Can you force someone to see a doctor?

Several years ago I asked my mom to get a geriatric evaluation...she refused. Her basis was that she would not do anything differently anyway so she did not want the evaluation. So while I do understand about choice, the reality is that she was probably in very early stages of dementia and refused to take her blood pressure medicine regardless of our begging her to do so and her regular doctor and cardiologist asking her to do so. So a couple of years ago, she had a stroke and it was a big one and she is paralyzed on one side and requires 24 hour a day skilled nursing care. We have exhausted all of her assets, sold her home and are now relying on medicaid to cover the nursing home. Its been very traumatic for her children and grandchildren to see their mom and grandmom come to this condition. Sometimes I am angry about it...I begged and pleaded with her to take her meds to no avail. I even pointed out the possible outcomes including the one that happened and it had no effect on her position.

Mind you, my mom is a Christian women who is very sweet and they love her at the nursing home...it just did not have to be this way.

So I sympathize with folks who are trying to deal with their hard headed parents and know first hand what can and does go wrong when they refuse to follow advice. For those that have said on this post, well, they just want to be left alone to die...that is too easy. What we have been through is much harder than if she had actually passed away when she had the stroke. But we all agreed at the time that she should be given the chance to recuperate.

Would I have done anything different looking back? No I don't think so!

My mother refused all medical help. I called adult protective service and they sent someone out to talk with her. My mother was ruled 'stable minded' so there was nothing they could do. My siblings and I tried everything to get her to the Dr and she was like a 2 year old pitching a fit. When my mother passed out with dehydration, bed sores and rotten teeth and had to be sent to the emergency room by ambulance after my brother found her he was arrested for abuse of an elderly. She was in bad shape but we all had to tell the detectives on the case that we tried to help her for years. There are records of all the calls I made (I live out of state) and all the times my siblings tried to get her to the hospital. Make a record and record her refusing treatment. The doctors were surprised that my mother lived after that. Now I wrote up a form and asked her to sign it stating that she will not refuse the medical help that she so desperately needs. My mother is now 90 goes to the gym everyday and it doing wonderful. She had one foot in the grave with her refusing treatment. I am just so glad that I can enjoy her a few more years.

I struggle with that every day, 123handsup. On one hand I want to be bossy and change her, but other times I think, well, she's older and is more frail, confused, etc. I tend to feel more combative, though, when she starts with the insults and so on. Part of it is her age, but part of it is her upbringing and possibly some mental illness.
And then there's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I'm guilty of that with her, I admit. It would just be lovely to not have a conversation where I hear how the entire family has deceived her or been cruel to her. And I'm at the point where I have the hardest time not going into the room and feeling a flareup of anger at her. It's for me to get beyond that but god is it hard.

All of us should put our self in their shoes we will be them someday. What will you do when you child tells you what to do and how to do it? Do we do all the things because we care for them or because it's preventive for us? Our parents are still people and how do we know the fear they don't share with us? Mama bug said it right just maybe they are afraid that the hospital will keep them there, my mother of 96 does not want to go under any circumstance she does fear that they will keep her and than what she lays there to die. I think we all mean well, somehow we have to stop and remember just because they are older now does not mean they are no longer a human being with the same amount of feelings. I have fought my mother for years on all this stuff, I have told her I'm tired of the fight and let her know that this is her life and she has the right to choose what she wants. I have no right to tell her any different. We act like they are stupid or something, like we have all the right answer for their life. None of our parents got this old because we were in charge, they did something right and they still have the right to choose. We care givers have a different way of thinking than most, we want them to feel good look good act good, this way we feel like we are doing a good job. For all of you out there remember we are doing a good job and when we truly make it about them it's a great thing. Driving our self nutty because we can not control them is our issue not theirs, if there is an emergency and you really think they are in trouble call 911 and deal with the out come, less stress on the both of you. Please try and think how you feel when someone is always asking you to do something that does not feel right for you. We can keep them as safe as we can, unless they are with some mental problem and on lots of meds we just have to step back. Remember how any of you feel when your kids make you feel over the hill and to old to understand, you know your not and it probably makes you upset when it happens. Our parents may not say much but they are wiser and lived longer than we have, therefore we are still their child not the other way around. We do this because its the right thing not because its easy and we need to make it about them not us. laugh a lot than cry

