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Mom keeps trying to reverse decisions she and dad made to live in a very nice independent living apartment, so dad can have his meals catered, etc. while mom ws in the hospital. She is very frail and has an in-home nurse in the apartment 11-13 hours each day. My sister and I have set up a living trust, with their credit union and an attorney as financial POAs, specifically to avoid any misunderstanding between our parents and their estate. Regardless, mom has become very paranoid that dad is spending their money fooliishly on himself and we daughters, and is denying dad minor purchases, and complsining to her nurse that they can't afford her per their contract. She is constantly waking up at night demanding thair financial papers, and cursing us and her nurse, telling us that she wishes dad would just die and leave her their money.

Mom and dat have enough money to live on for quite a long time, which was shown to them using a financial plan calculated by their credit union. Her nurse keeps calling in tears, as she is getting the full force of her abuse, and is afraid for my dad. The facility has a skilled nursing facility, but they don't want her to return due to her behavior during her last stay.

Is there any way we can declare her incompetent due to her irrational behavior? She is very manipulative, and could probablyfool people into feeling sorry for her.She has done so before, never desitating to lie and cry on demand..

Question: Incompetent and irrationl,or just plain old mean?

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that is for sure.thankfully i am already seeing a therapist who has helped a lot. i was seeing her even before this with mom. but it will be a tremendous change in my life AGAIN. I had just started getting my life back together after the loss of my daughter 18 yrs ago and my husband 10 yrs ago when Mom lost her 2nd husband 3 yrs later and i realized that she was having problems with her memory and she had 3 car accidents. the last she totaled the car and has no memory of it.thankfully she walked away from it and so did the people in the other vehicle. so no more car after that. so getting back to having a life to live again will be a drastic change but i will cope with it.
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Please Keep us posted!
We always want to hear how things went! We are here to be supportive, and that includes after issues get resolved.
When a caregiver goes thru stuff like this, it takes time to heal afterwards.
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thank you all for your advice you have been very helpful.
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mistymom,

Keep doing that:
working Mom gently around to moving to Assisted Living.

She will not likely go without a fight, from what you have described, though--but maybe she might!.
You do have the advantage that she does not own her home
--so she is renting?
Maybe the rental needs to be vacated due to landlord issues...
If so, AHA! use need to vacate the rental, to leverage her into a new, much easier to maintain,"Senior Studio Apartment" [aka, Assisted Living Facility!].
NOT Telling her it is an Assisted Living place,
just calling it "Senior Studio Apartment"
--a new, better rental...
especially good, one that does not look like a nursing home from the entry--one that looks sorta like apartments.

If that does not work, you may have to
do the process of giving her 2 choices of AL facilities,
both of which have been previously interviewed and screened.

LAST RESORT solutions:
1. If above fails, you must choose a facility, then set a date for her room being open, then arrange:
Take some of Moms things to start furnishing the new room--decorate room with them while --someone else-- takes Mom on her outing.
Take Mom for a "Sunday Drive", pleasant day out, doing things she likes
...which ends at the AL place, where she meets new people socially, they introduce her to her new "apartment".
You will have already brought her basic things to start with, then maybe moving more of her own things, later.

2. The worst-case scenario would be to call Emergency
[a Crisis Line --or else 911], report that you feel endangered by the elder, who needs removed from your home right away---or if from her home,
Officials in that process may put her into a mental health screen holding room for 72 hours, unless her mental condition is already on record,
in which case she may be hospitalized briefly, then moved to whatever facility has an open bed for her.
[[[this is so traumatic, so, best to go with --assisting her to choose-- between the previously chosen facilities, to hopefully go willingly, once you have put it plainly that she must move to a new place.]]]

