When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

My Mom HAS been throwing temper tantrums with a family friend who has been helping me navigate caregiving and getting Mom to AL (and out of my house). Mom finally figured out how close B and I have become since Mom's stroke. B was Mom's friend before. Now Mom is jealous of our friendship. And guess what - she is now having temper tantrums in front of B. I find this very interesting.

I told B, who is very surprised by this new behavior but not taking it personally, that the real wonder is that we haven't seen a tantrum in over 2 years. My sister saw some when she was taking care of Mom at the very beginning. And Mom made B think it was all my sister. Now B sees how misled she was by Mom.

B says she understands Mom is scared and resentful. But B is also backing off. The usual result when Mom doesn't get her way with people. Mom will soon be at a new AL place and have lots of people to manipulate.

Regarding NPD people being sweet as can be...oh they can be - as long as there is something in it for them! I have had people tell me for years how nice and funny my mom was...and others that just cringe when she was in the room. It all depended on what they could do for her. Some were my friends that I confided in. Mom would be sweet as could be and my friend couldn't believe what would be saying about her. Some of course were men...or my boyfriends - ewww.

Now that she is in AL her choices are pretty limited and she will pick someone to be her "flying monkey" and either do her bidding or just agree with everything she says. Once they don't agree...they're out! They become stupid or whatever. She is currently tuning the manager of the facility into a Flying monkey. She knows we talk - so after about 6 emails back and forth with mom with me trying to smooth things over - she again said my husband hit her so I clarified what happened. She showed the facility manager my email ( not hers of course) and she told me yesterday it seemed a little mean....really?? So she can go around and lie about my husband hitting her and that's ok. Not mad at the FM - but she should know she is being used. I can see mom turning on the tears saying look, look how mean my daughter is! And I'm so nice..I don't understand. Ugh.

They are the best at acting...I believe many actors and actresses are probably narsistic also. Anything to make them look good and you to look horrible. So hard to counter it.

I think one reason my mom is so sweet to me and not nasty is that when I was a kid and young adult, she did get mean. She would get all overwhelmed by life and by the other kids (I'm the oldest) and lash out. She didn't insult us directly but she said things that let you know how difficult her life was, how tired she was, how upsetting everything was to her. Or she threw things in frustration or stomped around the house. If really pushed, like if you yelled back (as an adult) then the direct insults came and the screaming and yelling. Or the pronouncements about God. The last time she did that to me was decades ago. I moved away and came back very rarely after that. Called very rarely, too.

So now I haven't seen any fits or anger since I've been back. I think she knows I will go away if she does them. It doesn't stop the manipulating, though. The sighing and fidgeting in her chair about 20 times before you can't stand it anymore and ask if she's okay. Seeing a commercial on tv and she makes this sound that says volumes and means she wants to do or have whatever the commercial showed. The fact that the one little noise pushes my "please mommy / obligation" button is so frustrating to me. I want to avoid the big nasty tantrum by instinct even though there hasn't been one in years and years.

She will get a bit obstinate and fussy and complain. And my husband picks up on the slights and insults more than I do. It takes me about a day or two to finally realize what she really said! So I'm learning.

Or she complains to others knowing it will reach me. Not about me. About her situation.

I could go on listing things I'm sure everyone here is familiar with. But just know that just because a person might be polite and sweet and a southern lady doesn't mean they aren't doing all they can to get their way.

Ah @ cmcwrink - my mother is the same way -- sweet as meringue on top of the lemon pie, but made up of plenty of lemon underneath.

She tells her caregivers that she can't wait to see me. She treats me well in front of strangers. Shoot she even can treat me well to my face. But then come the emails manipulating me into feeling as though I have wronged her somehow. It's how many master manipulators work - they are masters because they can be ever so sly about it.

