Does anyone have experience going Gray Rock when you can't go no contact?

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Does anyone have experience going Gray Rock when you can't go no contact?

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Mom is 91, has moderately severe dementia and NPD. Brother, 60, is former meth addict, NPD, Borderline PD, TBI, and has moved in with her. He is the type of narcissist that can talk for 1 hour without taking a breath and doesn't even know it. He uses anger, self-pity and charm as forms of manipulation to get my mother to do whatever he wants. He is extremely competitive and jealous of anyone who has even a little bit of my mom's attention. I choose not to go no contact due to being in charge of her trust (there is a large inheritance that I don't want my brother to steal). I am working with a therapist who says I should study Gray Rock and recommends that as the way to go. Can anyone share some insight or tips from personal experience with me? Thank you

Alzheimer's & Dementia Narcissism Relationships

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I had never heard of this so I looked it up.
Interesting way to deal with this situation.
It might be worth a try.
The difficult part I think is consistently carrying out the correct responses and having the correct "affect". That can be tough to do when you want to argue with this person.
If you try it you will have to stick with it for a while to determine if it is working or not. He will also try to find new ways to push your buttons so you have to be consistent.
Like I said, can't hurt to try.
If this works let others know as it might be of help.

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This is very true, that it is so hard to master the affect. Because we are only human and want to fight back. You have to be in such great control of yourself.

(5)

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I never heard of this. Off to google.

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Try "gray rock" in the search function on the menu bar- this has been discussed elsewhere within this forum. Interesting posts and links.

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My GOSH!!

I was doing exactly that with my toxic brother and didn't even KNOW it. I had learned the technique during some therapy sessions, but my therapist didn't call it "grey rock".

You cannot cure this type of personality problem, mostly because they do not WANT to be 'cured' and part of what makes them so hard to deal with is that they have zero interest in anyone else. They are right, all the time, no matter what evidence you may have to the contrary, they are always right.

I didn't fight with OB (he has since passed, and had such PEACE after he died. How sad to die and have maybe 3 people who cared) I just listened to him rant. And, yes, a one hour, nonstop talk session wasn't unusual. I actually recorded one, just out of curiosity sake--played it back to DH who was pleading with me to turn it off NOW. Just random nonsensical blathering.

He was able to talk my parents out of the equity in their home, their silverware (real silver, people don't really have that anymore) coin collections, Indian artifacts, cars, and simply the cash in their wallets. And somehow they bought into all the lies and stuff he told them. It was beyond sad.

He was never 'cured' although he had plenty of psychiatric help. The only was we in the family could deal with him was by being, well, rude. we'd call him out on his lies and didn't support him with anything beyond maybe a meal and $20 here or there.

My mom is a little bit that way.She isn't very sympathetic and does most things to 'look good'. I have to sometimes take long breaks from her. I mean, 6+ months of no contact.

Do go google this. It is a pretty effective way to handle the narcissists in your life, and believe me, we all have some.

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Wow, thanks so much for posting about this. I think those who have to learn to deal with personality disordered family and friends can benefit so much from just googling this and watching a short youtube on it. It is a method I think many of us know WORKS with such personalities, when argument certain does NOT work. Please let us know, and experimentation could be fun.

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There is a website called Out of the Fog, which you might find helpful. It is for dealing with people who have personality disorders. Do a search for it on the internet.

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What a great resource, thank you!

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I deal with my own toxic brother in this way. He made a scene in the hospital, calling me a murderer while my father was on his deathbed. It took all the self-restraint in the world not to answer him, but I instinctively knew not answering and letting him hang himself with his own rope was the right thing to do. Since then, he has sent me numerous nasty, lengthy communications through different channels, demanding to know where "his" money is. If I absolutely have to answer, I speak only to facts. I offer no conjecture and no interest in his rantings. But for several months now I have not answered him and it has died down. I have all the communication and my responses or lack thereof saved. A judge might be interested someday. The behavior will stop if you do not reward it. Your reacting to it is their reward. Yell and scream IN PRIVATE. Write responses to him without sending them to help handle your own feelings. You must be cool as a cucumber in your actual dealings with him at all times. You will feel in complete control, you will safeguard your mental health and completely frustrate him in the process. WIN WIN WIN.