I totally get not wanting to leave one's home. I think in part that's what's going on with my mom. She doesn't want to be in a nursing home as she worked in a couple many years back and saw some sad stuff (it was one of those last resort places). But I also think she just wants to sit around and smoke. Honestly that is her hobby. That and nursing grudges.
At the restaurant yesterday she made it a point to tell the waiter that in Germany they fought for the right to smoke and won it back. I have no idea what she's talking about. But to make it into something like a civil rights issue ... pretty bad.
I've tried to point out to her, though, that getting medical help early means she gets home faster. In this situation she got an X-ray and a cast. If it had healed badly on its own she might have had to go to the hospital for surgery, etc., so fix it fast and fix it good, I say!

My mother has Alzheimer's and is living in a long-term facility. She does not understand that her disease causes her to live there, thinks she can go home and be fine by herself. Dad passed away 6 years ago and she sometimes doesn't remember that. Often when I go to visit she is packed and ready to go home. Thinks she has been in the hospital---how can I tell her that she has to stay there, and she can never go home? She also asks if she's supposed to stay there until she dies. She is 84 years old, and has had this condition probably about 6-7 years.

My MIL fell a couple of months ago and sliced her leg open. Didn't tell me until a couple of hours after it happened and then only because I was bringing her meds to her. It looked like a crime scene at her house. I live down the hill from her, don't live with her. She wanted to just let it go. I ended up calling my nephew, who threatened to call an ambulance. She listens to him more than anybody else but doesn't always listen. Between his threats to call 911 and my reassuring her that the ER would just stitch her up and I'd bring her back home, she agreed to see a doctor. I think it was more of needing to be reassured that she would come home and not have to stay in the hospital or get sent to a nursing home. But that's what worked for us. If your mom threatens suicide again, call 911 and tell them. She will either have to go for a psych eval or get billed for the trouble. Maybe she'll learn not to do that anymore.

Going forward I really don't want repeats of old behaviors. I'm going to make sure she has groceries, see if I can talk her into Meals on Wheels (let's try them for a month!) since that would save some labor and mean balanced meals.
I'm also trying to talk her into hiring a friend of a friend who works with elderly people. The doctor doesn't think the situation is bad enough to get a home nurse, but I'm going to see if my mom is willing to hire this woman to come by once or twice a week and help out a bit.
And would you believe at the end of the meal she treated us to, she was already complaining? The portions were huge and my mom had to box the food up to take home and she griped about how little food they gave her for the price. (It was a nice restaurant, too, and she got a really good seafood dinner with bread, potatoes, veggies, salad!) The waiter even went and got more fresh bread and boxed it for her and made fresh coffee for her!
I told hubby, that's just the beginning. She'll revisit that again and again and it'll grow progressively worse in her memory. Never mind that she does nothing. I'll often get a call and she'll brag she has $8,000 or $10,000 in checking, just piling up because she does nothing! I wonder if she wants to rub it in our faces, or think it'll keep us crawling back to her one day, for a loan or something. Really, though, I think why not use some of that money to see a specialist for some of these health issues! Why not hire a home nurse or someone to drive her around! (Is there a good place to find someone like that? Some website? Why couldn't she pay someone $100 to take her shopping for a 5-hour block once a week?)

Don't allow yourself to be bullied! It is very important to stick up for yourself and to assert yourself if necessary. It won't kill them to be reprimanded.

Your mother has a precious jewel in you. Too bad she doesn't see it.

Good Girl! Way to go.

