When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

looloo i completely get what you're saying...it wasn't okay to have my own opinions, ideas, feelings...did your mom allow you to have thoughts and feelings at all? Mine would always say "you shouldn't think that way, or 'you shouldn't feel that way.." it caused me untold harm throughout my life until now as I come out of the fog, so to speak. Have you read up on NPD?

cmcwrinkl1, maybe it was a good thing you moved out...were both your parents narcissistic? I can't remember from prior posts.

Mom is completely Jeckyl Hyde today...she buttered me up so I would go to the dept store and buy her an outfit...I returned and she quickly escalated into an evil person once she didn't like the outfit...and once I didn't do her bidding.

Then she wanted to talk about Comfortkeepers...that the people arent' good enough..(she refers to them as the fat one and the skinny one) LOL...i said i don't want to discuss it and she flipped out...'you don't care about your mother...you have no sympathy for me....I told her i will not feel sorry for her....that sent her through the roof!! she turned abusive and I asked her why she thought i didn't care...(my therapist taught me to ask questions when she gets nuts..) She then said "i'm ordering you out of the house"...the look on her face was UGLY!! I've never seen her so ugly before...

I think she had a glass of wine when I was out...She's on narcotics and that might explain why she turned ugly...

I feel like an abused animal...I can't believe how quickly she can turn...I am now downstairs after telling her i won't put up with her behavior...on the way downstairs, she said "God help you". and that I was a horrible daughter...I reminded myself that she's nuts and am not letting it bother me, or trying not to...It still hurts like hell.

Any ideas on what to do when you're being abused...leaving the room works until she needs something...

Now she's pounding on the floor to get my attention...WACKO!

If those are the two types, then my parents were 'ignoring'. Though we did have constricting rules. I was not allowed to wear pants til 8th grade. Couldn't cut my hair until I was 15. Asking to shave my legs was full of drama. No dances in school. Weird stuff like that. Dad made those rules. Mom pretended to disagree but she didn't fight him about them.

I'm learning Mom is very good at pretending to agree or disagree depending on the situation.

Smitty, from what I've read, it's 'engulfing' and 'ignoring'. My mother didn't ignore exactly--she actually hovered quite a bit when I was a young child, especially re-school stuff. But she was fundamentally disinterested, or she actively disliked, my individuality. And that got worse as I got older. She is a 'cerebral' narcissist, and seemed to care mainly about 'intelligence.' Was I bright, or highly intelligent, or gifted, or successful? And how did that compare to others? She has always seemed to have a need to feel cheated, betrayed, let down -- by life in general, by her children in particular. It did become a self-fulfilling prophecy, for sure. A total no-win situation.

Smitty, my mother was mostly pampered by her grandparents and parents as a child. As an adult, her grandmothers and parents and even her younger sisters pampered her and paid for many things. I'm still trying to understand the relationship she and my father had. But I'm learning that what money he ever manipulated out of people he often spent on her/them. I know it's kind of confusing. For most of my childhood my parents racked up debt and my grandparents helped with personal loans for big items like cars, a house, to start a business. By the time I was in high-school, the ground was cracking beneath them and utilities were being cut off and friends brought us food, clothing, toilet paper.

I moved out at 17 and shortly after it all caught up with them. They lost the house, moved their 5 remaining kids into a 2 bedroom mobile home. I was on my own. About 7 years later, two of my brothers, in their early 20s, bought a double wide for the family. My parents were supposed to buy it from them after a few years. They never did. Last year, when the double-wide was foreclosed, my brothers' credit and finances took a huge beating.

I have only connected all the dots this year. I spent my life believing my parents were unlucky and a little bit irresponsible. But now I see that they were grossly irresponsible and even manipulative and refused to take care of anyone or even themselves and luck had nothing to do with it.

cmcwrinkl1, did your father pamper her? I know there are two types of NPD, engulfing and what's the other? Sounds like your mom is the other type?