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Your brother's behavior sounds very familiar. My husband and I recently spoke about keeping records, just like you mentioned. Great idea! I have been saving copies of checks that he has had my mother to sign to buy him loads of things. I am going to make copies of my Google calendar to show when I took care of Mom so he can't claim I didn't. I may record his rants. After using Gray Rock, he went from attacking my character to self pity ploys, including telling Mom he wanted to die. He cornered me when I went to her house to pick her up and take her out. I kept a deadpan face, turned around, and ignored him. My mother wanted me to stop and listen to him. I only spoke to her, but said no I am leaving. You can come with me if you want to. She did so. For right now he has stopped texting me (!) but is trying to get ahold of my husband. We agreed we will both go gray rock. I think documentation is vital because I know he will try to take me to court later on. Thank you for your input!

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My answer is very simple and I admit I don't have to deal with the extreme personality issues others have shared. Yet I do have occassions when I can be overwhelmed by some personality issues from some. I simply imagine a gray rock in my hand. All my focus goes to that. I try to then remove myself physically from the space that is being shared by what is causing the need for the gray rock. It may not always work and might take time but in those moments all my concentration is with the gray rock. Each time this happens I tell myself I really need to find an actual suitable rock. Of course I might be tempted to throw it which would negate the whole idea!

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Regardless of the dysfunction, be it dementia or a personality disorder (or both), the last thing you want to do is hand over your power by letting them get a rise out of you. It's awkward at first. Practice makes perfect. I was astonished to discover how well Gray Rock worked with an Alzheimer's mother, whom I didn't think could learn anything, but she did! I began to dodge every provocation, every nasty word by not reacting. No exclamations. No cringing. No dismay. No frowning. No nothing. Not even smiling or laughing. Just pretend you're bored, standing in line at the bank! Each reaction is a reward to them. Don't let them have it. After awhile they move on to someone else, who hopefully knows the Gray Rock method, too. Wishing success for you!

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I just read an article about Alz/dementia and how it's literally impossible for them to be manipulative.........ahem, I wonder who wrote that article? Obviously someone who's never met OUR mothers, that's for sure! I also Googled 'gray rock method' because I'd never heard of it, and learned a lot! What a GREAT IDEA for dealing with toxic people, regardless of their medical diagnosis......toxic is toxic and muscle memory is stronger than ANY dementia on earth. My mother relies on getting a rise out of me and has for SO long that it's now carved into her memory bank. I read the gray rock article to DH before we went over to visit mother yesterday in memory care. She, of course, was hell-bent on pushing all of my buttons, as usual, and DH just kept saying Gray Rock over & over again. She's almost totally deaf so she couldn't hear what he was saying, but I could!! Boy it's HARD to remain totally expressionless, isn't it? LOL. But I did my best and didn't let her get to me. Practice makes perfect, you are absolutely right! I'm glad to have this forum to learn from, and others such as yourself in the same boat, who help me tremendously.

(12)

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Thank you so much to everyone who responded to this question! I had no idea there would be so many responses. Best wishes to all of you! ♥️

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I'd like to thank YOU for posting this question, because it led ME to Google Gray Rock Method and it's extremely helpful, in my opinion. My mother is pretty impossible to deal with and this is an excellent way to go......in fact, I'm going to look for a gray rock outside & carry it with me when I visit her as a reminder! :)

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Does anyone know what causes NPD?

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Although the cause of narcissistic personality disorder isn't known, some researchers think that in biologically vulnerable children, parenting styles that are overprotective or neglectful may have an impact. Genetics and neurobiology also may play a role in development of narcissistic personality disorder.
That's what Google had to say on the subject.

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Clearly there are readers who understand all the acronyms in the initial post but I felt like I was wading in alphabet soup. Thank you to those who spelled out the disorders so I can learn about them.

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Wow very interesting. Wished I had known of this years ago. Will try it! People should be using this method with the current President, IMO...

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Funny about the president, but actually might work quite well in many respects.

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I was brought up to be polite, pleasant to people. Act "engaged" in their conversations.

I too had to google Gray Rock. I like it! Thank you for asking your question!!

Sometimes it's difficult to act interested - now I won't feel I have to, lol.

