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So I have things set up that the majority of his money is in a separate account and I hold the card to that, and then there is a smaller account that he can use.



He definitely is in the phase of whatever this is (dementia not yet diagnosed) where he wants instant gratification. This has been a problem for me, because even though he lives nearby in AL, I have a job and a family and a life and I can't drop everything because he decides he wants a new shirt. So instead he shops online. I have stressed over and over again that if he's going to do that, he needs to shop only at trusted retailers, and not just google stuff he wants. He insists he only shops at Amazon and Walmart.



The card history tells a different story. Especially since he's gotten his card canceled five times in the past 18 months because of fraudulent transactions.



Every time this happens, he blames me. "I only shop online because I don't want to bother you." "I had to buy this online because you said you couldn't take me shopping until the weekend." etc and so forth. (Keep in mind I still go shopping for him, and with him — if he needs clothes, I take him to the mall, if he needs every day items, I'll get them with my regular shopping and drop them off. It's the I NEED THIS THING THIS SECOND part that I am refusing to do)



I'm reticent to restrict his finances any more than I already have because the last time I tried to put on some additional restrictions (more by accident than anything else) he called my sister and said I was keeping him from his money and she reported me to the AL for elder abuse and I had to leave work and go to a meeting with the director.



I kind of want to wash my hands of it, and just say, fine, here's all the info, I'm no longer involved in your finances. Or the next time we get a fraud alert, just ignore it. But I know that's the wrong thing to do and if all his money goes away, he will be unable to pay for AL.



I just want him to stop using the card on those dodgy web sites!



What do I do next?

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You have 2 options.
Provide him only with a preloaded card, or one that has a very low amount that he can charge.
Restrict his internet.
Is your sister FULLY aware of what he is doing, his finances? (If you are POA technically you do not have to share with her but she should be aware so that she does not think you are "abusing him financially"
Or if you truly want to wash your hands of this...let sister take over if she is capable and trustworthy.
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My only advice is to get POA if you do not have it. I would not take on responsibility for finances without it. I agree with Grandma1957 on the preloaded card &/or internet restriction (might be hard to do if he’s in AL?). POA will give you the authority to legally make decisions to protect his assets - even from him.
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*It sounds like YOU hold financial POA for dad when you say, "So I have things set up that the majority of his money is in a separate account and I hold the card to that, and then there is a smaller account that he can use." If so, YOU hold the purse strings to his money and your sister has NO SAY in any of this! Just sayin'.


Your sister sounds truly like a horse's arse. I'd call HER and give HER all of this burden over her father's erratic spending habits and then call the AL to report her for elder abuse when things go south.

If you don't like that idea, close out dad's card entirely and let the chips fall where they may. Keep track of all these fraud alerts so you can show them to the AL when your sister calls them again to report you. The man is obviously not competent to shop online, and you're protecting him, not abusing him.

Then have dad assessed for cognitive issues. When he's diagnosed with dementia, then everyone will agree he should not have a credit card at all.

And you may want to remind your sister that if dad gives all his money away to scammers, #1, there will be no more money to pay for AL and he'll have to move in with HER, and #2, there will be no funds left for her inheritance.

That's usually enough of a wake up call to stop them from making 'elder abuse' types of phone calls.

Good luck
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Wash your hands of the whole sh*tshow. Put your your do-nothing 'watchdog' sister who has so much to say.
So now give her so much to do.
Let her have full control of your father's finances to administer as she sees fit.
Or tell the AL facility they can have POA if they want it.
When he gets scammed out of all his money by the Nigerian prince or because he "won" the Australian lottery (an old scam from when the internet was a baby), so be it.
Not your problem anymore.
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lealonnie1 Jan 2023
Wait a minute........you mean that email I got from the Nigerian prince telling me I won the lottery wasn't real???????????????????? Darn.
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Doingmybest.

What a nightmare! And this is when you wish that you were an only child, right?

If you are the person in control of dad’s money, then your sister should not be interfering.

Parents often play one against the other and it is never a good outcome.