Here's an example. I gave my mom a card and a small housewarming gift (a very small basket with some small cadbury eggs and other small candies) when she moved into assisted living. She's by no means out of her mind - in fact she's fully there mentally. She's just unable to take care of herself physically. She thanked me profusely. Then when I got home and called her, she was all upset because I am trying to make her fat. I am supposed to be laden with guilt and assure her that no, I'm not trying to make her fat, then go into a long explanation about how much I love her and it was something I thought she'd like, blah blah blah. This time I didn't fall for it. I told her to throw it away if she didn't want it.

The next visit I took her out for lunch. It was a whole (gasp) $16 for both of us. Again, I was thanked profusely. Got home to a nastygram telling me that I'm trying to take over her life. Again I was supposed to apologize profusely, let her know I love her, etc. etc. etc. That was my last visit - ever.

It can be so subtle, and so underhanded that it can hit you when you least expect it. My mom does not treat everyone like this. I am singled out and have been my whole life. If you asked my brother the Golden Boy, he'd paint a completely different picture of dear old Mom.

mockingbird3... It can't hurt to tell her you love her also (I know you do... she's your mother)... You won't have this regret later.... Blessings...

My mother has narcissistic personality disorder and is very negative about everything. She is in assisted living facility and I am the only one to visit. I have siblings but none of us get along because of her. When I`m sitting next to her I look at her as a stranger. The other day as I was leaving she said to me "I love you", she caught me off guard and I said it back very quietly, I don`t think she heard me. Sadly I do not lovd her and those words were too little too late, she never said that to me growing up. She also has early dementia and depression so I never know what to expect at each visit. She is 84 and tells me that she prays to God to take her, don`t know if she is serious or just wants me to feel bad. I hope.I don`t sound like a bad person but maybe it is time. She has a sad life and I get tired of trying to make her happy. I want to live my life the way I want without feeling guilty, and live where I want like my siblings do, life is too short.

ps.: going to the original question to answer, just how much is your own sanity worth? what, if any, moral obligation is there to stay with a rotten, vicious, nasty individual.
Narcissism runs the gamut from annoying to psychopathic. To Rena, to folk who have never suffered under a narcissist, they find it hard to imagine, or it takes a long while before they realize just how damaging a 'narc' is. Personally, I would have NO contact with yours.
for myself, I have managed to work out a set of boundaries. mom is about 4 on a scale of 10 of narcissim (I think, I have never seen any test to take). If I think she is being 'narcy' I tend to just tune her out.

It really depends on if one is willing to totally walk out, 'adios mom, dad, you are now on your own.'..
You know something? These people generally find a way to take care of themselves. If they cannot, it all can be turned over to the state and the state can put up with the narcissist.
I am familiar if you manage to catch the narcissist dead to rights, or shine the light on some area where they 'stink'. If you do not get angry, the narcissists reaction is almost funny, if sad. They can never be wrong.

@ cmcwrinkl1: You’re quite welcome and I’m glad that my post was able to help you understand your mother better. As I was reading your post I felt as though you were describing my MIL to a T. I especially liked your reference to the “siren song” and trying to resist it. I also am a take charge kind of person and she is not and it is much harder for me to hold myself back as well then to just do things. However since I’m the daughter in law I can only keep the ball rolling so long before my husband and his siblings have to step in. And if they don’t think something is necessary then the ball is dropped and the vicious cycle continues. It’s only been in the last year or so that my husband has noticed just how controlling his mom can be and has even backed away from the situation more. I believe that when I called her out once it really opened up my husband’s eyes to the way she is. I wasn’t even trying to hurt her but wanted her to know how much she had hurt me over the years with things she has said in that selfish, self-absorbed manor.

I'm still reading through all of the responses but I just printed out havefaithingod's post to read and re-read. So very helpful! I've come to realize in the past two years of taking care of my mother in my own home how very spoiled she was as a child. I've been trying to figure out how she became the person she became.

I was somehow led to believe that Mom had a stroke that affected her in such a way that she could do very little for herself beyond basic living activities. Just last week I had three doctors confirm that this did not happen. The stroke did not occur where such behaviors are located in the brain - such as taking initiative, motivation, decision making. Her not doing these things for 2 years, since dad died, are not from the stroke. They are the way she is. Since I was gone from home for about 20 years, I didn't know this about her.

