If my dad transfers all of his assets to his children and step-children, can the nursing home ask us for repayment?

As I understand it, if your father divests himself of all his assets and then applies for Medicaid to pay his NH fees, then Medicaid will decline his claim for a penalty period calculated according to how much your father has given away. So your father, or his family, will have to meet the full cost for that period. Some states do have filial responsibility laws which could make his family liable if they try to evade payments which they could easily meet by, for example, using the assets given them by their father.

If your father is thinking of transferring his assets and defaulting on his contract with the NH...

I'm sorry: could you explain exactly what the plan is, here? Seriously, is your father (or his family) looking for a simple way out of paying for his care, which is what you've made it sound a lot like?

No he wants to make sure all 8, yes 8 receive equal shares of the assets. My concern is if he needed NH care prior to 60 month look back period, and Medicaid was not approved due to transfer , could the facility come to the 8 who rec'd $ for reimbursement.
My concern is two fold. One, what if some were unable to payback, and Two, if so would others have to make it up.  My fear is that biological children would be held more accountable.
and if that is so would biological kids be more liable than step children. I am trying to decide if I accept none of it does that release me of any liability

Why do I feel like everyone is so defensive on this site, I am just asking a question, not trying to cheat the system.

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure they couldn't come after you personally as being jointly and severally liable for the whole sum of the penalty and/or fees; though maybe - certainly morally - for the money gifted to you. Which would give you two obvious layman's options:

1. Take and bank your share, and don't touch it, and be ready to give it back if it's called on.
2. Corral your seven - Lord! - siblings into a room and don't let them out until they've agreed to join you in prevailing on your father not to be a fat-head. He should keep his money in case he needs it during his lifetime; and deal with the equal division of any remaining estate in his will.

Or... does he have any long term care insurance? Any dedicated funds for his own care?

Sorry - it's just the very brief question did sound an awful lot like that! Glad to know it's completely different :)

So looking at your post on the other thread, your father wants all children and step children to inherit equal shares in his estate; but he would like to advance one or more children part or all of their respective legacies now, and thinks the fairest way to do that is to divvy up his assets among all his heirs? Does it really have to be the whole lot?

Perhaps he'd do best to consult an estate planning specialist (lawyer or accountant). I'm sure there will be a way to do this that keeps the risks to a minimum, with provisos in case of.. oh, who knows, fire, flood, global banking collapse, whatever; but his current idea seems a bit gung-ho.

The answer is fairly simple. If your father could not qualify for Medicaid because he had transferred all his assets to the children, then he would not be able to afford to go into a NH. He would have no money left and Medicaid wouldn't cover him for a while. Unless the children paid out of pocket, other arrangements would have to be made for his care. Is he concerned that dividing assets among the children could not be done with a will? If he wants to give a couple their share of the estate now, then he can leave them out of the will. The bad thing about that is that he could incur a penalty if he needs Medicaid, and if he does have to go into the NH, then there could be little left to leave the others at the end.

This is my suggestion. Do the transfers and then make a plan for all 8 to collectively be responsible to take care of Dad. Period

Plan it out so that each of the 8 know exactly which months of each year they will have Dad living with them..and they will provide the care that Dad needs.

Make a contract...all sign.

Then..proceed to do with the assets your Dad needs for his care as you wish...since you all will provide that care at no cost to him when he needs it.

Now..Medicaid is not in the picture...nor a nursing home. No more worry about taking those assets that Dad will need....you will make sure he doesn't need them. Problem solved.

Sounds like a good plan to me, katiekate, if everyone could work together like that. But it might be like herding cats.

Bingo KatieKate and JessieBell on the corral.
All is fine now and I am sure they would sign a contract.
I have learned a contract is only as good as the paper it is written on. If the others, let's say 4 had no assets left then we would be in same boat. It is not a lot of money and my brothers and I think he should keep his money anyway.
I am going to opt out of the asset party pot and hope Dad understands.

I agree that he needs to keep his money, for his own health care. My mother lived to be 96. Her health care was expensive, but that is what her money was for.

One thing you may suggest is that the father makes an interest-free loan to the two who need or want the money. The loan would need to be paid back if he needed it for care. And if he didn't, the loan would be deducted from an amount they would receive in the will. That would probably keep everyone covered. They would have to sign the loan agreement. Maybe they would be okay with it, since it would only come due if he needed it. And who knows? Maybe they would even do in-home care to keep from paying back the loan. It could work for everyone in the end.

No offense, but I bet that out of 8 at least 2 will spend the money immediately, so you cannot count on it being available for payback if needed.
If when needed medicaid is denied, realize the NH has no obligation to keep dad without payment - so he can be legally evicted.
Try to convince him not to divest assets while he is alive.