So sorry that you are dealing with this mess. I hope that you find a solution soon.

Best wishes to you and your family.
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I hate that so many old people are so selfish and foolishly stupid with money. These are the same old people that would balk at having to pay their adult child to take care of them.

Wasting his money on useless crap and then giving you hell because you are trying to preserve his money for his assisted living.

And the nerve if the assisted living calling you in like you are a damn criminal. If his card gets compromised afain don't help him with it. Let him figure it out.

And kudos to you for setting boundaries and not jumping when he says jump.
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BurntCaregiver Jan 2023
@sp19690

You are exactly right. I can't tell you how many care clients I had who thought they didn't have to pay their bill to me in full for their services.
I always got my money.
I remember one client in particular. I was taking her to the beauty parlor for a hair cut. She had 'X' amount of money to spend yet wanted highlights done, a manicure, and her eyebrows done.
The beauty salon people tried to shame me into "lending" her the money for the other services because she's old and it would make her happy.
Nope.
They were told by me that if they wanted to do these things free out of the goodness of their hearts they could. Or they could call her daughter and get a credit card they could bill for the services.
There were no highlights, manicures, or eyebrows getting done that day. The hairdresser didn't even get a tip because my client wasn't given enough money to pay for her haircut and leave a tip.
The family figured I'd just give her a few bucks if she ran short.
Nope.
I learned that lesson with elderly people and their families the hard way.
No one borrows a single cent from me for any reason.
If the OP's father wants to spend his money on crap and nonsense, go right ahead. If the OP does not have POA, then she's lucky and should either let him recklessly spend until he's broke, or let the sister take over the responsibility.
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Block QVC and HSN
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I think there are 2 issues.
1. Who has responsibility for Dad's money?
2. Is Dad deemed capable of making financial decisions?

The smaller parts will be;
1.1 Is the POA active? Or does it spring only if Dad seemed no longer capable?

2.1 What is Dad capable of regarding financials? Property & legal? No? Bills? No? Day to day small spending? Lunch out, gifts, new shirt??

You could go a few ways.

A full neuro-psych eval would highlight just what Dad's processing, planning & decision making skills are. A very useful tool. Hopefully the knowledge will bring agreement with Sister?

Or you could skip that. Save the money, time & stress on Dad. Set some new reasonable limits that get agreed all round by yourselves.

My gut feeling, with that 'I need it now' vibe, is his short term memory is far worse than you think. That his planning & processing is also worse. That he is at risk of fraud big time.

I'm really liking that pre-paid card idea.

A set SMALL amount he gets per WEEK. He can blow this on what he likes. Like a teenager really. If he spends it all on new socks Monday & has none to buy a shirt til next Monday, so be it.

The scale of freedom vs duty of care is hard. But with the stacking up notifications from the bank, I think you know what direction this is heading. Being the bad guy/gal is not a task anyone wants - blame the bank.
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A couple of suggestions:

1) Are you on bad terms with your sister? Can you explain the problem to her? Your father may have been very credible when he talked to her, and she may not have understood. Unless it’s pure spite on her part, you should be able to avoid it happening again.

2) I’d write out the arrangements clearly, because they obviously make sense. I use a debit card myself when I go shopping, because I have lost a credit card before when it had a high limit on it, and I feel safer with a $500 debit card. If you get queried again, fax or email the written explanation. It may avoid having to leave work for a meeting.
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ConnieCaretaker Jan 2023
Credit cards are protected, debit cards are not.
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How frustrating!

Amazon remembers the card information, so it should only have to be entered if the number is replaced. I thought Walmart did the same.

If he really agrees to shop at a limited number of sites, he shouldn’t even need the actual card.

So it should be self reinforcing that he can only shop at approved sites once you have set them up with the card number. I imagine these as debit cards with no access to overdraft, etc.

Maybe get a second personal account for an emergency backup card for unapproved sites, with an even more limited balance available?

I respect your commitment to making it possible for him to exercise what independence he can while protecting the assets that cover his needs from being dissipated.