I couldn't see how her "wonderful loving" parents who still try to help her out financially today and did all her life could have created such a selfish and self-absorbed person. Since I myself was neglected as a child, I assumed her opposite childhood would have resulted in a different person. I am finally starting to understand how they spoiled her.

What gets me and that I don't see mentioned when discussing narcissistic people is that my mother is extremely sweet and nice. She doesn't insult or get in your face or say obviously rude things. So it fools you (or me, anyway) and you don't even notice the manipulation and over-obligation and anxiety that she creates by her words and actions. She does nothing, it looks like, and gets everyone to wait on her hand and foot. It's amazing once you see it! It's scary to know how subtle it is. It's exhausting being around her and resisting the siren song pull. To check the temperature in the room and make sure she gets to go to the restroom before the doctor takes her for the cat scan and ask the nurse again when mom can eat and remind the nurses mom hasn't had her evening pills and... and...and. All things Mom is fully capable of. And is reminding me of when no one else is around. But she clams up when a medical person enters the room.

I am take charge. She is not. It is harder for me to hold myself back than to just do it all. But if I do it all, I will burn out and lose myself.

Again, she is charming and sweet and strangers love to do things for her. The family is wary of her. I always wondered why we were all so distant. Now I know. I always blamed my father (inferior to her in her eyes) for their lives of failure and missed chances, but now that he is gone I see how she really is and always has been.

Thank you havefaithingod for your post.

@Debralee isn't that so common in narcissists - make bad decisions, alienate others, stir the pot then expect you to pick up the pieces? Every time I visited my mother would complain that the early morning staff getting her washed and dressed were rough with her. It's a total lie of course. She just wanted to sleep in and be served breakfast (immediately) at a time of her choosing and she hoped I'd go after the staff so she'd get her way. Of course I didn't take the bait and she's shut up about it now.

@ Debralee: Very well stated and that is why my MIL is now in a nursing facility being cared for by total strangers. We visit but do not have assume responsibility over the situation any longer. Visits are far less stressful even when she guilt trips my husband into being at her beck and call. He has learned that we too have life and she is in good hands and will just need to wait her turn a bit.

Debralee, you said it! I am so frustrated and stressed out over what you described - "...parent wants control of all the decision making...but expects you to assume all the responsibilities..." I have a somewhat prepared speech just in case it becomes necessary, where I graciously offer to rescind all involvement and let her ask my brother and his wife (who she views with even more contempt than me) to take over. I know she would not agree to it, but it would feel SO GOOD to say it, and it may stop the digs and insults, albeit temporarily.

When your parent wants conrol of all the decision making in their lives, but expects you to assume all the responsibilities on those choices. When you are completely emotionally drained by a mother who has always been emotionally immature and just keeps wanting to suck you dry. When you look at your parent with such contempt and disgust for their lifetime negative behavior and all you feel is anger and hatred. When a parent attempts to make you the choosen one because it is easier and more convenient for them. When no matter what you do, your parent will never be happy and has no consideration for your feelings and only concern for themselves. When no matter how many boundaries you put up or distance yourself, your parent keeps attempting to dig their talons into your throat in their endless neediness. These elderly parents belong in a place that will keep them safe, but cared for by strangers who have no emotional attachment to these self-centered abusive behavioral individuals.

New2Dementia...especially when they don't remember what you've done for them :(

My N mother (Parkinsons, stroke & dementia) has been in a NH for 18 months but that didn't stop her getting at me on a daily basis. Since changing my phone number and going low contact I'm a couple of months into recovery. I've felt quite ill over the winter, not done much of anything and slept a lot but I'm slowly getting better.