This situation has the potential for a major F-up if I ever saw one! Well - read one. Anyhoo-

This has to be an all or no one decision for everyone involved or you're gonna have - well, a major F-up. Sorry! Let's say some took dads gift and some didn't. Dad needs NH care but he doesn't have much money to last and Medicaid says "so sorry - try again in 15 months". What the heck are you suspose to do with dad?

Ask the siblings who took the money to pay it back? Yeah, right. Ask the siblings who took the money to care for dad in their home? Good luck with that. OR are the same sensible siblings who did NOT take the money gonna be stuck ponying up the money to keep dad in the NH? Maybe. Or are these same sensible sibling gonna figure out how they are going to split the duty of caring for dad in their home? I'd bet on that one. All the while, the siblings who took the money are no shows for respite care, visits with dad or even a phone call. Cause I'm pretty sure that's how they'll be cause if they really cared about dad, they wouldn't have taken the money in the first place.

Do more than opting out. Figure out a way to end this nonsense. Otherwise you can count on being sucked into the drama and heartache that sure to occur if dad follows through on handing out inheritances while he's still ticking. Know how I know? Cause you cared enough to come here and ask this question in the first place.

It would be almost a miracle if all 8 siblings were capable of caregiving and also had a suitable environment for an elder who needs nursing home level care. Plus the idea of passing Dad around for a month here and the next month there may be very detrimental to his health. If his impairment happens to be dementia, going to 8 homes in rotation would be an absolute disaster. (I love all 5 of my kids/step-kids. But the idea of spending a month with each of them in rotation makes me want to cry, and I don't even have dementia or a serious illness.)

If Dad is so concerned with equal treatment of the heirs, giving a couple of them money now and subtracting that amount from the will definitely risk inequality. There is no saying how much will be left for anyone to inherit. If Dad develops a chronic condition the saving could easily be wiped out.

How do the rest of you feel about the sibs that need money now? Would you be OK with Dad simply giving them the money? My mother sometimes gave money to our needy (mentally ill) brother. None of us cared or expected equal gifts. In fact, we often slipped little gifts to this brother ourselves. (We are not talking large sums here.) How would that work in your family? This still could cause a problem for Medicaid, but not nearly as big a problem as giving away all his assets would be.

Dad needs to keep his assets. There is no telling what he will need over the course of the rest of his life. If there is anything left over, that can be divided eight ways via the will.

I know that I'm preaching to the choir here. You don't want him to give away his assets. Doing so could cause all kinds of problems. Is there a non-family member your father would take seriously who could advise him? Sometimes parents dismiss advice from their children! Seeing an estate planner might be a good idea, too. If Dad is convinced the 8 will be treated equally, maybe that will reassure him and deter him from giving assets away prematurely.

If there is no money for a nursing home and ineligibility for Medicaid, the nursing home will simply not accept Dad, or if he can pay for a while they will evict him when the money runs out. They won't come after his children unless one or more of them have signed a guarantee to pay for his care. Without that they just won't let him run up a big bill.

Let us hope that Dad lives to a ripe old age in excellent health, that he never needs long term care, and that there is a nice estate for all of you to inherit. That would be the ideal situation. Unfortunately you need to plan for an alternate scenario, just in case!

The nursing home will discharge him if he can't pay.

Yes, there are certain assets that they can be recovered from you if Medicaid is paying his bill and if the assets were transferred in a certain timeframe. It used to be in PA at least the assets had to be transferred five years prior to Medicaid being used but it could be longer now?? I would definitely ask an attorney before doing anything.

If he's still cognizant have you considered his options like assisted living? Be very careful when it comes to assets--see an eldercare attorney.

In NY they have a period a 5 yrs look back and come after everything your parent has, had or gave away!! My brother and I went to a lawyer and put our names on the deed and had to wait 5 yrs until they couldn't come after our mothers home. Now they want to raise it to 7 yrs so they can come after her money and home after 7 yrs. You must go to a lawyer and set it up first in NY. What a lovely country we live in!! Other people in other countries don't have to worry about this it's paid with your taxes. And the money goes to quickly because it's so expense (rip off) and then when nothing is left they try to kick you parent out before they have to go on medicaid!!!!! We went through this with my mother-in-law and hope we don't have to with my mother. Boy, medicaid harasses you!!!

So, Biomidkid, have any of these comments helped you decide what to do?

My husband Coy and I have told our kids all along that whatever is left to inherit will be divided evenly among them. Our wills state this. But there is an element of trust involved. Now that Coy has died nothing would stop me to change my will to give everything to my biological sons and leave my stepdaughters out completely. Nothing, that is, except my love for them and my desire to live up to Coy's expectation. One son is beneficiary to a small insurance policy, with the idea that will cover my cremation etc and any leftover should be divided among the 5 of them. Of course this relies on trust, too. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that he will handle it as instructed.