Sounds like you were definitely parentified, her role given to you. My mom did the same to me although she didn't neglect me...She cooked and shopped, etc. and worked hard to make a nice home for dad and I...but she treated me like her counselor and that caused me to lose myself and not have a normal childhood...

Don't we as caregivers, assume the same role reversal? I am angry about that and because i'm disabled, really can''t take on any other job and don't want to...I'm good at it, after all, I've had a lot of practice!!!

Smitty, when my brothers have told my mom in the past that they didn't feel loved by her, she couldn't understand that. "I don't know why you all don't feel loved. I always felt my mother loved me, even when she was mad at me. I love you all so much." This was the clue to me that finally helped me see she was pampered while we were neglected. She thinks that saying I love you and having happy feelings about us equals love, I guess.

She is incapable of understanding that by not taking care of her children's needs, by letting her oldest daughter (me) babysit all the time, by not buying them basics like clothes and food and beds and keeping them safe, by not taking them places and playing with them, that they never felt loved. Cooking meals, often obviously stressed about it, and punishing them when they fight isn't love. Having her 20 year old sons buy her house and then never do anything to move that obligation off of them, even when she was making a moderate income, is not how you love your children.

So yes, she won't get it. I don't even try to tell her.

Sad1daughter,

that's alot of abuse to take...good for you to get out of that environment and live your life...

my mom is sugary nice because she wants an audience telling her how sweet she is...at the transitiional care unit, everyone thought she was so sweet, it killed me every time I heard it...it made me SO angry knowing she is that way to the outside world but not to her own family (me).

cmcwrinkle1, I guess I've learned not to ask for much because i know she could care less, although when I mention I need glasses and can't afford them, she offers to help out...On my birthday a week ago, she gave me $200 cash and picked out a bday card on her own...but never gave it to me...last night, I finally pulled it out of her papers and said i would open it...She said she didn't put it there and I said I didn't either...oh well, she's always right.

Today I feel sad because i am living with her and because of my fibromyalgia I don't feel like going out...so I am called upon to answer the other caregiver's questions and it's all about mom...so I'm going out anyway to save my sanity..

Sure, she says she loves me and i'll never know how much..but i've told her that I've never felt loved by her and it makes her cry.

I

Cmc - you are right - nice is a red flag! There is a deadly hook behind it.
Mizvic - you are fortunate that your mother apologized - the only apology I have ever received was when she got us lost driving and I finally said I was going a different way - she said " well, I guess you maybe could have been right." Lol! Almost choked on those words!
Heart2 heart - it would be awesome if "these" older people get nicer as the age...unfortunately with my mothers stroke and now lack of any filter - she is a walking, talking hornets nest. Stings anyone who gets in her way or disagrees with her. Someone on another site told me it is because she is scared - however for the last 2 years I have been spoken to by her worse than anyone in my life. I have been verbally abused - called every name in the book, hit and hung up on. Told she hate me last time. Sorry - just not going to take it anymore - I have not seen her since January - and dread the thought of seeing her again. Just because I had the unfortunate luck of having her egg fertilized by my wonderful dad - I am not responsible for her happiness and to be at her beck and call. I am 58 and have a wonderful husband and 4 great kids...they are my family. It's sad that I don't feel anything for her anymore - just pity.

She is in her own h**l - and honestly - she put herself there. She tormented my dad for at least 30 years, abused him verbally and physically when he had Parkinson's - and withdrew treatment when he was dying - out him in the worst rest home in the county - even tho he could afford the best - saying " they are nice to me"! His care was horrible and he died alone. My daughter will never forgive her for that. No one sees her - her very few friends are tired of her constant complaining - it is awful - but no one wants to go. She created this hell and is fighting everyone now. I can't imagine what it is like in her brain...

Whew- sorry - guess I needed to get rid of that toxic waste!

Not sure that will happen due to her Narcissism, Heart2Heart, but the dementia mat change things as it progresses. I have to protect my emotional health, she is mean 90% of the time and goads me into crying often, then calls me a cry baby. I get that pitiful "awwww" comment and it makes me so angry! It's like she really wants to hurt my feelings, something I will never understand.