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Did this for years with children, but did not use the term. Humorous example...
I was tutoring the child of a celebrity who had nannies and housekeepers waiting on them hand and foot. The child took his pet rat out of the cage and attempted to scare me with it. When he got no reaction, he said his nanny always screamed when he did that. With a blank face and monotone voice I said, "I have 2 children. There's nothing you can do that woul scare me."
He put the rat away and got to work.
Thank God it was not a snake. 😜

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👍🏻 LMFAO!!!

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I'd never heard of the gray rock method so thanks for asking about it and to those of you who have explained it. Might even have been used on me already. I do hope it will help you deal with your brother, DofNPDmother.

We have so much to deal with as caregivers & in life in general & need to find ways to cope. This discussion made me think about when it's obvious that someone is using a learned technique on me. If I wasn't so darned angry & frustrated it almost makes me laugh sometimes. At Mom's nursing home, after usually listening politely to me complain or request something, I see the social workers' eyes go blank, they then promise to do whatever they think I want to hear, and then that's the last of it.... until I bring it up again later. Then... Listen politely, Promise, Ignore.... Repeat.

My brother is a doctor. When we were kids he often made a point of taunting & riling me up to the point of tears. As an adult he still does it occasionally, but now he knows when to shift to his Calm Doctor Voice & Demeanor, especially if anyone else is around, so it makes me seem like a raving lunatic. Will definitely try Gray Rock with him.

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DofNPDmother, this sounds serious and extreme and Gray Rock sounds like a great approach for you and your situation - and for many on this thread. However I just want to sound a note of caution. Seven years of caregiving with my Mother swung me back to being an empath from someone who was towards the Narcissistic / Self Absorbed end of the spectrum. It was a kind of redemption - actually it moved me to being self-negating and that needed to be recovered from. I'm saying these things to be frank, as before going "Gray Rock" the people on this thread absolutely need to be sure that they are not dealing with an "empath" or empathetic person who has become a warrior for a loved one's care. I faced 5 years of denial, which I came to realize was strategic denial of Mum's Alz Dem so it would largely not affect their financial situation. But they created a story that it was about me taking advantage of my mother and perhaps being a narcissist or having a personality disorder - I have dyslexia so I'm not neuro-normal. I stayed with my Mother right through till her death, my business went bankrupt but I saw my Mother right through in such a good way that I have no regrets. There was not inheritance so it was not about money. It was just that my Brother's family could not understand why I was doing what I was doing with seemingly nothing to gain. The caregiving was its own reward and transformative. I just say to others reading this - please make sure of the persons motivation or intention before going "Gray Rock." I faced it and I had good intent and it was devastating. I certainly do not mean don't do this with toxic people. But don't be too quick to label people toxic, they might just be getting frustrated trying to communicate something that we are not listening to. This happens all too often in families dealing with the huge challenges of dementia care in a culture that has not yet learnt to support informal caregivers. My best to each of you. I mean no disrespect to the importance of finding healthy ways of dealing with toxic people on this thread.

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"The caregiving was its own reward and transformative."

This is so true, especially recognizing how transformative it can be to try to be altruistic rather than narcissistic. Thank you for this post.

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Can you apply for guardianship, using your brother's documented personality disorders (if they are documented) as grounds for you, rather than he, being named guardian?

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Very important point. People forget about this.

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I looked up Gray Rock on youtube. Angie Atkinson has a helpful video titled Grey Rock: What It Is, How to Use It with a Narcissist. (On the youtube search, type Angie Atkinson Gray Rock.) She goes into detail, including the avoidance of eye contact with the speaker (look at his/her chin or nose or top of head, or doodle, etc.) and use dull, monotone replies that do not provoke response, such as "Uh-huh." She also explains not to let the person know you are using a "technique" as this will cause them to try to make you fail.

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Oh MY Gosh! This lady is So helpful. Thank you so very much for this resource!!! xxx

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The best to you dealing with your family. Your brother sounds like he's dealing off the bottom of the deck to get what he wants from his mom and eventually you, when the time comes. So he's a former meth addict? I wonder how and why he changed.

Thanks for mentioning an unfamiliar term. After googling Gray Rock, the technique sounds effective. If someone is truly addicted to drama, I call them "drama kings" or "drama queens" because to them, harmony is boring. Everything, each situation must contain conflict, ways to demonstrate their emotional power, and many times no money is involved, it's just the satisfaction of "getting their own way," as we as kids used to put it. It's very difficult to be dispassionate, so put on your Helmet of Knowledge, Shield of Protection, and raise the Sword of Truth, ha! Best wishes.