Today is her birthday (88). Increasingly filled with dread at the thought of visiting, I decided to get it over with and yesterday visited with flowers, along with two shopping bags of chocolates and specialty cookies. She was delighted with all the stuff and was quite pleasant. That lets me out for a while. Next time, depending on how I feel, I may just drop her stuff at the admin office for them to deliver as "I have a cold coming" {evil grin}.

Anybody with a NPD parent of any degree, needs to start every day with these reminders:

1. I am entitled to my own feelings and thoughts. They are real and valid because I am real and valid on my own.
2. I am allowed to be tired, angry, frustrated, and grumpy.
3. I don't have to change to make my NPD parent happy, satisfied, quiet, grateful, or anything else.
4. I am entitled to happiness without anybody's permission.
5. I am going to express myself however I like, be it the way I dress, what I eat, where I go, and who I associate with - without anybody's permission.
6. I will leave the house/room/phone call when I feel uncomfortable, threatened, irritated, mad, put down, criticized, or anything that is not positive.

Reminding yourself of these things to start with *will* make a difference in your thoughts, your approach, and your ability to protect yourself from harm - mental/emotional harm as well as physical harm. The more often you can successfully detach and protect yourself (what I think of as winning), the more confidence you gain in yourself.

Have a plan in mind every time you have to have an interaction with your NPD person. For me, to visit my mom - which I dread every time - I leave all extra personal belongings in my car trunk. The less I take in there, the less I have to gather up in a hurry. I have had to turn and walk out more than once. I don't stand there and give her warnings. When she starts in, out I go. I also have a time limit on how long I'll stay, and it's never more than 15 minutes or so. It sure would be nice to have long lunches and reminisce together over cookies & tea with old pictures, but that is wishful thinking and ridiculous on my part to expect it.

I hope this is helping. We have to stick together to keep it together!
::hugs::

Sandwich...I think I have said this before - not sure - but I think our mothers are the same person! Omg! When you said flirting with the doctor I just cringed! My mother was so ridicules when we went to her cardiologist. She put on such a good show too that he asked me what it was going to take to send her home! I was so angry! I told him when she stopped firing people and he was welcome to take her home with him! She went on and on saying HE wants her to go home. I never took her back to him.

If I say nothing with my mother, she walks past me and like the last time - flicks my necklace and said "is THIS NEW??" and gives me this accusatory look. If I just say simple comments, she railroads over me, if I try to reason, she goes over the same thing over and over and over again. Now that I have said " this isn't going anywhere I will come back when you are in a better mood" it's now WHATS wrong with you?? Ugh.

She was obsessing about wanting an iPhone, then it was a toaster oven, now she's back to going home, why, why, why. It it so much worse than when my kids were little. And somehow when I set up her iPad to email - now she just figured out how to see my shared stream of photos...I have no idea how that happened! I think the only way to adjust that is to get back on her iPad and make adjustments. I hadn't synced them. Of course she saw a picture of our new big dog at her house - outside - and is flipped out.

I don't know how any of you cared for these narcissists either in your home or theirs! There truly is a special place in heaven for you!

Being a caregiver to a narcissistic parent with health issues is a thankless job.

@Sandwich42 hit the nail on the head with this post "Living my life my way, being my own person, validating my own needs and limits is not bad. If you give away your individuality to these narcissicsts, you will become a hollow shell of a person. They will use you up and spit you out when you're no longer valuable. Even if they are your mother. So understand the deal - you don't have to give. They don't have to get from you. There's no contract here. There is no reformation."
Thank you.

@New2Dementia, @Emjo, you are absolutely right. My mother and my brother try their best to throw me off balance. The best case scenario is if I get angry, but making me cry is second best. Also, both say extraordinary lies! And both are passive aggressive. Keeping your calm is the best and then, try to get out of the room or off the phone ASAP. Hugs.

@Emjo, This is true in my case: "They count on that they will drive you to tears or on the defensive." Responding to my mother only makes things worse in my case. I just have to say nothing. Engaging her only adds fuel to her need for whatever it is that drives her narcissistic self. We have tried reasoning, talking calmly, and giving her a piece of our minds. We now realize that she has always been this way and will go to her grave this way. As her dementia progresses, this behavior will most likely get worse.