She gets a new chance to be nice every day. That's the way I have to do this, one day at a time!

It's taken me a lifetime to learn that mom is nice when she is trying to get something and no one is asking anything of her. Nice is a red flag. It reels you in. Once you make it clear you need her or want her to do something and she doesn't want to, the nice stops. Beware of the niceness!

MizVic... so sad when you feel it's become competitive... But, it may surprise you if your mother should treat you better as time goes by... Some older people get 'softer' as they age... Give it a chance, because she is your mother... just a thought.

Mom was so mean to me when I brought her a wonderful meal for Easter Sunday, I walked out saying I would not be back for a while, probably would not see her for the next week.

I think it really scared her because she called me and apologized that afternoon! lol The next day when I came back she handed me an ample amount of money plus her credit card to fill my van with gas. I humbly accepted, knowing full well it was not because she cares, she needed to keep me reeled back in.

She doesn't realize how well I have come to know what she is about, and that when she is nice it is to get her way.

It doesn't make me stay though. If she's mean I am outta there! She says oh sure run out! And I say yep! See ya! lol

Yup, sad1daugher, I know what you mean...it's like they think they're on the throne and if anyone doesn't do their bidding, off to the chopping block they go!

Smitty - I had also just said the same thing about my mother...ugly on the inside. How sad for all of us.

I have found my mother is only nice when she wants something or it will benefit her in some way. It is never because she chooses to be. Before all our many blow outs in the last 6 months - I would see her one day and she was nice - go back and I had purchased the wrong cookies, or the store didn't have her precious Almond Joys....uh oh! It can go so wrong in an instant. I do know one thing I had never done is match her glare - not with aa glare but hold eye contact with the foulest look I have ever seen in a another person. The day I did that she instantly went from attack mode to victim - it was quite disconcerting. That is when I knew she was mentally ill. Too bad it took me so long to figure it out...oh well.

cmcwrinkl1, you were RIGHT!!

it's like a switch went off inside her and WHAM, she turned into a monster during dinner...I set a boundary that I need to put her in her PJs so I could be done by 6 which we have agreed to for a few years...she complained that I was being 'short' with her and said 'oh, and it's always about you!," Can you believe it? Sure you can. LOL. I was the selfish one who didn't care about her when i've been focusing on her all day? I don't think so.

I asked her how I could have said it better...and she tried to change the subject...HA!!! I told her 'well you should find another daughter'...that felt good...then she said...'take your worries and go downstairs.' I feel sorry for her...she's a powerless miserable ugly person and she has NO idea how she treats me...

I feel like i'm in a living nightmare that never ends...but i'm thankful for the insight I've gained by this thread and other resources. We're all in this together and it's a huge blessing!

Oh Smitty, you and cmcwrinkl1’s comments have resurrected a few things that I hadn’t really forgotten, but get confused about so easily. Your Mom spoke in 2nd person. My Mom angrily (actually in a rage) always threatened me and siblings “Never ever use the word I.” In contrarian playful cat-play mode, she inflicted emotional and physical pain, then told us how rotten we were for taking it and/or reacting and/or going numb – loving her final authority of putting us in Coventry for days (slammed her bedroom door and stayed there incommunicado for days while poor Dad cowered and enabled her eating). She smoked continuously, insisting on closed rooms and cars, and punished anyone who objected, big time. Such as her abandoning us for days or threatening to disinherit us. Then lecture us for hours and hours about how we could turn around and be better. We, helpless girls, believed her and didn’t believe other mothers were actually kind and different, because Mom told us they were worse. She told us continuously how the outside world was a condemned pit, and any friends we attempted to make were interpreted by Mom as being evil and coming from evil parents. As an adolescent, I began to see my Mom’s 3-D face, emptied out like a Halloween pumpkin, spinning around. After her death, her face filled the sky for two years. I was very frightened of her. But I cannot shake the “inner conscientiousness” (parentification and hypersensitivity) she trained me in well, because she was Mensa-level intelligent and could twist and turn things so that even our ministers and school counselors bowed to her. It actually has served me very well in the work world. But I’ve had to become quite an actress in life, first of all visualizing what a normal person might react with or do, then try to emulate that. Then pretend, because I truly have a very hard time finding my own feelings. I look to others to show the way. This forum is remarkable. Every word written here speaks to me and strengthens me. I need to post soon about a stubborn lurking fear. I now cognitively understand that guilt is good when it provides awareness to learn. But it is horrific when used manipulatively. Smitty and all, so very glad you landed here. The “When is Enough” question maybe can begin to be answered when you find a different tribal custom. You don’t just accept abuse. You all are a new tribe for me. Thank you.