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Interestingly, I believe his narcissistic tendencies were stronger than his addiction. My father passed away when we were in our 20's. My brother was living with my mother and began to deal drugs daily from her home. She could not get him to leave, and at one point he got so angry he had her pinned against a wall and plunged a knife into the wall next to her. She ran in her nightgown up the street. My husband and I were living about 500 miles away at the time. We received a call to learn that she had moved in with a friend. My husband flew down, went to her home to pack her bags, and flew her up to our home. We made a plan to sell our home and literally move in with her so my husband could kick my brother out and keep him out. We did just that. As time went on, he would appear in her driveway and she would roll the window down and give him money to get him away. Eventually she even bought him a house thinking it would turn his life around. Big mistake. She remarried, and had to have her new husband kick him out of that house because he was dealing drugs and always stirring up trouble with the law. We also took him into our home several times, to no avail. Anyway, after 30 years of drug abuse, one day he announced that he was going to meetings to get off drugs, but MUST have constant access to my mother in order to be successful. Of course a mother wants nothing less than a drug addicted son to become the prodigal. We were shocked when she announced she was going to divorce her husband so that my brother could have full access to her, over the phone or in person, whenever he wanted. (Her husband could NOT tolerate this association.) So eventually she bought my brother another house and told him that if he stayed off drugs she would give him her 8 unit apartment rental. (1.7M) I was happy that he was off drugs, and encouraged my mom to teach him how to do all of things a landlord must do to maintain and rent to people. Unfortunately, my mother had a fall and hit her head. She went through rehab, but the injury caused the gradual onset of dementia. He moved in with her before the dementia was significant, because his house had a burst pipe that flooded the entire home. He systematically fired her gardener and housekeeper. He told me to stop bringing her food (I was cooking her entire week's worth of organic meals) because HE was feeding her now. He is so toxic, he has no real friends, and no woman can tolerate him. Only my mother will put up with his constant manipulation and abuse. Of course, as a master manipulator, he can turn on the charm if it benefits him. He is, as you say, a Drama KIng, who has something to rant about all of the time.

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A narcissist will tear you down and destroy your self esteem. I have had to deal with narcissists. As much as I try, I can't break them. They will keep coming at you, and they think they are invincible. They are mean and nasty. All you can do is not respond and get as far away from them as possible. Good luck.

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Funny how one can learn to do something and have no idea that there is a "name" for it.... My ex knew just what buttons to push to get me to argue with him. One time, while locked out of the house, he called and pushed those buttons... My 5yo was next to me and quietly said 'Why don't you just hang up?' I stopped and looked at her, and said gee, why didn't I think of that! I did. He would call back just to hang up on me (can we say childish???)

Once we were back in our house (he was not), he would still do this. So, during one call I paused for a bit to consider what to do/say next, knowing that the buttons had been pushed and I don't like arguing. It wasn't but a few seconds, but he chimed in with 'Aren't you going to answer me?', and I said no, because if I do we will get into an argument and I don't want to argue. He went into a TIRADE! So I calmly hung up and took the phone off the wall (unplugged) so that he could call back, it would ring for him, but not for me! Then I resumed what we were doing before he called.

This method does work, but it can be difficult to maintain it - it will take some determination and strength on your part. Inside you can be seething, but maintain calm on the outside, bored look, don't "rise" to the bait and watch them (sometimes) go ballistic. If he did that in front of me rather than on the phone, I might have actually laughed at him!!! It is basically a win if YOU bring them to this state. Then just hang up or walk away.

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"Inside you can be seething, but maintain calm on the outside, bored look, don't "rise" to the bait and watch them (sometimes) go ballistic. It is basically a win if YOU bring them to this state. Then just hang up or walk away."

Amen to this.

I keep in mind this very short sentence when the narcissist is in a tirade:

Insecurity is loud. Self-confidence is quiet.

So be quiet!

(7)

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Grey rock.
Uh, become boring to the narcissist?

I think I already have that covered. Lol.

