,000? And what underlying medical conditions did they have? How old were they? What are the specifics? According to the Sun, a UK publication, "The Norwegian Medicine Agency confirms the number of incidents so far is not alarming, and in line with expectations” and “Earlier this week, the Norwegian Institute of Public Health said that any side effects of the vaccine will be outweighed by a reduced risk of becoming seriously ill with Covid for elderly people.”

The USA's EEOC has ruled that employers may indeed require the vaccine as a condition of employment with few exceptions. Why wouldn't it also apply to care facilities?

There are already over 2 million deaths from the disease worldwide. None of them had the choice of receiving the vaccine. I'm sure they would have loved to have that choice.
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mollymoose Jan 15, 2021
I know two that died, and they refused to wear masks or social distance. So I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have taken the vaccine. There's thousands of others the same way.
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IMO, no one can be forced to take a vaccine. No matter where you live IL, AL and LTC you are a resident with rights. Even AL facilies are under State regulations private or not. They get inspected just like NHs.

Me, I don't think its been tested long enough. I will wait.
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People are should not be required to get vaccine for religious or other reasons. But if , even as an individual home owner said I do not want anyone in my home unless they have been vaccinated that should be my right

In the same way, it is the right of a private senior facility to impose the rules it wants. If people dont like the rules, they cannot be compelled to get vaccine, but facility can also have them leave.

Freedom of the individual apples to our legal system. Someone should nto hae to face legal action if they refuse a vaccine. But another private party, ie a senior living facility, also has the right to impose the rules it wants.
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AlvaDeer Jan 15, 2021
I believe you are correct in the instance of an ALF that is a private business which is not regulated by government. I am not certain where all of this goes with regulations in Nursing Home which has many federal regulations and state regulations.
Important thing is that those of us who wish to be protected and wish to have our seniors protected do so. I have given up on others, but I will push folks out of line to be 1st to get mine! I have an appt for 28th along with my partner and can't wait!
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How can you be 'for freedom of the individual' yet want mandatory vaccinations in senior living residences? That doesn't make sense to me. Nor does attaching a 'religious' significance to a brand new 'warp speed' vaccine that's been rushed through w/o proper testing, especially on elderly folks.

That said, I also don't see what difference it makes if your mother gets the vaccine and her neighbor does not. If the vaccine works, then your mother is 'immune' from getting the virus, but her neighbor is not, right? So, all you have to be concerned with is your mother's immunity. Unless 85% or so of the entire country gets the vaccine, which is highly unlikely unless the government forces us to in order to go grocery shopping, then 'herd immunity' isn't going to happen ANYWAY.

My mother is 94 and lives in Memory Care Assisted Living. She will be vaccinated on the 22nd. She and all the others were, of course, given the option to get the vaccine or to decline it. I agreed to it, as her POA, and signed the papers. Hopefully she won't have a bad reaction to it and require medical attention. She may still get Covid19, as many who are vaccinated DO, but get milder symptoms. Or she may not get it at all, as none of the 123 residents in the entire ALF have, to date. There are no guarantees with ANY of this mess, that's for sure.
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MJ1929 Jan 16, 2021
Vaccines aren't 100% effective in everyone who gets them. That's why it matters that everyone possible gets the vaccine.
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Does mom get a regular flu shot?
Has she had a Shingles shot?
Has she had other vaccinations during her life?
this is just another in a series of vaccinations.
If she chooses not to have a vaccination the facility has the right to ask her to find another IL facility. I bet it would be difficult to find one that would accept someone that refuses to get the vaccination.
there is what is called Herd Immunity and if the majority of people in the facility have the vaccination she would be "safe" IF she remains within the community but if she leaves for an outing, to go to the doctor, to get her hair done, to go to lunch with you she places herself as well as others in the community at risk.
Yes people have the right to refuse the vaccination, they have the right to refuse medical care but the facility also has a duty to protect others in the community. And there are some that can not get the vaccine due to other medical conditions and they are more at risk.
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I was asked permission and if I had a wish for my 90 year old mother now in skilled nursing to receive the vaccine. I consented. There is also a AL facility next door where she used to reside and a IL building across a driveway. This certainly leads me to believe that consent is requested and the choice to refuse a possibility. I am not sure but I imagine a vaccine cannot be forced. If one is vaccinated they should hopefully be protected from those who choose not to be should they become infected.
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"Anyway, my mom, a religious person herself said other religious residents are choosing not to get the vaccine. "

Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, individuals have the right to be free from discrimination on the basis of religion. As part of their religious beliefs, many individuals object to vaccines and cannot be forced to get them.
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Grandma1954 Jan 15, 2021
And if the facility REQUIRES it she can be asked to leave.
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Nobody is being forced to get vaccinated here but in a recent news story the director of a nursing home who was being interviewed said that they had about 90% of their residents sign up, with a handful more opting to wait for the Moderna vaccine that would be available at a later date. Staff compliance may prove to be more problematic.
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No one over 80 was included in the vaccine trials and with all the reporting coming out, I can see why these residents are refusing. Norway, a wealthy country with an excellent health care system, has deemed the vaccine unsafe for the elderly. 23 there have died after getting the Pfizer vaccine. Similar tales are coming out of Montreal and NY. Seems like people think the vaccine is some sort of covid miracle but it’s not. It doesn’t stop the virus from spreading and no one knows how long the immunity will last. If your mother got the vaccine, why are you worried? Isn’t she protected now?

Your mother is free not to live at the IL if she (Or you) doesn’t like the rules either. It goes both ways you know. And assisted livings have been in the first groups to get the vaccine across the country.
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Karsten Jan 15, 2021
at the same time if a facility does require the vaccine, those who dont want it are free to move out as well.

As others said, the vaccine is no magic bullet. But it does reduce risk, and to the degree everyone in a faciliity takes it risk is reduced more, IMHO. But that is not even the real question

The issue is whether the vaccine is great or not, should facilities be allowed to either require it or not require it, then let residents choose what they want to do based on facilitys rules
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I still believe, vaccine available or not, the current precautions should be followed and are the primary defense. So long as someone would be following those guidelines I would not have issues. Everyone should have the right to make their own health care decisions. If you are opposed to this then you and other residents have the right to move out. But that's just my perspective. I would be very angry to not have the right to say no and be forced to move, if I was otherwise comfortable. My aunt is in an assisted living out of state that was providing the vaccine. She intended to get it and had no issues. I do. And I am staying out of it in re to my elder parents who live independently. I AM very concerned about my father's decision as he has a history of adverse reactions to numerous drugs...and I am talking the more obscure reactions in the tiny print of a PDR. I'm the one who winds up having to deal with the crises which have included ER visits where they couldn't believe it. For him especially, I think the risks outweigh the benefits, but I do expect him to take all other precautions.
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Karsten Jan 15, 2021
so why would your right to not have the vaccine supercede someone elses right to live in a facility which requires it. My view facilities should be able to require it, or not require it, and prospective residents can than choose the facility that suits them.
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The COVID-19 vaccines are not required because they are still not officially fully approved by the FDA. They are now only used under emergency approval. When they get full approval from the FDA, maybe policies at long-term care will change, but for now, these businesses can't require residents or even their employees to get the vaccine. Also--the vaccine doesn't prevent you from "catching" the virus, even after two doses. It is designed to prevent you from getting very sick if you catch the virus, and they hope it will make people less likely to spread the virus to others (reducing transmission). So keep in mind the vaccine at present, even when used perfectly, isn't a magic bullet that will end the pandemic this year.
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worriedinCali Jan 15, 2021
Actually those businesses *can* require their employees to get the vaccine and terminate them if they refuse. There is no law that stops them.
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I do know that we had to take flu shots at my hospital in order to work on the floors; there had to be a REAL medical reason not to submitted; otherwise you might work some other areas or choose not to work there. That was many years ago. So that would be on workers.
At this point I consider it somewhat Darwinian. I just heard yesterday that France has at least FIFTY PERCENT of its populace refusing vaccine. That is more than likely the 50% that will be more likely to die of Covid-19. As I said, Darwinian. Adapt, learn, or..................................
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