Smitty, yes, it is very confusing. This has been my mom's MO for years now, even pre-dementia: She tells me how lovely it will be to see me when I go visit. I arrive. She is in a grumpy mood, either being critical of everyone around her, or throwing herself a pity party, or both. I get through the visit (I haven't been anything other than completely calm and polite with her for the last 20 years now), but leave, finally, exhausted and glad to have 'gotten it over with.' Per her request, I call when I arrive back at home, and she tells me what a lovely time she had, thanks so much for coming, and maybe next time I can visit a little sooner, for a little longer? Yeah, RIGHT. I'd find it totally confusing. Now, I just roll my eyes and stop trying to make sense of nonsense.

There may be a storm brewing "off stage" so to speak.

This past weekend, my Mom was super pleasant and nice and chatty and helpful. A few days later, I get kicked off the caregiving team because Mom had been talking to my sister for over a week, complaining about the person helping me with Mom's arrangements.

Now I know that during those pleasant times between Mom and me, she was talking to others, getting them all up in arms about the present situation. Not trying to be a negative Nelly, but your mom might be nice because some plan of hers is working and about to be sprung.

Today my mom has been very nice to me...Confused! Maybe she's just having a good day and I'm waiting for the shoe to drop...maybe it's because i haven't criticized her...i'm not going to waste time analyzing it...anyone else get confused with this?

New2dementia, it rings true for all of us i think...you can never win, no matter how hard you try...that's how i feel anyway.

Growing up, I had the same experience as you Sandwich42...she controlled what i did, and was overprotective...it got to the point that i was afraid to grow up because she taught me to fear the outside world. She always thought people were looking into our kitchen window all the time...so paranoid! She took everything people said personally and of course, dumped it on me, as if I were her counselor, a child, d**n it!!!

She taught me to be just like her...she even spoke in 2nd person...She would express her opinions, feelings using 'you statements. No wonder I was brainwashed...Do you know how brainwrecking that is to a child? She told me how to think and feel...'you shouldn't think that way,,,'you shouldn't feel that way'

This morning, I got a call from the care agency nurse who told me in order for the aides to administer her pain creme (has narcotics in it), she has to manage all her meds too...,mom has been setting up her meds for years. When I told her the nurse is going to set up her meds, she had a cow. I tried to remind her we already agreed to it but she started to have a fit...She is the boss, after all.

I am only living here because the secondhand smoke at my apartment made me sick and it's smoke free here. So far I'm staying sane...thank God!

This one thread has been life changing for me. While I knew dad was a narc, I wasn't sure what mom was. Now that he's gone, and I've read this site, I've finally figured it out. The post about pampering at the start of this thread has opened so many doors in my memory and connected all the dots. I see how she got to this point.

And now I see through the behavior. It does make it hard to be in the same room with her right now, but since my BIL and sister kicked me off the care-giving team, I guess I don't have to worry about that for a bit until everyone cools down.

My parents were all about each other. Totally focused on each other. Begged family and friends for money and then spent it, not on their 6 kids or the house that was foreclosed or the business they were supposed to be running, but on each other and trips and "missions" and "calls from God" and who knows what else. And yet, mom is STILL able to get money from people. She's got her hooks in my sister who's pulling my BIL's chain and now they are committing to covering mom's expenses until her government benefits kick in. (And also, my parents refused to pay taxes and were audited - and now she's on government assistance. Hypocrites, too.) My sister has 2 kids, one income, is trying to buy a house. But sure, she'll subsidize mom's lifestyle.