I hope things come around soon, for you and Mom!
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we are currently trying to gently "steer" mom in the direction of assisted living but as she used to work in a hospital at a time when these kind of places were not reglulated like they are now she would be very resistant if told it is assistedliving. We have been telling her it is a nice little apartment with other seniors there. and they if SHE chooses to go out of her apartment and mingle with them that would be good as they have singing (which she used to do alot til she got sick) and play cards and chat and a lot of other nice things they can do together if SHE wants.we are trying to explain that we can not move in with her at her house as she does not own it and when she passes away we would have no where to live. (true) my sister and my brother have POD jointly. But they are making sure we are all in on the decisions. it is just walking a fine line that we do n ot upset her and make her stubborness come out and refuse to go. Because after 7 yrs of this I just can not do it anymore. My health is sufferin g and so is my sisters from the stress of the situation. But we are truely wanting to do this to help mom as she really would benefit from being around more people and not just her kids. We can rarely get her to leave the house and that is not good at all.
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Did not several people mention that the move from hospital to care facility is often easiest? Be prepared.
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mistymom,
You have part of your case already made--a nurse documented it, and your family all refuse to shelter her. The nurse has hopefully charted that well, so that a Doc will take note, and confirm that, in her chart.
Frame that in terms of "protecting Dad from Mom's deteriorating state of mind and behaviors"

She no doubt wants to feel some level of control in her life--she has lost so much, and that is scary--people act badly based just on that!

So, gather information about a few Assisted Living Places.
Pamphlets, services included in the monthly cost, and how that cost is covered.
Interview those places, tour them.
Some folks go have lunch there and hang around the social areas to get a feel for how the place is run....at least then you have a feel for which ones seem the better options.
Reduce the choices to 2.
Make sure each of the choices has a room currently open for her.

It is also important to acknowledge her feelings,
yet, be firm about the need to move her to one of those places on the list.

Put it similar to how one does for a child who has trouble making choices,
[ or doesn't want to];
Included statements like these to help steer her to "her" own choice:
----"Mom, I know Assisted Living places are not how you imagined living,
but, right now, this is the best solution to make sure you keep getting proper care"
----"Here are 2 good choices of Assisted Living places, which have been interviewed to make sure they are OK."
----"WE can talk over each of them, to see which one you prefer."
----"Mom, did you know you can have some of our own things in your room with you?" "There are more people there who understand what you are going through."
----"IF you cannot choose, I [or we, in case of multiple siblings working together] will choose for you, since one must be found now."

She will NOT like having to choose to accept going to an assisted living place, and MAY throw several kinds of tantrums [real ugly, in an adult size!]
but she will most likely go for being part of the choosing process, rather than letting someone else chose for her.

You will want, also, to have Social Services in on this loop
--make sure they know her condition, and that you will need help getting her moved to the facility/ help getting her to accept the move at any level.
AND, have Social Services in on the whole thing, because at one point or another, she or another relative might start slinging accusations of "elder abuse". Happens all the time.

Please keep us posted how it goes!
I know this is hard
--I flunked the process, since at that time, I didn't know what to do, to get the help we needed to get the process to run more smoothly.

I pray you get the help needed to help the process go smoothly!

{{{hugs!}}}
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mistymom, I wish there were a better answer, because there are sure a lot of adult children in that same difficult spot!

In your case there may be a little more hope. Your mother has dementia, right? People in their "right mind" have the legal right to make poor and even self-destructive decisions. But when people become legally incompetent then the person they appointed to act for them can step in and make decisions in their best interest.