Update: Took mom to the doctor. (She griped but went.) Boy was she a pain. Showed up 15 minutes before the appointment, since she lives five minutes from her doctor. Grumble, grumble, don't rush me. (Again, there was only ONE appointment today, so what does she want? And she had two hours notice!)
At the doctor's they took an X-ray and there's bit of a break in the wrist. So her arm is now in a cast and she has orders to not get it wet, try to cut it off, etc. (I told them I'd bet a thousand dollars she'll try to cut it off with a knife in four weeks.)
But man, I was so mad. I don't feel much sympathy for her despite the break. In the waiting room she was griping loudly how nasty and mean I've been since I was a teenager. I actually started crying but walked away before she could see it because every time I have cried she accuses me of trying to stir up drama or of seeking sympathy.
After three hours in the doctor's office, she had to get a smoke while I got my car. She stood out there and yacked with every person who went by who would talk to her, and then when I pulled the car up by her, she waved me off, said "You can give me a few minutes to smoke since I gave you so much of my time today." I nearly blew my stack then and there.
Take time off work, wait for three hours in the doctor's office while she gets X-rays and a cast, and then be told that! I was on the verge of leaving her there. She then wanted to go to dinner, her treat, and I was not into it, but my husband said let's do it so we know she gets a meal. She's diabetic and hadn't eaten anything all day so I go along and now she's got leftovers to eat. We looked in her fridge and there's not much except a bit of meat and old bread.
But because she will need a touch of help showering and some things we'll have to come back and help. Do a bit of shopping for her, etc., take her to follow-ups. I felt good and empowered earlier today and now I feel enraged and like I am trapped all over again. I would so love to just drop her off at a nursing home and wash my hands of the whole deal!

Do you see what you are doing yet ????? You are being pulled into a debate and you are allowing it to happen, when she does this just say okay will than I will make another app. for another day, you are feeding into what she is doing. I know it makes you crazy, again when this happens you have a choice. Heidi73 stop it!! she is not your child she is you mother, tell her to call a cab after she makes her own appt. than walk away. She can only change when you change the way you help her. I'm sure you don't want to hear this but it is the truth, you can lead a horse to water but you CAN NOT!!!! make him drink it. Her arm is fine and if it is not than she has to live with not you, you have a choice you alone have choice. Stop it and move on for the day, I promise you when you let go you will feel better and she will act different, no one can do to us what we don't allow. She is her own person and you already know you can not change it so give it up. I'm speaking from many years of experience here. Choose to help your way and that's that have a good rest of the day. All the care givers out there doing God's work hats off to all of you, it's okay to feel the way you feel. It's not okay to believe you can change her into something you need her to be.
Laugh a lot than cry

Would you believe I already got a complaining call from my mother? There is one appointment available at the doctor's today, at 2:15, which I took. She called and told me she hoped I made it for 2:30. No, I didn't. She kept complaining and said, "I'm not made of stone." (Like I am, because I know that's what she meant.) I reminded her there was only one appointment available and I took it because she's been going on about the arm for days. End of story. Now all of a sudden she's griping because she can't braid her hair so I've inconvenienced her somehow. It's like, well, then maybe seeing the doctor isn't just a good idea, but a very good idea! She makes all these silly excuses why it's inconvenient to go. "I can't put on my underwear!" Well, I can help you dress. "I can't put my hair up." Well, I can braid it or tie it up for you. These are not reasons to avoid going to the doctor. The doctor isn't going to care if you have a pretty shade of lipstick on.

Heidi73
I don't think any of your feelings are wrong or un counted for, my daughter is 42 years old I could not even imagine taking her life on a guilt trip. I don't know how old your mother is and I don't know why you were picked to do what you do, get your freedom you are to young to allow this to go on. Believe me when you take your life back you will put her in a position to stop the madness. You can be angry if you choose, that will only hurt you, you just need to say what you are willing to do and than do it and no more. Don't give mixed messages and don't play the game. We care givers seem to think we have some type of control and truth is we do not. Our parents are still human they are still the same as they have always been toward us, we do not have the power to change them. They are just an older version of what we knew when we were younger, we can not change it so stop thinking that she will be different she won't. I believe they get worse as they get older, we are a care giver not because it is easy but because it is the right thing to do. That does not mean we should allow them to treat us bad, she needs you somehow and the two of you have formed some type of pattern over the years. You are still young so you must change the rules now. I know easier said than done, I'm dealing with my mother and sometimes I want to leave and never return. Remember we can not make them do any thing no matter how much we ask, they will do what they want, until she decides you have to step back. When she complains tell her you love her and walk away, or simply just say I don't want to listen to this right now and than leave. You have the power to change only YOU!!! so please do yourself a favor and let it go. As long as they can make a decision we can not choose for them. I'm sorry for you pain and all the other caregivers that have lost parts of their life trying to care for their parents. Good luck to all of us, again we do this because its the right thing NOT!!! because it is easy. Laugh a lot than cry