I just came to read the forum and sandwich42 I can't believe what you just wrote. Reason being, is I just came back from visiting an AL place and it was beautiful. I never knew how bad off I was until I sat down with the director, and she asked me what brought me here. As I explaining to her the water works begin. She and her whole staff were super sweet and just let me pour my heart out. But my husband just said the same thing you did does she want a 1 bedroom or studio, not does she want to go there - it does seem heartless in a way and I feel guilty but yet I know its the right thing. The ladies at the AL sat with me and told me after 4 years of caregiving for both my parents by myself it was time for me to take care of me. They said they would take care of my Mom, my Dad is across the street in the nursing home so this is ideal just walk across the street and she can visit with him whenever she wants to. But you are right this is the only way, I just hope my Mom will see that I love her, and worried about her and only want to help her instead of abandon her. I am hoping if she will not do this for herself she will do it for me - maybe in time she will know that I only wanted to help her. I also know I need to help me too. I took alot of posters advice and just picked up Karyl McBrides - "Will I Ever Be Good Enough" I only read 2 pages and begin to cry so I know it will be a box of kleenex book! The AL wants me to bring my Mom by tomorrow morning, they think if we all sit down that they can help me convince my Mom she will love it there. I pray for strength and guidance in the morning!

I see a lot of people basically asking a common question - how do I get myself out of this? Here's my two cents & how I did it. I dropped the guilt, ripped the bandaid off, and all the bad stuff that was predicted to happen did not happen.

You have to start making decisions about what is good for YOU, not necessarily mom. I put my mom in an AL facility because it was bad for ME for her to live with us and she certainly couldn't live alone anymore. It was not up for her approval or readiness. The decision she got to make was which apartment do you want - the one on this side or that side? She was not asked if she wanted to move or where she wanted to move into because it was not a choice. It sounds heartless, but I didn't really care if she was ready. It's happening and she's paying. I picked out the place, did the paperwork, and she got to see it after.

A lot of senior transition advice says to let the senior have decision making ability and exposure to choices so you have their buy-in all the way through. Well that's fine for normal people working with a rational grown up, but it doesn't work with an NPD parent because this will turn into a drama that never ends. If you wait for a change to be OK with mom, you'll be dead first.

You get yourself out of this situation with planning and decision making. It's harder with siblings who may have been designated as the "good ones" who never see this side of mom, but if they aren't going to step in and take over 100%, they can jolly well butt out.

If you don't have Power of Attorney, then the sibling with POA can deal with mom. In this situation, remove yourself. Just go. Drop mom off on the front step of the person with POA and drive away. Seriously. It sounds theatrical, but a lot of life with a NPD is very theatrical. I'm lucky that I don't have any siblings, but there is an awful lot of drama posted on this site that involves them.
Maybe one is used to having all the power, but doing none of the work. The only way to change things is to change them. It can't be some long drawn out gradual journey that waits on everybody involved to be 100% ok with every little thing before the next thing can happen. Rip that bandaid off. Everybody will adjust. Or they won't. So what. What's the worst thing that can happen to you? Everybody has a snit and doesn't speak to you for a while? You get to claim your life back? You get to rest? Maybe go out, find a hobby, see friends, have a clean house for once? Get a good night's sleep perhaps.

How much is enough? Any amount is too much. Be prepared for the biggest brattiest hissy fits imaginable when you put personal boundaries in place and won't cave in. It will be spectacular fireworks (narcissistic rage), so just be prepared but don't react and don't give in! I just start laughing and do things the way I need to anyway. That really cheeses mom off.

I would see my own NPD/BPD mother in the street than take her into my home again. 3.5 weeks last October was ENOUGH. All of us were nearly suicidal. Our peaceful refuge from the world was upside down with this mean, petulant, demanding bully in it. We moved her into her senior apartment, and I have not let her set foot in my house again. I won't do that to myself, my husband, or my children because she is so toxic. I *still* can't get the smell of her White Shoulders cologne out of the carpet. That smell makes me want to barf because it's associated with her and her crazy stunts.