Who has Power of Attorney for your mother?
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I was hoping to get a better answer to that question as my mother now is at the point where we feel she needs to be in assisted living. as does a nurse who evaluated her..our problem is getting her to agree to go. she does not want to be alone but also doesnt want to be with old people. what she really wants is one of us kids to live with her and that is not possible. she is becoming very nasty.
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Kristine2012: I am sorry your Mother died when you were so young. I had a very loving Mother who would have fought a bear to protect any one of her kids. But age can sometimes change them into different people. My Mother is now 96 and she has accused us of stealing from her, throwing her out of her home and selling it, and getting rid of all her "stuff". We would never steal from her, She fell, had hip surgery and could no longer live alone so she came to live with me. She pays the electric bill--less than $200. a month and I pay just about everything else. She has a large SS income but it is accumulating in the bank because she is afraid she will not have enough money to last her the rest of her life. It would be funny is I didn't have to stretch my money to take care of her. So you never know what life is going to be like down the road. Some people get mean or contrary as they age and some siblings turn out to be dishonest and greedy. I guess what I am trying to say is don't judge unless you know all the facts in a situation.
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To Kristine2012: The scenario you paint for others is quite quaint. I have given my mother a buttload of money and her behavior towards me got even worse after that. Fact is, you do not know how you'd feel about your mother at this point. This isn't Disneyland, it's the real world with real people trying to cope and if you haven't experienced the problems firsthand, you're just a bullying voice.
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Kristine 2012, are you new to this site? If so, it is important to understand that we are all here to support each other and make suggestions based on our OWN experiences. From what you have said, you unfortunately appear to have little, if any, experience with elderly parents so I am unsure of the basis of your comments to merc55. Also, on this site we do not judge the actions of others, especially since it appears that you may have have misread the original post.

However, we would love it if you kept coming back to learn from those of us who walk a mile in similar shoes every hour of every day. We would be very grateful for the benefit of your suggestions on topics that fit in with YOUR life experiences.
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Kristine2012, did you carefully read the originl post? This is not about parents who don't have enough money and need their children to contribute to the "POT." The parents have plenty of money, and it is being overseen for them by an objective outsider. The parents have cognitive impairments and don't understand their financial situation. How on earth does that translate to neglect or abuse?? Have you ever dealt with a loved one who was cognitively impaired? Have you lived with someone with paranoia? Dementia? Do you have any first-hand experience with what merc55 is dealing with? I'm sorry that your mother died when you were young but that doesn't make you an expert on how to handle mentally impaired parents.
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People who SAY what they would do IF their loved one was still around are clueless. You ONLY know what you would do when it is REALITY. When you are ACTUALLY dealing with the issue.

From experience I can only say you must do what you believe is RIGHT, if not what is BEST for your circumstance. Pray for wisdom, search, wait then apply whatever God has brought to you. And it will probably be more than one solution. That way whatever choice you make with the options given to you, you will not be wrong.
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Ill tell you for sure some of the people havent dealt with this problem 24-7 they would sing a different song
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Lots of good advice about the potential of dementia - money is just the control issue - not really what it's all about. I'd purchase the book - The 36 Hour Day and begin to understand where your "mom is" in her current situation. Geriatric Dr for sure! Possible mild anti depressent as well. Sounds frustrated and trying to hold onto something...so it's her key focus - hense the 3 AM concerns! Some medications can cause meanness too. The geriatric dr found for my mom - check credentials and the types of patients he/she is seeing - aggressively tweaked her med list and much anger dissapated.

Try diverting the subject at hand OFTEN - get a medical POA - and move forward with her care. Competency issues are tough at best.
Best wishes...
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you have some work to do. How often do you see them? because it sounds like she is getting senile. when they pay bills who pay's. food does she still shop? everyday things that keep us aware of time and obligations. if these things are done for her she no longer has a handle on what's happening to her money. that can make her insecure because she may be aware that she is not thinking or functioning like she used to. also if she is becoming senile or has dementia then these worry's are magnified. and she will repeat herself regarding money because she knows she is not keeping up and may even know that she can't any longer. we used to keep grandpa's check book handy so we could show him every night sometimes. . Do you have them set up with money they can put in there wallet every week. Oh i have so many thoughts on this I could go on, but I wont. What is going to have to happen is more monitering by you because it will not stop. we went thru the money issue for years Im sorry to say . She just needs to be reminded what she has per month, what she spends and how she is ok. sometimes you will have to repeat this over and over again. Wishing you luck!
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One more thing I wanted to add. Please check your mom's meds. Many times these meds can dramatically change a person's behavior especially elderly people. Doctors love to tell us how safe some drugs are for our elderly parents YET the clinical trials on these drugs are usually done on much younger people and doctors use this information to apply it to older people which is very scary for older people because they tend to be affected a lot more by the side effect of those drugs. So please check what the adverse effects of any meds your mom is taking and if you don't understand anything ask the pharmacist to explain and re-explain until you understand it. Never assume that the drugs she is taking are safe.
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ALSO, the nursing home section refusing to take Mom in,
IS some documentation of her bad behaviors.
Get copies of that, for your files, as part of the case to present to her Docs to get her declared--but you need some more documentation.
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---Document daily, each time it happens, and what/how, when Mom is "inappropriate": Uses wrong words, turns on a dime with content, threatens, acts out, etc.
---Record it if you can, using a micro-cassette recorder, and saving the tapes, labeling them with dates/times.
But if Mom has always been a certain amount of that kind of behaviors,
and can present herself well,
it will take hours longer than the standard 2-hour Social Worker evaluation, if you have nothing else to show them.