I feel like I've turned a corner in dealings with my mom. Since her tumble last week she's only cried out for cigarettes (which I foolishly got for her on Thursday). Off and on she says she thinks it's broken, and then suddenly it's only bruised. Throughout all the drama and accusations over the last 12 years (exacerbated by her stroke), I have had enough. I told her I'm not getting her a d*mn thing until she goes to see the doctor for her arm. No more cigarettes. No more get-it-ASAP Vicodin and Xanax. She has to get her arm checked to see if it's broken and until then I'm not doing a damn thing for her. I've been called selfish, nasty, mean, cruel, man-hungry (for loving my husband of 11 years?), a liar, thief, cheat, and so on for 12 years as I've given up vacation time, work hours and so on to get her cigarettes or her pills or to spend hours at a time taking her shopping only to be told again, I'm nasty and don't understand her. I've had enough.
I repeatedly told her, I am not doing a thing for her until she goes to see the doctor, and I called and got her an appointment later today. She griped that she only had two hours to get ready and suddenly her arm wasn't broken. I said, tell me now, and I'll cancel it. Well, she's willing to go. But I am so tired of this. Man, if I could go back in time (I know, I can't) I would tell my 25-year-old self, get some distance from this woman. She'll eat your soul alive with her dysfunction and anger and addiction (yeah, now it's mainly cigarettes and xanax, but it really makes her unpleasant and demanding). I'm 41 now and really want nothing to do with her. I'll make sure her arm is okay and get her any meds they prescribe, but I think I might be done with this. Yes, she's getting older, dottier, weaker, more confused, but after a while the horse you're whipping is dead and can't feel anything. All I feel now is anger. Not a shred of pity and I used to at least have that, to worry she was hurting. She's just an angry burden. Is that normal? Healthy? I can't even say except it suddenly feels like I'm freer to have this disconnect and I kind of like it.

It is very frustrating, but no you cannot force someone to see a doctor. If you are really concerned, then the wellness check by APS would be a good idea. She may respond better to someone who is not family. You are her caregiver in some capacity, as she allows, it sounds like you could benefit from support for yourself. Check with your local Area Agency on Aging or Bureau of Senior Services for more information. The have info on a caregiver support group and there may be programs that your mother could benefit from. Maybe having someone coming in once or twice a week to assist her would benefit her greatly. My grandmother was very stubborn, didn't want to see the doctor, once the ER doc came out to the car to see her. I understand the frustration. Just remember you care about her no matter how she behaves or what she says and you can only do so much. You are not alone. Good Luck

Stargazer
Let it go or drive yourself insane, I'm speaking from years of experience with my mother. She is now 96 and lives with me full time and what's left of my mind I'm telling you to let it go. Let her smoke and do whatever she wants it's her life and she should live it her way, you have a choice to walk away, tell her you love her but you cannot allow her to bring you down, I know easier said than done. Reach down and find the words and say them lovingly than walk away, we have no control over their life as we want know one to control us. You can control only what you want done to you, if she is driving you nutty walk away, if you do not want to get her cigs say no!!! you have all the right to live as you want, same as she has the right to live as she wants you do not have to be part of the negative it's a choice we make. You do not have to feel guilt it is a choice please hear me and I promise you, you will be better off. You can love her without the anger let her do what she wants, it is hard I know I'm watching my mom not eat, not walk enough, not talk to me, basically dying in front of my eyes. I made the choice to keep her with me, it's not easy it's just the right thing to do. Laugh a lot than cry

Ahhh, I see there's been progress. ;)

OK, today, new developments. (Sort of.)
I get an "urgent" call from my mom. What does she want? She wants me to go to the pharmacy across the street from my house and get her her Xanax and her Vicodin. Of course, it's Labor Day here in the U.S. and it's a neighborhood pharmacy so it's not open. I tell her that.
"Oh, my arm hurts and I think it's broken." I remind her, it's Labor Day, so it's pretty much the only option, and if it's broken, then medical treatment is the way to go.
She does not want to go. She mainly wants her xanax, because she gets a big, strong prescription and it says take "up to three a day." Besides cigarettes her great love is her Xanax. She insists it's good for her heart.
I had this moment where I just thought, I can't do this anymore, and I'm tired of being her whipping post. So I say, I'll take you to the hospital today or to the doctor tomorrow to see if it's broken, and then when the pharmacy is open we can get whatever medications they prescribe.
I'm just tired of the tantrums and so on. If she doesn't get her way immediately she starts to say she'll find someone else to do it but I always get the call. But I'm not doing a thing until she agrees to see a doctor or go to the hospital. I'm so not in the mood to go chasing after her cigarettes or going to get her some xanax just to shut off threats of suicide or being insulted and being called nasty or ungrateful.