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Hell of a deal! My late wife was like that. She'd get in my face and say:
"I hate you, why don't you die, I want you dead' and such crap. I got where when she did that, I'd reach up and twist my hand like turning her off. That really blew things up. Not long later I got hearing aids and would make a show of turning them off.

The big thing about Hate is: "Hate will destroy the hater long before the hated"
I've seen that several times. I just reply: "that means I won't have to put up with you much longer" "what do you mean?" "your hate will kill you soon". Couple neighbors, wife, a girl friend, guy at work that thought i'd one upped him and never knew what I'd done he was referring to. One thing in common: They're all dead!

I bought a big old boat and when she'd get to ragging I'd just go fishing and spend the night about 60 nights a year just to get away from it all.

I'd never heard of gray rock til this.

Here's another thing many of you may not know. Wife sprayed furniture wax in my face one day after I'd asked her to wait til I got out of the room. Since then I've had bad allergy problems. She knew strong smells attacked me bad. While she was dying from cancer she got some of the most obnoxious stinking stuff in a bottle and set it around. It took my breath so bad one day I went to the allergy clinic nearby and had to go thru three full treatments before testing showed my breath was still just a third what it should be.

When I told the dr. he called and told her: "IF you put anything out with smells that bothers him again I will call the law and report you, knowing it bothers him and still do it is the same as pulling a knife or gun on someone and the court will put you where you can't do it again". Then he wrote the same thing in a letter and had it signature to addressee ONLY so she had to sign it.

Best wishes to everyone dealing with these people.

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Amazing how far some people will go to dominate you! I agree, the object is not to hate them, but to protect yourself from being emotionally destroyed if it is not possible to go no contact. :)

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Don't give into to their wrath nor bitterness. Do not engage.

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Thank you for making me aware there is such a thing! I googled Gray Rock Technique, and it will surely help me deal with a couple of very extreme narcissists that have made me miserable for the last years. The little digs and controlling behaviors really came to light. Just reading about it made me feel stronger and in control. I hope this works well for everyone here!

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I do a visual of surrounding myself with a bubble of “healing white light” when I have to have an encounter with the “family narcissist”. I swear the negativity bounces off me and right back at the narcissist! It can’t hurt - right? 😉

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Thanks for the reminder! I used to practice this technique daily and fell out of the habit.

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I started the "gray rock" method without knowing it had a name. My mother is verbally and emotionally abusive to me, deliberately says things that she knows will hurt me the most. Over the past year I have become gradually non-responsive to her comments. She still tries to bait me into an argument , but I just say hmm, mhmm, un-huh. Most of our communication is by phone, so I can hang up when she becomes abusive. I hang up the second she starts. She lives with my brother now and he is losing his mind. he was always the golden-haired boy. Now he is the object of her hatefulness, because I refuse to subject myself to it any more. I know one cannot change a narcissist, a nasty, mean person. All I can do is control how I respond to it. I choose not to subject myself to the abuse. It took years and years for me to understand this and then to implement it. Now, I call her once a week and she still tries to engage in arguments - usually when I respond to one of her comments, especially if I disagree with her. I try never to mention any disagreement. She seems energized and even joyful when she can start an argument and then spew out her nasty, abusive remarks. So, our communication is mostly her talking and me grunting mhmmm, hmmm, u-huh. This has helped me - my blood pressure is better, my blood sugar control has never been better in my life, I feel liberated in a way.

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Like you, I used this "method" on the ex mostly and had no idea it had a name or was even identified (started about 42 yrs ago, continued until kids were "emancipated", so no more need for contact.) I used to call it the "Leave it to Beaver" type dad method - he sits reading the paper while the wife prattles on and he interjects with mmm-hmmm, uh-huhs, yes dears.... Just enough to let the wife think he was listening...

Before our mother developed dementia, phone calls and visits were often negative, but she was lambasting everyone and his/her mother (gee, now that I write this, I wonder where my OB got this habit!!!) I just let her go on and on. I also figure she was talking negatively about me to others as well. Once in a while I tried defending the others, but usually not. It would be futile. I had such a store of negative crap in my head - certainly can't repeat it to those people she was talking about. I used to think gee, if all those family and friends knew what you really think, you'd be soooo alone, no one would want to be around you! But she'd put on the nicey-nice face and entertain them, then talk behind their backs. Pretty scummy.