---DOES Mom get worse after sundown [Sundowner's Syndrome?]
---HAS she gotten worse during the last few years?
---DOES she have symptoms of mental illness left undiagnosed for her lifetime [very common], which may be diagnosed now [again, you MUST have documentation of signs and symptoms]
---HAVE there been substance abuse issues, or any sort of brain injuries [even in childhood]?
---HAS she behaved badly on record [like, been thrown off a Senior bus permanently, or, had police to the home when she reports thefts that she invented, etc]
---IS there any other kind of documentation showing her "behaviors are a danger to herself or others"?
--HAS she made threats about wishing Dad dead, in any form, before, especially connected with her ability to use the money?
---HAVE any police reports been called in for Mom's behaviors causing harm to herself or others?
---HAVE any reports been made to Social Workers, Crisis Lines, etc., about Mom's behaviors or threats?
---HAS Mom demonstrated she is far stronger when she really wants something, than she appears?
---HAVE her meds changed, perhaps contributing to her bad behaviors?

IF a person wants to spend their money, bury it, burn it, give it away to total strangers, or otherwise disappear it,
it SEEMS, to date, families and caregivers have little recourse, without the person being "certifiable", to prevent them doing weird things with their money.

BUT, if the person demonstrates any behaviors that might be dangerous to themselves or others
--ANY others--
that can be an opening for getting them assessed incompetent,
which would, in effect, prevent them using their funds inappropriately
---you just have to make sure whoever is in charge, is taking good care of same, in the person's stead.

It is AWFUL to watch people deteriorate, worse, parents.
It can be wretched to do the hands-on care-giving when someone behaves like that. Your home health nurse needs alternates to give a respite!
Even siblings can flip-flop between desperately wanting to provide care for their elder, yet being terribly vulnerable to that demented elder [even if it has been going on most of their lives!] causing them to want to disassociate from those same elders.
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Sounds like your nurse needs somebody to tag-team with so she's not carrying the whole load.

"Incompetent and irrationl,or just plain old mean?" YES! To all three!

We just took our Mom to a neurologist and her regular doctor and they're ready to sign commitment papers and put her away. She's always been difficult, controlling and abusive (too light of a choice of words, but you get the idea) and now the Dementia is bringing out the worst in her.

It's a tough position. You have to get control of the money for the sake of the parents, but you have to remember it's NOT YOUR MONEY and you have to make sure none of it "sticks to your fingers" as it goes through your hands.