She is too smart for you. Tell her, and mean it:

First: You have to see a doctor, may be get an X-ray.

Second: after you see a doctor, THEN I'll get your ciggies.

Got it? Don't let her beat you again.

One more word of caution: And hope it doesn't backfire on you. Somehow. Someway.... I've seen my oldest sister react when she tried to quit smoking and went into withdrawal. It's not a pretty thing to watch. That's how I learned at the tender age of my early teens that I would never ever smoke a cigarette.

And the scary part about living with a parent who was never diagnosed with dementia and refusing medical help - is when they DO get hurt, I have this feeling that the police, the DA and APS will hold us live-in family caregiver Responsible. Therefore, we may be charged for Elderly Neglect or abuse. Very stressful situation. Went through the whole hoopla with every govt agency passing the buck to another agency . So, it's very very fortunate that you're not living the parent or the parent is living with you. That just brings up your stress level up another notch.

Since you're not living with your mom, I'd do the withholding of the cigarettes. Depending how she reacts, she might become very angry with you. But, no problem since you're not there to watch your back from her. She can't accuse you of abusing her - because you're not living with her to be accused of that. So, you have more leeway in handling your mom. I hope it works!

Heidi I can sympathize with you. My mother who will be 81 in a week is very stubborn. She has fallen numerous times and refuses to go to ER or to see a doctor. She smokes like a fiend and moans and groans all day long about her back (she has spinal stenosis and scoliosous). We have been down every avenue you can think of to force her to get help and there is nothing that we can do! I believe she has dementia as she cannot remember what she has eaten, when she changed her nightgown and on and on. Yet because she know her name and what day it is, that's it...sorry she is fine to make her own decisions. God help us....at least you don't live with your mother. I do! And it is a living hell! I feel trapped because I don't have the heart to leave her. Guess this was no help but it helped me unload!

Thank you, everyone. I love this place. It's nice to know I'm not alone and just being able to vent and read other people's posts and answers is such a comfort.

To Runragged:,As I understand in Illinois a Guardian is not the same as A POA
many a POA try to assume the power of Guardian and fail

Cigarettes??? I would be scared to death she'd start a fire. The last thing she needs is cigarettes. If I were you, I would stop making cigarettes available to her. If she throws a fit, let her throw a fit. Better than having the house burn down and her along with it!

Not quite sure of your situation. You definitely cannot force treatment on anyone if the are lucid enough and refuse it. Not lucid you can call for helo. Actual vs implied consent. That said, if you hadn't thought of this, consider making sure you document her refusal well and preferably have a witness. I have a similar situation (minus the cigs). I figure at least if she takes a good serious fall (she has recently fallen and injured her wrist but got up and tries to carry on, refusing help) or something, I am going to call 911 and if she wants to refuse help she can do it to them and not me. Might get her the help she needs, will definitely get good documentation of my attempts to get help. Speaking of somethibg serious, I would not burden the 911 system for something minor. Just a few things to consider. Hang in there.

If you think she has hurt herself and you are the one making decisions you can call the fire department (911). They can give her a good check to assess and help you make a decision if she really needs a doctor. They will NOT force her to go any further or bill her, especially if you are there.I agree with the suggestions; refuse to buy her cigarettes as a means of compromise for future.
Good luck.

Heidi73, oh the old crying wolf routine.... it can be exhausting for those who are faced with someone who does that on a regular basis because you never know if there will be a time when the person is really serious.

My sig other's daughter did the wolf "cancer" thing and she is only in her 30's. She told her father she is dying from skin cancer, told her husband and 7 and 9 year old that mommy has cancer and would die next year, yada, yada, yada. It was academy award performance. Those poor children hearing that. Now we just roll our eyes whenever she has a new *fad* illness. Next time she tells me she is dying I plan to say "that's too bad, we will miss you".

As for the cigarette buying, keep stalling on the buying because you just don't have to the time right now, maybe next week.... keep dragging it out further and further.