Yes the posts have to be long ... this is a complicated experience.

And I purposely lower case mom and dad.

BTW - these posts need to be long - we have not had a chance to speak for ourselves probably our whole lives! It feels good to get out these toxic stories and share them - as we all understand. Lets let all the junk out of the bag so we can be healthy!

New2Dementia - looloo is right - you have the medical team in agreement that your mother can't take care of herself - you can get the POA from that. You will need at least 2 different doctors letters stating that. I am fortunate with the fact that my father had made me the POA years ago - and it was never changed - I think it is from 1987! That with my letters from the doctors - I was able to get her placed, get the finances in order and with my name with the trust on it and just generally take care of what is needed. Fun? Nope - not even a little bit. But - at least your mother can be cared for and she wont be out spending her money foolishly. A friend of mines mother is doing just that - has gone through $20,000 on just clothes (I hinted I was the same size - as she always dressed cute! - evil laugh). Also - in looking for a place - be really careful about making sure they can deal with the narcissism - have to have at least one strong personality there that can take care of that - Where my mom is - they are all a little too nice - so I have really had to be the bad guy - which had take our relationship to a new level of low. That along with my finally going to counseling (which I highly recommend) and saying NO firmly has turned her into a monster, unfortunately. The rage. The only thing keeping my mom calm - is there are about 4 girls that work there that somehow have my mom in the palm of their hands! They are sweet to her and give her the attention she needs to keep her calm. If any of them cross her - that's it - they are out. So - they do handle her nicely - and as long as I stay away and buy her the junk she wants - it usually stays ok.

It is a hard spot you are in - get a good lawyer to give you advise on elder care and contact a CPA to help you with the money part - that all should be paid for by mom's money - not yours or your brother.

Hugs to you - and my thoughts are with you!!

New2Dementia - I feel for you, I really do! I was 18 had my license bought my own car, paid my own insurance had a good job but my mother decided that I could not drive so she took my car for 3 years and drove me back and forth to work until I was 21! When I complained all h**l broke loose! My Dad wrecked his truck, by hitting a cow and got a job in Austin, while we were in Houston. So my Mom said she had to have my car again bec she was not going to be stranded! So I finally got it back at 22 thanks to my brother! Was 26 had a 12 curfew, wanted to get married at 26 was forbidden made me put my wedding off for a year, told me when I got pregnant not congrats just pray for a girl, when it was a boy said well now you will be totally screwed and then 3 more boys later everytime pray for a girl and then was pissed when it was a boy! I could go on and on, but I know alot of people like these post to be shorter...its so hard sometimes when all the words come tumbling out. Anyway in my first session with my therapist she made me realize that I was put on the earth for a purpose and that I am not responisble for my moms life and just bec I am a girl I deserve a life too. My Mom is 84 I tried yesterday to get her into a assisted living, she refuses to go and my POA doesn't hold up, so now my therapist said see her only once a week instead of 4 to 5 and make her pay for outside help. She is trying to play the guilt card with me, but I am standing strong for the first time and it feels really good!!! Hugs!!!!!!!!!

New2dementia: you've got a really rough situation. It sounds like, with the recommendation and support of her medical team, you can get the ball rolling on having her declared incompetent. It's so terribly sad (and lately for me, enraging), to be in such a no win situation, with your mother never willing or able to appreciate you. Hugs, let us know how the whole process goes, ok?

All above posts are correct. The person can have the best of everything and still complain to the end of time. My Mother is like this and my Father hates you more and more with any help you give him. There is no winning no matter what you do.
ONLY losing. Time to give up but eaiser said than done. I know.

@Sandwich42 hit the nail on the head with this:
"Nothing has ever been or ever will be good enough for a narcissist. Stop chasing that fox because the hunt never ends."
I can say from my personal experience, this is true.