The courts should step in at some point and audit whoever is handling the money. My advice is keep a $100 digital camera handy to take snap shots of receipts and transactions and know how to switch it to video. My Canon is great! (The $100 Nikon's have a lag time between shots)

CYBS! (cover yer back side)
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Involve the lawyer with the Financial POA. He might have some suggestions. It will definitely take a firm statement from your mother's doctor about her diagnosis, physical and mental condition for guardianship, but first get it if you have to go that route. It is likely the Court might appt another physician for opinion. It doesn't seem wise for you to use your own funds and family funds when your parents obviously very wisely planned well for their care in their old age. It also may be that the nurse that is caring for your mother is not properly trained or not of the personality type to handle the situation. A social worker specializing in the elderly would be a wonderful asset.to be involved. And, I would have a camera system installed in the home very discreetly - there may be something going on with the caregiver that you don't know about....
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Yes I agree with Kristine2012 a penny for your thoughts? I think you give just 1 10 of what you have back to your parents and you might find some solace. Peace in your soul is a priceless thing to acheive even if you know its only temporary. Let me explain. My Mother is displaying much of the same however I have to say she has always had someone elses best interest in mind when being manipulative never her own. She has been a succussfull bussiness woman and raised 6 children. Now why at 88 is she being held against her will and watching her credit and possesions go down the tube? Because the wrong child obtained POA she has recinded and is trying to get out of his clutches. It is a game of chess so listen and watch your step this is a human life.
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ALSO Why don't ya'll contribute to the POT of Gold once in a while After all she spent her money on ya'll to raise you Now maybe its time you spent your money on her!
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Listen I don't have a mom she died when I was 13 yrs old. If she was still alive I sure wouldn't be fighting with her about money SHE would be a priority and she would have what she needs and wants I would LISTEN to my mom. SOUNDS like the MONEY is the priority with ya'll Did you ever think that maybe she is abusive because she is being neglected and or abused by ya'll?
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What does your dad think of all this unwanted drama? I have friends who grew up poor and to this day hesitate to make a long distance phone call. And they have been very comfortable for years. It may help to have expert assistance in the house to observe exactly what is happening and find a solution which may be meds that help reduce anxiety. Hope it gets better.
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i believe she in the parniod stage. i would recommend that u get her on some meds asap by calling her doctor. you might lose your nurse if u do not get a handle on this. if u put her a home they will put her on meds too
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You need to call her physician and show the nurses' documentation and tell him the history. He/she can adjust medication, declare her incompetent and make official changes and recommendations, as warranted. You and the nurse do not need to handle this alone. Also, see if you can get social services and any aging services involved to evaluate her, if need be after the physician. She may need medication to cool her aggression and irrationality. I'd start with the doctor first.
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If your mom has dementia/Alzheimer's couldn't she go in a facility, even if it's for a short time, that specializes in these things. They know how to handle all different kinds of situations and how to deal with them. I feel that would be the best solution for you at this time then you would have a better understanding of what is going on with her. It's very sad to be afraid. My dad went through a time when he thought my son, who doesn't drive or go anywhere without me or his dad or a good friend, my dad thought my son was in his house with bad people demanding money. I never convinced him that he wouldn't do that. That was a phase of dementia now we are in the falling faze again. Good luck and keep us posted.
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I worry when people are black-and-white about stuff like "drugging," as if one could simply decide on principle that therapy is ok and meds are not. Paranoia can come from a bunch of possible sources; it sounds like there are old mental health issues here but also some new ones and certainly a new degree, so something is up in your mom's brain. Waking up at night and so terribly afraid, she's not very happy herself, is she!? As for you, no wonder you want some relief; this situation isn't working. Nursing Homes are a business, and here they are turning down a client -- so that says something about how bad it is. So try to think in terms of everybody having a problem: you, the nurse, your dad, any potential professional facility, AND your mom. Everybody in this story has one thing in common: they all, including your mom, need some professional evaluation of what's going on with her. (Getting someone declared incompetent is possible but very difficult; and it may make it possible for you to get her out of the house but doesn't guarantee where else she can go. In any case, the first steps in that direction would involve getting professional evaluations of your mom anyway, so start there.) Ask your or her doctor, and your local depts on eldercare/aging to find who should be looking at your mom's physical and mental health. Faulty brain chemistry can be hell for the person; skillful interactions can make a big difference (read a book called Talking to Alzheimers, whether you think she has Alzheimers or not), but just talk therapy may not hit the spot.
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