I hope you can continue to find a way to let him enjoy access to his spending money.
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DoingMyBest73 Jan 2023
That is actually a great idea … set up the accounts but keep the card. I mean he’ll hate it, but that might be one of the next steps
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I strongly suggest you have him tested for cognition and memory so that you (and your butt-insky sister) know what you're dealing with. Based on the info you provided, my money is on the beginnings of dementia. But getting a physical will discount any other medical reasons for his behavior (and there are some).

Next, you (and your sister) should watch some Teepa Snow videos on YouTube to learn about dementia so that you can stop expecting your Dad to be the same person he was last year or 5 years ago -- he's not and can never be that person again no matter how many times you explain or insist on things. He can't learn new things. He can't even retain the stuff he already has. His newest memories go first, his oldest memories fade last. That's how this dementia thing goes.

Dementia means he is daily losing his abilities of reason, logic, memory, empathy and inhabitions. So, he's not even maintaining, he is actively losing. Every day. You will drive yourself mad if you don't see him with different eyes now. There are strategies for you to learn how to better engage with him for more peaceful and productive interactions. Everything about dementia is hard, but if you don't keep up with the learning curve, you will burn out. I wish you much wisdom and peace in your heart.
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If sister is so adamant that you’re financially abusing him, then she should manage the money!
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Thanks for all the great responses! Lots of good ideas. A few notes on questions:
1. yes I have POA but it’s really only supposed to trigger when he’s incapacitated — which he was on summer 2021, and why I moved him to AL
2. I have limits on the debit card in terms of the amount he can spend per day but that doesn’t solve the fraudulent web site problem. Also he refuses to track his spending so when he hits the limit he goes ballistic on me. More limits mean more tantrums. And I hate the drama.
3. we had a neuro work up and they said it was “age related cognitive decline.” He can’t get a brain MRI to check for Alzheimer’s because of the type of pacemaker he has. His primary feels he has symptoms but the neuro is not as convinced. It’s … a process, as I’m sure you guys know. And I don’t know if a diagnosis would really help since he would insist it was incorrect.
4. my sister views any involvement in my dad’s life besides the occasional phone call as a huge inconvenience and will believe anything he says about me. He calls her to complain because he likes the attention. To be honest, I think she ignores a lot of his calls and emails *unless* he’s got a grievance against me, so she basically encourages it.
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I'm in a similar boat and I got my mom a pre-paid debit card called True Link. There are about a million "parental controls" you can set up. True Link automatically blocks all transactions from the categories you tell it to. You can even set individual protocols for individual businesses. It's ten bucks a month and 100 percent worth it.
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Learn how to set up site filters on his computer and then do it. Parents do this to keep young children away from internet sites. And read the other suggestions here. Be careful that his personal info is not compromised. You could end up with identity theft that needs cleaning up (not fun, and I had to do it TWICE for my mother because she refused to stop paying scammers). Good luck!
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Ssounds like your dad is not able to manage his financial affairs anymore. Have him evaluated by his doctor for dementia or whatever is his condition.

Do you have POA for him?? And your sister needs to back off, or as I call it, "xxck off" and mind her Own Business!!

Does your Dad have Lifelock for identity protection?

And, be careful about his spending should he need go to Medicaid level. He should be paying for just basic care.
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Since he has a computer. Maybe a computer activity OFFLINE rather than ONLINE shopping. Just a thought: specific downloaded computer games can be a source of distraction and instant gratification. Point, click and find the object. Rack up points, move to next level. Match objects, draw lines between like objects, etc. My mom used to enjoy tile match games and solitaire. Because they were purchased and downloaded they did not have ads.
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You need to learn how to block his computer / on line usage.
Find a computer consultant who can do this.
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Need to buy him a gift card that shows Amazon or Walmart. That way he cannot shop anywhere else.
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Can you forward your sister the info on the sites, charges, etc? I doubt your father explained your reasoning to her. You might ask her for advice about how to manage this matter. When I was in similar shoes, I found most people wanted to be sidewalk supervisors not workers. When asked to assume some of the concerns, they often became quieter.,
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He’s not going to stop unless you change Something.