The last time she brought up my former SIL, I swore the next time she starts on that topic I was going to tear her a new one! They had been divorced for years and she never took a dime from my brother (I suspect now I know why she left!) She also criticized my other SIL, mostly surmising what SHE thought of her. The bigger issue for me was that the first SIL passed away in the hospital after some kind of surgery years before all mom's more recent negative crap. Jeez mom, the woman is DEAD, LET IT GO!!! I didn't get the chance though. She started down the yellow brick road and hasn't mentioned her since (thankful for that at least!!!)

Some people wonder why I wouldn't even consider home care... NOPE! I am the one who handles/manages everything for her, see to her care and do the visiting, but even that is getting tedious - before the oh-she-raised-you people start: She's very hard of hearing so just trying to have a simple conversation is torturous (esp when they laundered her hearing aid and lost the replacement in about 2 weeks.) Previously I could tolerate the repetition and having to get around some of the hearing issues, but it wasn't too bad then. I got her a little LCD tablet that I can write on and hope for response (nothing if SHE doesn't want to address it.) She is pig-headed about most everything. She had some falls and refuses to stand or walk with the walker now (we had her checked, no pain, no real injury, OT/PT ordered.) When OT/PT came, she refused to even make a simple try. Told THEM to do what they wanted her to do. When I said you need to walk, she replied I DO. She does NOT. She sits in the transport chair and either waits for someone to push her around or scoots it along with her feet if no one is around to move her. I tried to give her a note to encourage walking so she won't end up in a wheelchair. She tossed it away without even reading it. NO WAY will she live in my house. I have enough to get through the day myself without having sad sack there criticizing everything, complaining about everything and demanding to be waited on hand&foot. She will NOT do something she should do if SHE makes up her mind that she isn't going to do it. I do NOT need that kind of behavior around me. She'd also be stuck in my house all the time as she cannot do stairs and the only access is a full flight (so she couldn't even get in!) If she needs help to get up, down or about in any way, I cannot support her weight either. No walk-in tub/shower. House is only half renovated, no money to get it finished, plus I have cats (she HATES pets), so it isn't a safe place for her. If she fell, she'd not only take me down, but probably crush me too!

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It's amazing that she made you trustee and not your crazy brother. My mother has severe NPD and had my sociopath sister as trustee for 30 years until the whole world was screaming NO and she changed it to another of her flying monkeys.

As an emotional person, gray rock is hard for me but you get better with practice. Visit as little as possible, avoid being around when her suck-ups, yes people and sychophants are there. Talk as little as possible and use a neutral tone of voice. Tell her only good things about your life--don't admit flaws or problems--they'll use it to smear you. Don't let them see that you are in pain, depressed or hurt--they'll enjoy it and feast on your wounds. Leave as soon as possible and stay gone as long as you can. Don't try to convince her of what's wrong or right--they don't care. Use the system to force to do things she needs to do but won't. For instance, my mother was driving almost-blind and wouldn't stop. She didn't care that she might kill someone so I turned her in to the DMV and they revoked her license.

I was completely estranged for 15 years and then went back for almost three years to try again. It was worse than before so I left again and will not be going back, ever. She's ruined the whole family so there's nothing there anyway.

Good luck. I hope you don't have to endure this much longer!

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Sounds more like you had a grey MOUNTAIN!!! ;-)

For many of us, being kind, helpful, etc is second nature, but when they take advantage or verbally abuse you, I would certainly not stick around. It was good of you to give it a second chance so many years later, sad that it wasn't any different. No real loss for you at this point.

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I think some people I've come accross in life are just plain old selfish - but today I met what has to be a full Narcisstic. Now I get it - & this was just a fleeting meeting!

I had read about 'grey rock' on this forum & tried it out today. She first tried oh pity me, then charm, then oh pity me again, looked confused... then tried charm again & finally tantrum. I left the room at that. GREAT tool! (I'll need to practice).

I was exhausted after 10 mins with this beast... like meeting an octopus who charms you closer then tries to squeeze the life out of you.

If NO contact is not possible, then LOW as can be contact + grey rock.

Thankyou for raising this topic.

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Your description is precisely what my brother is like. Exhausting!

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Does anyone have experience going Gray Rock when you can't go no contact?

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