We have also told them all along not to expect much, if anything, as an inheritance. We planned to spend our own money while we were alive!

I really don't understand your dad's worry about all the kids getting equal inheritance. If he writes his will that way, why wouldn't that happen? Is there someone who might contest the will? If he doesn't have a will, only his biological kids will inherit (I think) but that is easily prevented by having a will. Is there some element of distrust here?

So I really don't understand his reasoning about giving away his assets now. What is that actually about?

The only conundrum I see here is what to do about the 2 who need money now. And any solution to that will have less Medicaid consequences than giving everything away.

I sure hope you are able to convince Dad to do the sensible thing and just ensure equal division of assets when he dies.

I was actually trying to be facetious.

The point was...if you take away his ability to care for himself...you had better be prepared to take care of him yourself...cause Medicaid won't because of the movement of those assets.

Most right thinking adults would understand that NOT taking his money and assets is the only sane choice.

Katiekate, I should have realized that your response was not actual advice! Sorry. Sometimes tone doesn't come across well in written responses.

The best thing is to get solid advice from an estate attorney not only for the reason Medicaid could eventually come into play but when dealing with biological and step children things always get complicated. Solid legal advice is best to save yourself alot of headache.

See a lawyer, see a lawyer, see a lawyer.

we were advised there is a time-frame to be considered.

I just recently learned, it isn't the nursing home taking the assets - it's Medicare trying to recoup their expenses. No, I don't know how true it is, but this is from a friend going through it.

If Medicare is paying for the Nursing Home, then you will need to deal with the time frame or they can demand all the monies back.

Your bank manager could help you with this - ours helped us immensely and made wonderful suggestions.

Raylin, it is MediCAID, not MediCARE. Medicare does not pay for custodial care, i.e. nursing home. Nursing homes are paid by MediCAID and MediCAID attempts to recover monies paid to NH or doctors on behalf of patients after they pass away from their estate. You always have the option not to involve MediCAID if you don't want to lose assets, but then your family or you will have to pay privately/out of pocket for your care.

If your dad transfers large sums of money and has nothing to pay the nursing home, and applies for Medicaid within 60 months of such transfer, Medicaid will disqualify him for a long time (depending on what state you live in and how much was transferred). During the penalty period the nursing home will want to be paid privately; if your father cannot pay, he will not be admitted. Unlike hospital emergency rooms, nursing homes are not required to take in indigent patients (that's what Medicaid is supposed to be for, the payment to the nursing homes for indigent patients). As a result, your father will be refused admittance to any nursing home; they are not in the business of charity.

@Guestshopadmin - MediCaid vs MediCARE really isn't the question here.

Thank you for your "legal advice" - but this person still needs to seek professional advice - there IS a time-frame that the monies can be taken back and even worse, they can refuse care. If you don't think this is true, start asking questions.

As Executrix for my Dad's "Estate" - I was even advised that I would personally be responsible for all bills as long as there was supposed to be money in his accounts. I was told, under no circumstances was I to dispense his monies until after Probate.

Even the VA Nursing Home will take the home and assets in return for taking the patient. YES, I did ask and was given forms to fill out. Just FYI, the VA is all 50 states, so we're not dealing with a state law here.

And that isn't Medicare or Medicaid - that is the VA.

Thankfully, I was able to keep my Dad at home for the full 7+ years.

@Guestshopadmin - MediCaid vs MediCARE really isn't the question here.
And yes, Medicare does pay towards Nursing Home Care.

Thank you for your "legal advice" - but this person still needs to seek professional advice - there IS a time-frame that the monies can be taken back and even worse, they can refuse care. If you don't think this is true, start asking questions.

As Executrix for my Dad's "Estate" - I was even advised that I would personally be responsible for all bills as long as there was supposed to be money in his accounts. I was told, under no circumstances was I to dispense his monies until after Probate.

Even the VA Nursing Home will take the home and assets in return for taking the patient. YES, I did ask and was given forms to fill out. Just FYI, the VA is all 50 states, so we're not dealing with a state law here.

And that isn't Medicare or Medicaid - that is the VA.

Thankfully, I was able to keep my Dad at home for the full 7+ years.

No way will all 8 save the money to help pay for dad. He needs to keep his money and pay for what he needs. All the kids are adults and need to take care of themselves and their own families. Your dad sounds like a nice man but he needs to worry about himself and not do something that will almost surely cause a rift between his kids. No matter what they all say now...someone will default and someone will get angry.