Block the internet completely. If he can get apps, download Walmart and Amazon, and any others places he likes to shop that are safe. He can use his card to buy things there.

If he can’t get apps, get help setting up parental controls, as if he’s a child. That’s the way his brain is functioning now, it seems, no executive function. That should block everything but the safe sites you pick for him.

Remember, you can do this as POA. Tell him the bank is having a fit and threatening to cut him off.
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My mom was the same way but i was lucky because she didn't know how to use the computer; and would bring me flyers or tell me about stuff from tv that she wanted; some things i would buy turned out to be junk; you have to explain to him with what is going on a lot of places other than major retailers are not being honest; not giving you options of returning things, not selling what is advertised, etc. it is really bad because no government authority is there to watch these sellers and even if there was there are so so so many; even on major online retail sellers their screening process is getting worked around for these sellers to commit fraud; its better if he just goes in the store to buy what he wants; but sometimes elderly see these deals and revert back to when they were 16 looking through the pennysaver and seeing something to good to be true, explain times haven't changed in regards to this but just got more rampant.
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My MIL’s assisted living said she could not have anything of value in her apartment, no jewelry, and we expected no credit or debit cards. We had those canceled. We did not get a phone for her.

There were very specific reasons for doing what we did.

My MIL thought assisted living was a temporary stopover befo moving to our home. We never said it was. She is never moving in with us.

She is a hoarder and would have spent all her money and had nothing left buying crap nobody wants. Instead the funds are being used for her maintenance.

No phone means she can’t harass anyone. She used to call 911 all the time for her delusions thinking someone was breaking in to steal her dog or rape her or that her house was haunted.

The police were going to take her in for a mental evaluation if she didn’t stop calling 911. Nobody is coming to take her dog though every one wishes it were gone and no one wants to rape her. She is a lonely old woman who needs medication to treat her anxieties and strange and bizarre mental symptoms.

She didn’t know how to use a cell phone or smart phone or computer, so we didn’t have to worry about that but if she did, we would have put parental controls on them so she wouldn’t be able access certain sites and not given her access to her accounts, since she never really had to pay a bill in her life. When FIL died, she didn’t know there was a water bill, gas bill, electric bill, cable/telephone bill, and whatever other utilities. Her son had to figure it out to settle the estate. She was supposed to be the one doing that, but it was beyond her.

This is why do it yourself wills or basic wills are a rotten idea. The people don’t know what they are getting themselves into in their old age.

If they had had an estate attorney or a family attorney like a family doctor, which they they didn’t have either, it would have been easier.
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DoingMyBest73: Perchance your father's financial institution, the issuer of his credit card, is going to be suspect of the fraudulent transactions even moreso with the reissuing of the cc five times in eighteen months. Your father requires a medical dx for his suspected dementia.
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Spend time with him in front of a computer, helping him go to the correct websites that are reliable: ebay, walmart, amazon, grocery store, pizza hut, etc. Put them in an easy to find Favorites for him.

Make sure his computer does NOT save the addresses in his history so that the dodgy websites won't come up automatically anymore. Delete them from the history. Do you understand? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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I don't think he is being selfish or foolish. I think he is beginning to suffer from age-related effects on memory and planning. Get him a card with a limit and make it a joint account so you can check on his charges. Warn him when he's running low on funds.

I don't blame him from spending time at the computer. There are all sorts of games to play and sites to read and even contribute to with advice he can offer to fellow residents. How do you expect him to spend his time? He needs some mental stimulation and activities that he can look forward to.
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Place child protective "locks" on his computer to thwart scams. Maybe make 1 day a week "shopping day" with you and put it on a calendar that he can see daily. He might not use it, but it is worth a shot. Another option is to get a reloadable gift card from AmEx, Visa, or MC with a certain amount you reload on a weekly basis. Then, he can only use up to the amount on the card.
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