She was an over-pampered child due to an illness in the early 1940s, and has expected the world to carry her around like Cleopatra ever since. She has a medical file a foot thick and also used to change doctors frequently if they told her to lose weight, exercise, or basically do anything proactive to better her condition. If they didn't cater to her delicate flower persona, and let her flirt and act like a coy little girl, then she wouldn't see them again. I felt so icky after I figured all this out because it's a total lack of adult dignity. It's embarrassing to watch in person. She really puts on a show.

Now, she is a filthy old woman who choses to be this way, but she is in a safe facility. I won't go over there to cook or clean up after her, or clean her person. It's her security deposit that will be lost, not mine. I guess her outsides are finally reflecting how rotten her insides have always been.

I think the guilt we feel as the children of these people is guilt that comes from an imaginary parent we never actually had. The mother I mourn and grieve never existed. If I had that mother, and did things the way I do them now, I would definitely have cause to feel guilty. But I don't have that mother and I don't have anything to feel guilty over. Living my life my way, being my own person, validating my own needs and limits is not bad. If you give away your individuality to these narcissicsts, you will become a hollow shell of a person. They will use you up and spit you out when you're no longer valuable. Even if they are your mother. So understand the deal - you don't have to give. They don't have to get from you. There's no contract here. There is no reformation. There is no rehabilitation or changing of ways. I see that mom's bills get paid out of her account and that she has groceries & laundry gets done. That's all I'm in for. No more. I'm thinking of giving up the grocery runs in favor of a delivery business we have locally.

Dear MizVic, thank you for the hug and I sent you one too. =) I now understand what you meant. I also see very clearly that you are a wonderful, warm, caring, and sensitive person.
I am so glad you found this mentor. I had my dad for a short while; he died very young, but he really cared for me and loved me. Then I met my husband when I was very young, only 16. And I met his parents who were wonderful people; and that has helped me a lot. Last but not least, my maternal grandmother was a source of wisdom and love for me.
Take care and lets keep helping each other. Hugs

I've done pretty well, all things considered, with balancing my mother's need for increased oversight with my own need for more distance. Having said that, though -- just yesterday, I called for my now regular 5 minute, twice monthly phone call, and scheduled a daylong visit with her in the next several weeks. I'm noticing already that I'm going into that pre-visit funk. I'm doing all this mental planning and list-making in order to make it the most productive use of my time, knowing that it will be SO stressful and unpleasant. The odds of my making a positive difference in her life are very slim. I'm anticipating her moodiness, her digs, and my own impatience at her attempts to appear "with it" when she is so clearly NOT. Sigh... the AL facilities that I visited late last year contact me from time to time, asking how things are going, and all I can say is that everything re: moving her out of her home is on hold until something catastrophic occurs. I'm on pins and needles, waiting for that moment.

I found this article today while my mother was on the telephone with her sister (that also has dementia and NPD) delivering her daily dose of negative talk about me.
thenarcissistinyourlife/psychologically-controlling-and-invasive-narcissistic-mothers/
Its horrible being a caregiver to a mother with Dementia and NPD.
I am now seeing how physically distancing myself is the only way for me to save myself. I haven't figured out how I can get just a few hours just a few days a week as my mother refuses to listen to her doctors and also refuses outside help to come into her home.

Mizvic, when I first started posting comments on this site I was attacked a few times. Didn't mean any harm. And some times I did the attacking. It is all part of growing. Now I am not so prickly nor am I so sensitive because I realize that a lot of what I hear and say is slanted by the abuse I received as a child. But because of all of the nice people on this site and all of the helpful books I have read, all of the discussions I have been involved in and just read about, I have changed a great deal in the past four or five years. I see things a little differently now and realize some people take offense because that is what they have always had to do to survive. It just takes time and understanding.